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Is too much commonality ruining the S-Class? Is the S-Class just a C-Class with more interior space and a higher price tag? If you think about it, all of the interiors look identical. The exteriors all kind of look the same as well except for the size. Has Mercedes homogenized itself too much?
My answer: Yes.
There needs to be some uniqueness to the interior and tech for each model, same for the exterior (having a third LED in the headlights doesn’t count). There should be some fundamental engineering differences as well that makes the E and S-Class stand apart from each other.
The below was from a recent Reddit post (and he posted his sources).
The news guy is here, once again. New Corporate News on Mercedes - its not looking good.
Hey everyone!
I already posted quite a few news a few days ago in this subreddit. To my surprise, apart from some insults, the feedback in general was great. Thats why I thought I could update you guys on here more frequently Here are the lastest news, literally from today and yesterday on Mercedes:
* Mercedes is reducing production of its S-Class luxury sedan strongly due to declining demand. Starting October 2024, the production at the Sindelfingen plant in Germany will shift from two shifts to only one. This follows a 22% drop in S-Class sales in the first half of 2024 compared to the previous year. Despite the car's previous success, including high margins on Maybach variants, the luxury strategy is underperforming, especially in key markets like East Asia.
* Mercedes reported a decline in vehicle sales for the second quarter of 2024 (compared to same quarter 2023), particularly in luxury models. The revenue dropped by nearly 4% to €36.7 billion compared to the previous year. Operating profit before interest and taxes (EBIT) fell by 19% to €4.04 billion, and the overall profit decreased by 16% to €3.06 billion. The company has adjusted its profitability expectations for 2024, reducing forecasts for its car segment while slightly raising them for vans (new vans coming).
* Mercedes has reached an agreement with its works council regarding the potential sale of company-owned branches, strongly against advice of fans and employees. This agreement addresses key issues for approximately 8,000 affected employees, ensuring retention of their pay, work conditions, and holiday entitlements. It also includes protection against layoffs until 2029. The deal stipulates that branches will only be sold to buyers adhering to automotive industry tariffs, with an average one-time compensation of about €85,000 per employee. There are currently no specific buyers, but interested parties exist. This will help cut even more costs in the future with the aim of getting higher margins out of the company.
If you like news like these, I'd be more than happy to invite you to my [Newsletter](https://carsandgrowth.beehiiv.com/) where I'll update you guys weekly about all types on news like these No ads, no spam, nothing. Just pure infos.
Interesting read and take. I can't disagree with both commonality and reliability/quality. Too many similarities between the lower lines and the S. Are there elements of the S that are unique to the line? Sure. But not enough. Safe to say the 223 was a disappointment to many customers. If things were different we would likely have one in our garage today
As for reduction in production, this is very telling. All anyone needs to know. This is after all the flagship of the brand and for decades was the best luxury sedan on the world. Not so anymore. Seems like MB is literally killing it. I'd love to see a new and improved W224!
2022 S580, Range Rover full sized, retired (Ferraris, lamborghini, Bentley, RR, Porsche etc, etc...)
Me thinks sedans are going the way of the dodo bird in general. But yes, MB has diluted the brand. It’s fallen below Porsche and now MB sells you sausages, pick your size.
Have you driven a new C Class? Its nothing like an S Class. They drive totally different, the interiors are similar but not at all identical, material quality and comfort are completely different. The S Class is the sales leader in the segment, its just a dininishing segment and with high interest rates and global unrest and economic concerns people pul back from buying extremely expensive luxury items like this.
This is also not new for MB. MB Sedans have ALWAYS come in small, medium, big. Always. I have always confused them from a distance.
2022 S580, Range Rover full sized, retired (Ferraris, lamborghini, Bentley, RR, Porsche etc, etc...)
Originally Posted by SW20S
Have you driven a new C Class? Its nothing like an S Class. They drive totally different, the interiors are similar but not at all identical, material quality and comfort are completely different. The S Class is the sales leader in the segment, its just a dininishing segment and with high interest rates and global unrest and economic concerns people pul back from buying extremely expensive luxury items like this.
This is also not new for MB. MB Sedans have ALWAYS come in small, medium, big. Always. I have always confused them from a distance.
