Polo35m

Hey guys I just purchased a set of oem Mbz. camber bolts and I just can't wrap my head around which direction to install these. I'm trying to get the front closer to spec as it is sagging from age. Both sides are 89.1 deg. I realize you only pick up 3 maybe 4 tenths of a degree but anything will help! My question is do you install the bolts to push the control arms outward or inward toward the engine. I read up extensively on this forum and others and I'm intimately familiar how to install them just no one says what direction? I also realize the main control arm directly affects camber whereas the forward control arm effects caster and camber. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

BOTUS

all depends how bad your's was made and if you drive on the wrong side of the road....

in my experience the right side is too upright.... the left is where it was meant to be

longer arms give more negative camber bottom of the wheels out = help the wheels sit on the road better when cornering hard... But its all a compromise - u have to set it closest to your main use

tracking will go wild and will need sorting

Polo35m

Holy cow thank you for the prompt response! Man I am really sorry but I still can't quite wrap my head around it because of the geometry of the setup it's very very different from other cars I've had. So to idiot proof this for me let's say I wanted to get it closer to 90° do I want to have the camber arm move towards the engine or outwards toward the curb?
my goal here is to quit chewing up tires on the Inside Edge I've had this thing aligned a million times it is spot on perfect it's because the front end is sagging

BOTUS

is this a wind up ?

unless you are prepared for further comprises to suit a change in how you wish use or drive the vehicle. Say you want better feel and crisper turn in, you will end up with reduced straight line stability and higher tyre wear - the best set up is to go with the manu std settings (not the junk they peddled leaving the factory), but the car set up how the engineers decided was the best overall compromise

the whole game of playing with suspension geometry is a minefield of tyre wear and compromises. Every adjustment impacts the other two on that wheel and in the weird world now - it does stuff with flexi bushing at the other end of the car too... so one small change might impact the whole cars behaviour - no doubt you'll get it to drive better - but the tyre wear will be alarming....

camber comes in two flavours
old world mostly dangerous positive camber - top of the wheel leans out (so top of both wheels is furthest apart) no modern car does this, its ridiculous and stupid
and these days all cars use some degree of negative camber - top of the wheel leans in (so top of both wheels is closest together on the same axle), When the rest is right, as above, gives better steering feel, better turn in, more grip on bends etc.

but its not win win, its win lose at every change - check drift cars or german cars where they made it so you push the back out and have fun - on a lock lots of negative camber
on some it would be lengthening the lower wishbone and or shortening or moving inwards the point of the top mounting.... on the 221 with it budget suspension (that Germans so love), its the bottom track control arms (note many here fail to call by that correct name) indeed its what they are and do - support the wheel to maintain the track - AKA hold the wheels on the car and maintain the width between the wheels... (as in train tracks keeping them parallel to each other) ...lengthening a track control arm (as they sit below the axle pivot) pushes the wheel out at the bottom increasing negative camber - go more than a gnats over the manu set up and the tyre will go bald in not very long - as soon as you touch this depending on where the rack sits it will mess up the tracking.... on the 221 with the rack behind the axle point will give more toe out - which isn't what you want as you make the increase in negative camber... this is not home mechanic guess work

if you want to die put more toe out on the back wheels - that'll sharpen its turn in - but u will get stability issues - it all about managing safety and massive tyre wear - for road use (particularity on a tank that's not a sports car), you usually ONLY want adjustment to combat terrible build quality and land the manu set up



.

Polo35m

Thank you so much for the reply! I really appreciate it. Yes I am a DIY I've got an old vintage Ferrari, this car and wife has a brand new BMW ...none of them have ever been to a repair shop....EVER. I do all my own work all my own alignments with string, trammel rod, ramps and a electronic level. I've never messed with my wife's car but her camber on front and rear is about 89.6deg. Her tires were evenly. My car because of age and just general component sagging is about 88.8.in the front and eating up inside edge only. Toe is factory spec. I'm just trying to get it back into the low 89s. I'm going to play with it some more this weekend but I might just wind up ordering new lower and forward control arms. Will report back asap.