I’ve owned the S580 for 2.5 years. It is a beautiful drive and agreed neither the C or the E drive like the S. The S580 is great when it’s working. Too much technology, not enough common sense.
The other way they’ve diluted the brand is when you take it in for service. You are in the same line as some who paid less than one third of what you paid.
When things go seriously wrong like my car being in the shop for 30 days this year, MB Customer service sucks (look at the other posts on this forum). The people who handle complaints treat you like you’ve purchased the lowest Common denominator of the car. Part of The reason you buy these cars and pay the premiums is so that you get the service on the other end.
Exclusivity is gone, MB products are a dime a dozen. They all look the same, unless you’re really close or a car guy who knows the various models.
Perhaps, some of the above problems would be acceptable if quality and reliability was there. It’s not. Quality is way below BMW, Porsche, even Genesis. Look at the latest 3 year JD Power reliability scores. This is my last MB unless things improve dramatically.
I’ve owned the S580 for 2.5 years. It is a beautiful drive and agreed neither the C or the E drive like the S. The S580 is great when it’s working. Too much technology, not enough common sense.
The other way they’ve diluted the brand is when you take it in for service. You are in the same line as some who paid less than one third of what you paid.
When things go seriously wrong like my car being in the shop for 30 days this year, MB Customer service sucks (look at the other posts on this forum). The people who handle complaints treat you like you’ve purchased the lowest Common denominator of the car. Part of The reason you buy these cars and pay the premiums is so that you get the service on the other end.
Exclusivity is gone, MB products are a dime a dozen. They all look the same, unless you’re really close or a car guy who knows the various models.
Perhaps, some of the above problems would be acceptable if quality and reliability was there. It’s not. Quality is way below BMW, Porsche, even Genesis. Look at the latest 3 year JD Power reliability scores. This is my last MB unless things improve dramatically.
Sorry to break a bad news, but we're moving to the 'equality of outcome' . Read the speeches of certain candidates for office.
There was never a differentiation in Mercedes service whether you had a 190 or a 600 grosser Mercedes. In fact I would expect that the SA's do differentiate more now based on their perception of the size of your wallet.
There was never a differentiation in Mercedes service whether you had a 190 or a 600 grosser Mercedes. In fact I would expect that the SA's do differentiate more now based on their perception of the size of your wallet.
We had a 190E 2.6, looking back that little ride was built like a mini bank vault, solid. As far as I can remember, you only had E, S, and SL plus a couple variations of coupes. Mercedes kept it simple, just perfecting their wheel.
2022 S580, Range Rover full sized, retired (Ferraris, lamborghini, Bentley, RR, Porsche etc, etc...)
Originally Posted by MBNUT1
There was never a differentiation in Mercedes service whether you had a 190 or a 600 grosser Mercedes. In fact I would expect that the SA's do differentiate more now based on their perception of the size of your wallet.
Yes it’s just crappy service across the board. BTW hate to break it to you, but we still live in a capitalist society. When I pay up for something the service should be commensurate with the input.
The product is the heart of a business, and the S-Class is primarily a victim of standing at a place called Good-enough, and getting hit by a Max profit, product be damned, bus.
It's how you got attack doors and all the rest of it. Put good enough together in a room with profit at all cost, and you get a sub-par product every time. That's ok if you're selling spatulas to a customer that is putting cost at the highest criteria for a purchase, it's much more problematic when you're selling a high-priced luxury product no one has to have, with functionality that is below industry par for non luxury items of the same type.
But here we are... And yeah, having said all that, I think SW nailed the most pertinent causes: Times are tough, and the market segment has been in decline for years.
Sorry to break a bad news, but we're moving to the 'equality of outcome' . Read the speeches of certain candidates for office.
Here we go again...I guess you'll never tire of spewing out extremist stupidity. Extremism on either side is a waste of time. Your answer for everything is the same, never thoughtful insight or even posit a solution. Get a life!!
Yes it’s just crappy service across the board. BTW hate to break it to you, but we still live in a capitalist society. When I pay up for something the service should be commensurate with the input.
The problem is that all the low end stuff is so much better than before. Yes, the S-Class is vastly above the C-class and other MB vehicles. I had the unfortunate chance to drive a bunch of other Mercedes cars due to a problem with my previous S-class. I drove practically every new ICE vehicle in their fleet, both cars and SUVs. The S-class still stands above the rest. But the gap is smaller than ever before, especially in the E-class segment for car and SUV. So many things at play here; consumer taste are changing and manufacturer focus is moving to EV's. I think the move is a little fast for my taste, mainly because of lack of infrastructure. But in the long run I think moving to EV's is a good thing. Add to that; technology is a major factor in the car buying decision. I can't find that article, but among high-mid to luxury car buyers, technology was a major deciding factor. That has nothing to do with getting behind the wheel and pushing the gas pedal, or reliability.
And you guys are right about the level of customer service. However, the car business is no different than other businesses. In my experience, customer service has gone down the tubes! Even at high end restauraunts, everything from the greeting, to the wait staff, to the interaction with management has been reduced. You can't get competent help pretty much at any store these days. And none of the car sales people know anything about the cars they're selling, new or used. That's across the board. I've heard people lament the quality of MB cars versus other brands. They're all running into problems for different, MB is NOT the exception.
The problem is that all the low end stuff is so much better than before. Yes, the S-Class is vastly above the C-class and other MB vehicles. I had the unfortunate chance to drive a bunch of other Mercedes cars due to a problem with my previous S-class. I drove practically every new ICE vehicle in their fleet, both cars and SUVs. The S-class still stands above the rest. But the gap is smaller than ever before, especially in the E-class segment for car and SUV. So many things at play here; consumer taste are changing and manufacturer focus is moving to EV's. I think the move is a little fast for my taste, mainly because of lack of infrastructure. But in the long run I think moving to EV's is a good thing. Add to that; technology is a major factor in the car buying decision. I can't find that article, but among high-mid to luxury car buyers, technology was a major deciding factor. That has nothing to do with getting behind the wheel and pushing the gas pedal, or reliability.
And you guys are right about the level of customer service. However, the car business is no different than other businesses. In my experience, customer service has gone down the tubes! Even at high end restauraunts, everything from the greeting, to the wait staff, to the interaction with management has been reduced. You can't get competent help pretty much at any store these days. And none of the car sales people know anything about the cars they're selling, new or used. That's across the board. I've heard people lament the quality of MB cars versus other brands. They're all running into problems for different, MB is NOT the exception.
These blanket generalizations bother me - what is it about presumably intelligent and educated persons that leads so many of to fall into this trap? See - that's another generalization!!
We live in a small northeastern Kentucky town, that was created on what was then the western frontier in the middle 1760s and 70s, a little over a hour and a quarter drive down river from Cincinnati. Here at home, there are no upscale shops or restaurants, but there are plenty of folks who work in what we do have who are competent, cordial, and pleasant. Those are the places we frequent. And we're still a small town, the market center for a 30 mile radius. We even have two bridges over the Ohio River!!
When we're in Cincy, we have favorite places to shop and eat - and those have quality staff and management who take care of us and treat us well.
If you can't find such places where you live, I suggest you look around a little and see if you cannot find some places that suit you better.
Am I saying, everything, everyplace we go is perfecet? OF COURSE NOT!! But, we absolutely will not join in the general condemnation of services and facilities where we live.
Maybe some of you all ought to take a look at living elsewhere??
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These blanket generalizations bother me - what is it about presumably intelligent and educated persons that leads so many of to fall into this trap? See - that's another generalization!!
We live in a small northeastern Kentucky town, that was created on what was then the western frontier in the middle 1760s and 70s, a little over a hour and a quarter drive down river from Cincinnati. Here at home, there are no upscale shops or restaurants, but there are plenty of folks who work in what we do have who are competent, cordial, and pleasant. Those are the places we frequent. And we're still a small town, the market center for a 30 mile radius. We even have two bridges over the Ohio River!!
When we're in Cincy, we have favorite places to shop and eat - and those have quality staff and management who take care of us and treat us well.
If you can't find such places where you live, I suggest you look around a little and see if you cannot find some places that suit you better.
Am I saying, everything, everyplace we go is perfecet? OF COURSE NOT!! But, we absolutely will not join in the general condemnation of services and facilities where we live.