BOTUS

fixed post 4 - muddled up toe - it will toe out if the rack is behind the axle

every single model of every car brand gets a unique set up... you don't adjust to what you think is correct - you do it how merc decided was right for that specific car spec - so one suspension type, (ABC vs air tragic, 4x4 or normal, v8 petrol vs 3ltr tractor, LWB vs small back doors, wheel diameter etc.) as each change may all get slightly different settings.......

theses days its getting ever more critical - and you don't look it up on a chart printed 5 years ago anymore.- you fit laser sensors on all four wheels (nothing on the stupid tyres anymore that's way to inaccurate), you then rotate the wheels so the gauges self calibrate, then you input the chassis number to pull the starting point for the manu stats and then add the current ride height for today's mess up of stiction, seized sensors, atmospheric conditions and wheel size on the car - and input that in the alignment computer that cross refs that vehicle in that state to get the geometry settings.....

Shadly1

I'm probably going to mirror BOTUS here but you CANNOT do your own alignment. It requires tools and expertise that not a lot of us have. It's about the only reason I need to take my car to an Indy. You can't do it with the same tools you align classic cars with. The procedure involves hooking up to a STAR computer for height measurements and strut air pressures and setting ride height electronically with weight added to the drivers seat to account for you. Then you can check numbers. You can't have sag unless your airmatic system is broken. If your numbers are in spec but you're still getting alignment wear, you have blown bushings. I would take this car to an Indy with the proper equipment and hand him your offset alignment cams to use if he needs to.

Polo35m

Thank you for all the replies and advice and I completely agree. I'm just trying to get it close to spec and then I'll take it in for a proper computer alignment at an Indy. I'm not messing with ride height at all. I replaced the air struts on all four corners last year they are perfect and not leaking. When I use the term saggy, I'm referring to how cars over 10 years old began to "Sag" and you see the wheels lean inward IE negative camber less than 89deg. This is caused by the bushings over time deforming from weight, wear and heat. Certainly a proper fix would be to replace all the control arms as the bushings are not serviceable but I was able to pick up .5 deg. bringing the front right to 89.4 deg. Time will tell if it stops eating up the inside edge of that particular tire.
Thanks again to all!

BOTUS

if I remember correctly last time - the settings were different between 18" wheels vs 17" wheels...

another factor worth getting your head around - roads in different countries are not made the same - based on road safety ideas (to force cars to separate not converge) and for the localised rainfall, type, quantity, and drainage systems used, the amount of camber varies - so we should get localised set up - but they don't bother anymore.

castor stagger is back to front for cars that drive on the correct side of the road for a start

Polo35m

You are correct sir! Depending on if you live in mother England or the US of course we drive on the right hand side most us roads are significantly crowned which means your car kind of automatically pulls to the right even off the showroom floor. Having said that I found the answer to my question it was staring me in the face the whole time. I just wasn't sure of the geometry of these camber arms and I wasn't sure if I needed to use the bolts to move the camber arm closer to the engine or outward toward the road. Keep in mind I'm trying to fix negative camber in other words I'm trying to get the camber closer to 89-90deg. Just by examining the rubber bushings on the control arm I could see that they had deformed significantly toward the engine meaning they needed to go out toward the road. If that makes sense.. I picked up about four or five tenths of a degree which is pretty significant just from the bolts but I'm going to go ahead and replace both camber arms just on principle once I replace the arms I will probably undoubtedly use the OEM bolts but I'll just have to see how the geometry works out.. probably tackle it in a few weeks but I will report back just to keep the thread alive.

BOTUS

not sure what u found.... but the std bolts won't come out as the steering rack's steering arms (the bits the track rods fit to) are in the way....
its good to have some adjustment just to get thing able to be put to std set points...


UK drives on the left and the correct side of the road, along with about 1/3 of the rest of the world following sound principles, where most humans are right handed, and it best suits control of horse drawn carriages, sword fighting and jousting

2/3rd of the world on the back of the stupidity of an angry french guy who needed to do something different, thus forced many to drive on the right and the wrong side of the road all at the same time

Shadly1

Yes, tell us more about the superiority of UK traffic rules...

BOTUS

all good examples why steering feel and cornering matter

Shadly1

LOL.

Our hiways begin in California and pass right through to New Mexico without turning.

BOTUS

some of ours are a bit older - this one was put up by the Romans nearly 2000 years ago to help keep Donald out, My GM omega didn't like this bit (one reason you'd need 1st on a 221)

the sort of bends where traction control and anti-roll bars stop cars from actually being driven... engineers who say you don't need a LSD are morons





https://www.bbc.com/travel/article/2...s-wildest-road

Polo35m

Maybe there is a difference between Euro and US spec W221s but these bolts slide right out by gently pushing the steering rack boot out of the way. Absolutely love those pics! I have a friend who is an executive for a tire company we were talking....ideally if you had a car that had 90 degrees of camber on all four corners your tires would wear evenly and you could easily get three to four years out of them but camber is a necessary evil for handling. I remember in high school my first car was an MG midget with a rigid rear end ... the back tires would last years whereas the fronts would maybe last a year at the most because of excessive negative camber.

Shadly1

I have an old Jeep Wrangler with a 90° camber. It corners beautifully as long as your under 5mph. Any faster than that and it corners like a U-Haul.

BOTUS

this is real !!! due to snow and ice the alpine bits of europe hate hills so do lots of tight corners - OK if driving - pretty horrific is the passenger - half way along (in good weather) you think if you just put a bit of a slope on the flipping thing (instead of keeping them most parallel to each other) we'd have been there already....

stelvio pass (in italy) not done this yet... tried the one at the start on the italian job, had to turn back that year as still had 20 foot of snow on the 7 july

Bayern Munich

So how do you adjust front wheels negative -1.4 degrees camber to neutral on W221 ?

BOTUS

the car is built with a subframe that accepts the lower track control arms to be fitted in one of three positions.... they come thrown together with it often set wrong, always using the middle location - you do not need the bolts - if trying to resolve a one off bad build condition - only the special washers (x 2) then remove the lug on the subframe allowing it to sit in which ever (longer or shorter effective) arm position you need

Bayern Munich

I believe this information is incorrect.

BOTUS

believe what you want - its how the good main dealers sort it...

if you want to buy and fit the pathetic bolts (that are one far weaker and two only designed to indicate to a moron that adjustment is available) go for it

K-Mac

All comes back to the basic reality (New car industry’s best kept secret) - an exotic make but OEM there is no longer front Camber or Caster and no rear Camber adjustment !

Essential - allowing to adjust tire contact angles, spread load more evenly to prevent costly, premature tire replacement.

IT IS ALL TO DO WITH COST CUTTING AND EVER INCREASING SPEED OF NEW CAR ASSEMBLY LINES. STOPPING TO ADJUST CAMBER AND CASTER IS NO LONGER AN OPTION !

OWNERS STILL BEING RE ASSURINGLY TOLD - “WILL CARRY OUT A FULL FRONT & REAR ‘4’ WHEEL ALIGNMENT”.

BUT INSTEAD IT IS ONLY BASIC TOE - DIRECTIONAL ADJUSTMENT.

Owners pointing out still - the excess passenger side edge wear through high cambered roads or excess edge wear both sides !

Dealers lamely can only advise (to try and placate) is within factory spec (at showroom height).

To the frustration of owners then going from one dealer or align shop to the next - or deciding must be a tire brand issue.

SEE SPOILER






AUDI to VOLVO - K-MAC Experience Resolving OEM Suspension Shortcomings (and Costs) Since 1964 !