Maybe some of you all ought to take a look at living elsewhere??
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I applaud your decision to live in the Midwest, I grew up in Cleveland and miss that vibe sometimes. However, I love where I live. You're 100% right about making broad generalizations. I did that in droves. I should have qualified that by saying something like "what I've observed". We travel frequently, and have experienced the same thing in other areas besides our wonderful city. I also should have mentioned that the process for buying a car has changed for everybody. I remember when you had to have "good credit" to purchase a car. I remeber when you never spent more than 10% of your paycheck on a car. I remember when it was looked at as an achievement when you could buy a car. Without making a value judgement, comparing the "good ole days" versus today, I think it's fair to say things are different. I'd also add that things are different across the board, and MB's problems are a function of a larger trend in customer taste and preferences as much as what they're producing. Nothing is as apecial as it was 30 years ago, and a large part of our population don't think about material possessions, especially as it relates to quality, the same as years ago. I say that as an observer, not a judge.
The other way they’ve diluted the brand is when you take it in for service. You are in the same line as some who paid less than one third of what you paid.
Thats always been the case, much more expensive models are serviced alongside cheaper models. Its just there are a lot of cheaper models that do clog up service lines and degrade the premium feel of the service.
I will say though, dealer service at my dealer is still very good. They take care of me, seem to genuinely care about making me satisfied, people have personality and try and connect with me on a personal level. Service is slow...thats my only issue.
Overall my experience with Mercedes has been very positive.
They all look the same, unless you’re really close or a car guy who knows the various models.
Again, look at the pictures I posted. They have always looked the same.
Here we go again...I guess you'll never tire of spewing out extremist stupidity. Extremism on either side is a waste of time. Your answer for everything is the same, never thoughtful insight or even posit a solution. Get a life!!
so people who say it are not extremists, but the ones who quote them are? More importantly, we try not to engage in personal insults here, So try to be civilized and control your temper, Carlos.
My biggest gripe is the interior. It looks too similar across the entire lineup. I can appreciate why they’re doing that to save money but when it comes to the S Class, it shouldn’t be about saving money, it should be more than that for being the “flagship” of the brand. It should look different. It should have different screens. It should have different instrumentation. It should have higher quality materials throughout.
Stop being lazy and cheap and put the S Class back on pedestal where it belongs. It’s really not that aspirational if it’s just an oversized E class throughout.
My biggest gripe is the interior. It looks too similar across the entire lineup. I can appreciate why they’re doing that to save money but when it comes to the S Class, it shouldn’t be about saving money, it should be more than that for being the “flagship” of the brand. It should look different. It should have different screens. It should have different instrumentation. It should have higher quality materials throughout.
Stop being lazy and cheap and put the S Class back on pedestal where it belongs. It’s really not that aspirational if it’s just an oversized E class throughout.
I don't think they are really that similar, no more similar than they ever were
In all seriousness now, it's all a moot point, very soon, most cars would have AI assistance and that's about it. The only screens would be for entertainment purposes. The driver involvement in actual driving or controlling functionalities would be minimal, so most cars would look the same on the inside. 2026 S class should have MBOS which is a first step towards it as it is completely built by MB.
I cannot disclose a lot, but I am in AI space in Finance, we have developed things you guys would never believe, and most of that should be applicable for cars. (I am not sure what people would be doing for work though, so fewer people would be able to afford S class) Of course the costs of production would be reduced a lot as well. Anyway the point is, cars would be more or less the same in a few years, unless the government puts a lid on it as they'd worry about high unemployment.
You shouldn't have to qualify your remarks with an "in general" at every turn. It's normally easily discerned that someone has made an observation that was intended in a general sense, and not as a universal absolute.
I agree about the dining, in general, it is substantially worse in the US than it used to be. My expectation now is one of poor service, mediocre to bad food, and a wait staff that will expect a new yacht for a tip. And yeah, you can avoid this with local knowledge of the area, but your choices will be fewer than they had been years ago.
I own a few apartments and a house overseas, the one I was at most recently is in Sicily. It is not a tourist area but there are something like 50 restaurants or trattorias within a 15-minute walk of my apartment there. Almost every one of them will offer a better experience than I'll get in the US at most restaurants. Chances are very high the owner will be in the building. There will be a personal concern about my meal, and the service I received. The wait staff does not expect to be gifted a yacht when I leave. I know a lot of those people owning and working in those restaurants by name, and they know mine. When we see each other in the market or elsewhere around the city, there will be a greeting, a friendly nod.
It used to be that way here. When I went to a restaurant as a kid, there was a good chance the owner was in the building at least some of the time. They knew my name. I knew their names. They servers served, but were not considered servants, in the way many people view them now. It was a much better experience. In general. Not always, but in general, dining out is not what it used to be, it has declined.
Going back to the thread, I agree on the difference between the high end and lower end effecting sales. Don't have numbers to back that up, but it feels right, because I used to perceive a much larger difference between the low end and the high than I do now. Let's see if curiosity overcomes laziness, and I look that up...
You shouldn't have to qualify your remarks with an "in general" at every turn. It's normally easily discerned that someone has made an observation that was intended in a general sense, and not as a universal absolute.
I agree about the dining, in general, it is substantially worse in the US than it used to be. My expectation now is one of poor service, mediocre to bad food, and a wait staff that will expect a new yacht for a tip. And yeah, you can avoid this with local knowledge of the area, but your choices will be fewer than they had been years ago.
I own a few apartments and a house overseas, the one I was at most recently is in Sicily. It is not a tourist area but there are something like 50 restaurants or trattorias within a 15-minute walk of my apartment there. Almost every one of them will offer a better experience than I'll get in the US at most restaurants. Chances are very high the owner will be in the building. There will be a personal concern about my meal, and the service I received. The wait staff does not expect to be gifted a yacht when I leave. I know a lot of those people owning and working in those restaurants by name, and they know mine. When we see each other in the market or elsewhere around the city, there will be a greeting, a friendly nod.
It used to be that way here. When I went to a restaurant as a kid, there was a good chance the owner was in the building at least some of the time. They knew my name. I knew their names. They servers served, but were not considered servants, in the way many people view them now. It was a much better experience. In general. Not always, but in general, dining out is not what it used to be, it has declined.
Going back to the thread, I agree on the difference between the high end and lower end effecting sales. Don't have numbers to back that up, but it feels right, because I used to perceive a much larger difference between the low end and the high than I do now. Let's see if curiosity overcomes laziness, and I look that up...
One of the issues in with the decline in the dining experience is the fact that most restaurants employ younger people that really have no idea what service or quality is. Also, there is no one there with the knowledge to train them. So that experience is fleeting. As for Europe, agreed. Usually a whole different experience. Particularly in smaller towns. Not uncommon to find the owners on-site and involved. If you travel to Asia and the Middle East the experience is even better. From the hotel on down. They get it.
Luxury has been redefined to the advantage of the brand makers. Anything with good imagery, tons of followers and hefty price qualifies. If it's a legacy brand, just slap the badging on and sell it.
Dining scene in Europe is different due to economics. The waiters earn much more and have full benefits, on a flip side, it is very hard for young people to find good paying jobs in Europe so they work in restaurants.
Also much more difficult to start a business as getting financing is impossible and fighting government beauracrasy is not much fun.
But again, here in Cambridge next to MIT we have robots serving in restaurant and soon it'd be like that across most establishments. We're about 2-3 years away from software being ready and maybe 5 from hardware.
Agree, I've been around a fair bit, for work and play. Like most people, I grew up being indoctrinated into the systems in my country, and it's culture. Once you get around, you start to figure out that your country isn't always what the propagandist would have you believe. Don't get me wrong, I love my country, but I see it now in a somewhat different way than I did before I had been exposed to other cultures.
Agree, I've been around a fair bit, for work and play. Like most people, I grew up being indoctrinated into the systems in my country, and it's culture. Once you get around, you start to figure out that your country isn't always what the propagandist would have you believe. Don't get me wrong, I love my country, but I see it now in a somewhat different way than I did before I had been exposed to other cultures.
what's your favorite? Where would you like to live?
Today, 08:34 AM
Here are the lastest news, literally from today and yesterday on Mercedes:
