SL/R230: SL350 with ABC and Chardonnay.....
02-02-2003, 10:05 AM
#1
Super Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 536
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BMW 535d Touring
SL350 with ABC and Chardonnay.....
TOP GEAR magazine article - a very positive review of the SL350 without ABC says......
".....only get the ABC unless you are into posturing over your Chardonnay"
Hate Chardonnay, ergo....
".....only get the ABC unless you are into posturing over your Chardonnay"
Hate Chardonnay, ergo....
Last edited by Mustard; 02-03-2003 at 06:30 AM.
02-03-2003, 02:42 PM
#3
Super Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 536
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BMW 535d Touring
Unoaked Chardonnay can be OK but prefer Sauvignon Blancs.... but this article is exactly what I would have written earlier speculating about the difference between cars with and sans ABC.
Author is Ben Whitworth, part of the invited bunch that went to Mexico for their evaluation c/f and an SL500. Other reviews in EVO & Auto Express.
SL350 less torquey, ergo less punch than a SL500 but as fast generally...still a good and quick performance car.
But the article's inference is that ABC makes little difference ".....it took numerous changes between the standard SL350 and one fitted with the optional ABC...to throw up any major differences between the two."
"... Both systems (ABC & not) sponge away intrusions with real finesses at all speeds and unwanted body movements are all kept in check"
"...in most driiving conditions you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference" (betweend ABC and not).
"...the SL350 can be driven with real precision and scruff of the neck zest. It feels agile in a way something nudging 1800 kgs has no right to be - you bullet it down the road with utter confidence, rather than steer timidly around its size and weight" (no ABC, ref. SL500)
I'm more than ever convinced this is a better car than the SL500 for many reasons... the author also concludes " In a first for Mercedes - less is more" !
I'm sure you'll be back at me - but frankly although pleased to have an SL350, I'm still wary about the benefits of ABC.
One month to go and I'll know...
Author is Ben Whitworth, part of the invited bunch that went to Mexico for their evaluation c/f and an SL500. Other reviews in EVO & Auto Express.
SL350 less torquey, ergo less punch than a SL500 but as fast generally...still a good and quick performance car.
But the article's inference is that ABC makes little difference ".....it took numerous changes between the standard SL350 and one fitted with the optional ABC...to throw up any major differences between the two."
"... Both systems (ABC & not) sponge away intrusions with real finesses at all speeds and unwanted body movements are all kept in check"
"...in most driiving conditions you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference" (betweend ABC and not).
"...the SL350 can be driven with real precision and scruff of the neck zest. It feels agile in a way something nudging 1800 kgs has no right to be - you bullet it down the road with utter confidence, rather than steer timidly around its size and weight" (no ABC, ref. SL500)
I'm more than ever convinced this is a better car than the SL500 for many reasons... the author also concludes " In a first for Mercedes - less is more" !
I'm sure you'll be back at me - but frankly although pleased to have an SL350, I'm still wary about the benefits of ABC.
One month to go and I'll know...
Last edited by Mustard; 02-03-2003 at 02:45 PM.
02-03-2003, 05:21 PM
#5
Originally posted by blueSL
Sounds to me like they were suffering from sun-stroke or one too many tequila slammers.
Sounds to me like they were suffering from sun-stroke or one too many tequila slammers.
02-05-2003, 02:34 PM
#6
Super Member
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Wichita
Posts: 911
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
2005 SL600, 2011 Honda Odyssey Touring Elite
Must say that I too have grown weary of chardonnay, especially those from California where there is little distinction between those costing $15 and those costing $50. Sauvignon blanc provides a nice diversion from the likes of chardonnay but still leaves me unsatisfied. I had the occasion to drink both the 2002 Cloudy Bay and the Kim Crawford sauvignon blancs this past weekend. While both were quite enjoyable and refreshing, neither of them (nor any sauvignon blanc for that matter) was a good accompaniment for dinner. (Mustard, the Kim Crawford was the first screw cap bottle of wine I have purchased in recent memory...not that there is anything wrong with that!) Is this considered posturing over suvignon blanc? Nothing beats a good cabernet with a fine steak or a hearty Brunello along with pasta topped with a tomato sauce in my opinion.
BlueSL-- you have driven Mercs w/ and w/o ABC. Noticeable improvement or not? Have you ever turned off your ESP?
BlueSL-- you have driven Mercs w/ and w/o ABC. Noticeable improvement or not? Have you ever turned off your ESP?
02-05-2003, 04:56 PM
#7
Super Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 536
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BMW 535d Touring
Glad you enjoyed the two whites, but neither would be my choice with steak- I was drinking an NZ Red merlot blend with NZ lamb as you replied, and Chile has my favourite red at present....
My experience of Kim Crawford was with my kids fishing for trout in NZ, catching 6 x 8lb rainbows, and had them cooked free at a local restaurant that night with several bottles of Sauvignon Blanc. One great lifetime experience...
Screw caps increasingly popular in NZ/OZ - 1 in 20 wines are corked and there was a major issue with wine producers getting adulterated corks that threatened their fragile reputation.
Neither wine is for pasta either, too flavoured/perfumed.
Good Question to BlueSL, except nobody but a few journalists have driven non-ABC cars. I'm sure he's right - its a better car with it. But how much better is possibly debatable.....
My experience of Kim Crawford was with my kids fishing for trout in NZ, catching 6 x 8lb rainbows, and had them cooked free at a local restaurant that night with several bottles of Sauvignon Blanc. One great lifetime experience...
Screw caps increasingly popular in NZ/OZ - 1 in 20 wines are corked and there was a major issue with wine producers getting adulterated corks that threatened their fragile reputation.
Neither wine is for pasta either, too flavoured/perfumed.
Good Question to BlueSL, except nobody but a few journalists have driven non-ABC cars. I'm sure he's right - its a better car with it. But how much better is possibly debatable.....
Last edited by Mustard; 02-05-2003 at 05:03 PM.
Trending Topics
02-05-2003, 06:17 PM
#8
MBWorld Fanatic!
Mustard's correct, I have not driven an R230 car without ABC but what I can say is that the difference ABC brings to a car weighing 1950kg is remarkable.
I'm comparing my two Mercedes, similar weight, the SL55 with ABC and the older SL600 with conventional adaptive damping set to "firm". The SL55 leads by a significant margin in terms of power and torque, but the SL600 is no slouch and will out accelerate most things on the road with consumate ease. Where the SL55 really stands out over the SL600 is in its handling - anti-dive, anti-squat, anti-roll, it has a neutrality of cornering which is remarkable and reminds me of my F355 with a more compliant ride with just a little bit of muted handling sensitivity. The rack and pinion steering of course is much better than the recirculating ball steering on the older car.
Now, I'm sure the SL350 without ABC will be a big improvement on the old SL600 but nevertheless, the performance of ABC is for me the stand-out feature of the new car. It's the feature which re-writes the rule book. By comparison, I'm coming to think/agree with others that SBC feels less-well developed, a little over-zealous, a bit like having heavily servoed brakes and it requires practice to feather-off the brakes as you come to a standstill to stop the car smoothly. Still, it's the future and future facelifted cars may well fine tune it.
I have tried turning off the ESP and floored the throttle in 2nd gear. Lots of smoke, slightly scary and I could see the tyre man rubbing his hands in glee. Since I'm not as good a driver and I would like to think I am, I leave it on...
Enjoyed your comments about the wine; I love screw-top bottles, they make for most consistent quality even if some of the theatre of drinking is removed. The Cloudy Bay is very dry and has considerable depths of flavour which I find I enjoy best drinking it as an aperitif or lazing in the garden in summer or perhaps with some delicately flavoured food. For something robust like steak or pasta, I'd go for a red anytime, something like a Cotes Rotie or Spanish Rioja. Wine though is every bit as a much a case of personal preferences as SL colour schemes! We had an Australian to dinner last year who thought CB was disgusting, so I had great pleasure in giving her Muscadet which someone else had brought and which is truly is the pits. That shut her up.
A recent find for me is a Californian vermouth called Vya which is just glorious on the rocks as an aperitif.
I'm comparing my two Mercedes, similar weight, the SL55 with ABC and the older SL600 with conventional adaptive damping set to "firm". The SL55 leads by a significant margin in terms of power and torque, but the SL600 is no slouch and will out accelerate most things on the road with consumate ease. Where the SL55 really stands out over the SL600 is in its handling - anti-dive, anti-squat, anti-roll, it has a neutrality of cornering which is remarkable and reminds me of my F355 with a more compliant ride with just a little bit of muted handling sensitivity. The rack and pinion steering of course is much better than the recirculating ball steering on the older car.
Now, I'm sure the SL350 without ABC will be a big improvement on the old SL600 but nevertheless, the performance of ABC is for me the stand-out feature of the new car. It's the feature which re-writes the rule book. By comparison, I'm coming to think/agree with others that SBC feels less-well developed, a little over-zealous, a bit like having heavily servoed brakes and it requires practice to feather-off the brakes as you come to a standstill to stop the car smoothly. Still, it's the future and future facelifted cars may well fine tune it.
I have tried turning off the ESP and floored the throttle in 2nd gear. Lots of smoke, slightly scary and I could see the tyre man rubbing his hands in glee. Since I'm not as good a driver and I would like to think I am, I leave it on...
Enjoyed your comments about the wine; I love screw-top bottles, they make for most consistent quality even if some of the theatre of drinking is removed. The Cloudy Bay is very dry and has considerable depths of flavour which I find I enjoy best drinking it as an aperitif or lazing in the garden in summer or perhaps with some delicately flavoured food. For something robust like steak or pasta, I'd go for a red anytime, something like a Cotes Rotie or Spanish Rioja. Wine though is every bit as a much a case of personal preferences as SL colour schemes! We had an Australian to dinner last year who thought CB was disgusting, so I had great pleasure in giving her Muscadet which someone else had brought and which is truly is the pits. That shut her up.
A recent find for me is a Californian vermouth called Vya which is just glorious on the rocks as an aperitif.
Last edited by blueSL; 02-05-2003 at 06:19 PM.
02-05-2003, 07:06 PM
#9
Super Moderator
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Land of 10,000 lakes
Posts: 10,056
Received 3,241 Likes
on
2,018 Posts
AMG GTC Roadster, E63s Ed.1, M8 Comp. Coupe
Originally posted by blueSL
the performance of ABC is for me the stand-out feature of the new car. It's the feature which re-writes the rule book. By comparison, I'm coming to think/agree with others that SBC feels less-well developed, a little over-zealous, a bit like having heavily servoed brakes and it requires practice to feather-off the brakes as you come to a standstill to stop the car smoothly.
the performance of ABC is for me the stand-out feature of the new car. It's the feature which re-writes the rule book. By comparison, I'm coming to think/agree with others that SBC feels less-well developed, a little over-zealous, a bit like having heavily servoed brakes and it requires practice to feather-off the brakes as you come to a standstill to stop the car smoothly.
Once again you provide a nicely balanced comparison on the different cars
I agree completely on the ABC but would like to add that the SL55 ABC calibration is quite a bit different than the SL500; the car is a bit lower and feels quite a bit tighter and stifffer, especially in the sport setting.
I heard that the SBC is software/firmware upgradable which could easily aleviate the early issues with the brake pedal feeback.
Does anyone know more about this?
Wolfman
02-05-2003, 07:10 PM
#10
Super Member
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Wichita
Posts: 911
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
2005 SL600, 2011 Honda Odyssey Touring Elite
I would never think of having a white wine with steak or a red wine with fish--- I guess I am old-fashioned that way. Ruins the dining experience, in my opinion. My Cloudy Bay/ Kim Crawford experience was with Chinese food--in celebration of Chinese New Year. Probably wasn't a good test, as I have yet to find a wine to pair with Chinese food.
Your trout fishing experience in New Zealand with the family is one I'm sure you will never forget and I suspect you will be a fan of Kim Crawford for life because of it. What is the name of that Chilean red by the way...?
BlueSL-- I was referring to your experience with your '96 SL600 and your new SL55. I guess I don't understand the distinction between "conventional active damping" and ABC. I thought ABC was a relatively new feature which was not present in '96. Did your '96 have an earlier version?
Also wanted to come back to you on your theory of rapid depreciation in value of the new 600 line, but that is for another time and another thread...
Your trout fishing experience in New Zealand with the family is one I'm sure you will never forget and I suspect you will be a fan of Kim Crawford for life because of it. What is the name of that Chilean red by the way...?
BlueSL-- I was referring to your experience with your '96 SL600 and your new SL55. I guess I don't understand the distinction between "conventional active damping" and ABC. I thought ABC was a relatively new feature which was not present in '96. Did your '96 have an earlier version?
Also wanted to come back to you on your theory of rapid depreciation in value of the new 600 line, but that is for another time and another thread...
02-05-2003, 10:38 PM
#11
Originally posted by Wolfman
blueSL,
Once again you provide a nicely balanced comparison on the different cars
I agree completely on the ABC but would like to add that the SL55 ABC calibration is quite a bit different than the SL500; the car is a bit lower and feels quite a bit tighter and stifffer, especially in the sport setting.
I heard that the SBC is software/firmware upgradable which could easily aleviate the early issues with the brake pedal feeback.
Does anyone know more about this?
Wolfman
blueSL,
Once again you provide a nicely balanced comparison on the different cars
I agree completely on the ABC but would like to add that the SL55 ABC calibration is quite a bit different than the SL500; the car is a bit lower and feels quite a bit tighter and stifffer, especially in the sport setting.
I heard that the SBC is software/firmware upgradable which could easily aleviate the early issues with the brake pedal feeback.
Does anyone know more about this?
Wolfman
Also if it is firmware updatable, are there other parts of the car like this? If its as easy as an Xbox mod then even i can do it!
If its a simple EPROM replacement and such then i don't think it'd be that difficult!
02-06-2003, 05:20 AM
#12
MBWorld Fanatic!
Jack,
The SL600 has an early form of ABC called ADS, Adatpive Damping system. Think back to your high school physics and you'll remember that a car's suspension (ignoring all important geometry changes which take care of changes in camber and introduce steering characteristics) is a spring-mass-damper system consisting essentially of a spring, a damper (shock) and the mass of the car.
Coil springs present a resisting force proportional to the displacement of the wheel under load, although with profiling of the spring, this can be made non-linear. A shock presents a resisting force proportional to the rate of change of displacement. You can easily compress a shock slowly by hand, try to do that quickly and the shock stiffens up. Take the two components together with the mass of the car and what you have is a system which is designed to respond to road undulations by keeping the tyres firmly on the road while minimising the transmission of energy into the car.
The great problem is that if you fix the characteristics of the spring, mass and damper, you set the characteristics of a system which is designed to work in a wide variety of situations, so the choice must always be a finely chosen compromise. In particular, there is a resonant frequency at which the excitation of the road wheel will maximise the transmission into the body; when you have worn out shocks, the car has a tendency to bounce around. The whole setup is also affected by the changing weight of the car and things like wheels and tyres - they introduce a separate spring-mass-damper system all of their own.
ADS in the SL600 (also available in the R129 SL500 but rarely chosen because of its cost) changes the characteristics of the dampers according to inputs received from acceleration sensors placed around the car. The control unit controls a series of hydraulic valves which change the damper characteristics with the goal of smoothing the cruising ride and stiffening it up around corners to minimise roll.
The control valve has 4 solenoid valves which operate independently and if the unit fails, it reverts to default safe operating mode which made the car ride like a farm cart.
A side effect of the ADS is that you can use the hydraulics to pump fluid into the shocks to raise the car, about 2 - 3 inches. The car looks really odd like this but it's good for negotiating thinks like ramps onto ferries or car-trains. The amount of hydraulic reserve available to do this is quite low, and the raising process takes maybe 30 seconds to complete.
ABC takes this a whole stage further by making the springs adjustable as well as the dampers. There are conventional "helper" springs which support the bulk of the cars mass, but the "shocks" can now be adjusted for spring as well as damping rate, so providing greater on-the-fly adjustability.
A smarter control unit and much greater reserves of hydraulic power mean the system can be made much more responsive to accurately compensate for the body displacement, providing a near-neutral cornering stance.
The car can still be raised but now takes just a couple of seconds and at a Technical Briefing I went to, they connected a PC to the ABC control unit to fool the car it was on a very rough road. With the engine running to give hydraulic power, the car with its 4 wheels on the ground was bucking around like a fairground rodeo ride.
Wolfman, I'm going to this year's technical breifing in a few weeks and I'm going to aks the question if any firmware updates to SBC have been introduced.
The SL600 has an early form of ABC called ADS, Adatpive Damping system. Think back to your high school physics and you'll remember that a car's suspension (ignoring all important geometry changes which take care of changes in camber and introduce steering characteristics) is a spring-mass-damper system consisting essentially of a spring, a damper (shock) and the mass of the car.
Coil springs present a resisting force proportional to the displacement of the wheel under load, although with profiling of the spring, this can be made non-linear. A shock presents a resisting force proportional to the rate of change of displacement. You can easily compress a shock slowly by hand, try to do that quickly and the shock stiffens up. Take the two components together with the mass of the car and what you have is a system which is designed to respond to road undulations by keeping the tyres firmly on the road while minimising the transmission of energy into the car.
The great problem is that if you fix the characteristics of the spring, mass and damper, you set the characteristics of a system which is designed to work in a wide variety of situations, so the choice must always be a finely chosen compromise. In particular, there is a resonant frequency at which the excitation of the road wheel will maximise the transmission into the body; when you have worn out shocks, the car has a tendency to bounce around. The whole setup is also affected by the changing weight of the car and things like wheels and tyres - they introduce a separate spring-mass-damper system all of their own.
ADS in the SL600 (also available in the R129 SL500 but rarely chosen because of its cost) changes the characteristics of the dampers according to inputs received from acceleration sensors placed around the car. The control unit controls a series of hydraulic valves which change the damper characteristics with the goal of smoothing the cruising ride and stiffening it up around corners to minimise roll.
The control valve has 4 solenoid valves which operate independently and if the unit fails, it reverts to default safe operating mode which made the car ride like a farm cart.
A side effect of the ADS is that you can use the hydraulics to pump fluid into the shocks to raise the car, about 2 - 3 inches. The car looks really odd like this but it's good for negotiating thinks like ramps onto ferries or car-trains. The amount of hydraulic reserve available to do this is quite low, and the raising process takes maybe 30 seconds to complete.
ABC takes this a whole stage further by making the springs adjustable as well as the dampers. There are conventional "helper" springs which support the bulk of the cars mass, but the "shocks" can now be adjusted for spring as well as damping rate, so providing greater on-the-fly adjustability.
A smarter control unit and much greater reserves of hydraulic power mean the system can be made much more responsive to accurately compensate for the body displacement, providing a near-neutral cornering stance.
The car can still be raised but now takes just a couple of seconds and at a Technical Briefing I went to, they connected a PC to the ABC control unit to fool the car it was on a very rough road. With the engine running to give hydraulic power, the car with its 4 wheels on the ground was bucking around like a fairground rodeo ride.
Wolfman, I'm going to this year's technical breifing in a few weeks and I'm going to aks the question if any firmware updates to SBC have been introduced.
02-06-2003, 06:07 AM
#13
Super Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 536
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BMW 535d Touring
Originally posted by blueSL
The control unit controls a series of hydraulic valves which change the damper characteristics with the goal of smoothing the cruising ride and stiffening it up around corners to minimise roll.
The control unit controls a series of hydraulic valves which change the damper characteristics with the goal of smoothing the cruising ride and stiffening it up around corners to minimise roll.
My BMW rides very well and I hope ABC will enhance that experience, albeit in a very different vehicle. I like a compliant ride, but not too floaty, and I hope ABC takes away the thump and roar but not the "feel". I don't think American cars are at all bad riding, and have enjoyed that cushioned, boulevard feeling in many cars there - but then sometimes on reaching corners other forces seem to take over. I guess if you can have both a soft ride and good cornering in a car its a win.
On wine - like you Jack, it seems proper to me to have red with meat, white with fish - even though we're now considered old-fashioned.
BlueSL - must berate you for wasting good Kiwi wines on an Aussie. You should have given him/her drinking yoghurt, that way he could have had at least a little culture.
I too enjoy NZ whites as an aperitif or with light seafood. Screw tops make a lot of difference - lunched last Sunday at Rick Steins (a well known seafood restaurant in S-W England) and the wine was corked!! Didn't complain, it was a French white, but annoying non-the-less. Have no qualms about screw tops or the new non-cork corks.
Last edited by Mustard; 02-06-2003 at 11:40 AM.
02-06-2003, 06:11 PM
#14
Originally posted by blueSL
The car can still be raised but now takes just a couple of seconds and at a Technical Briefing I went to, they connected a PC to the ABC control unit to fool the car it was on a very rough road. With the engine running to give hydraulic power, the car with its 4 wheels on the ground was bucking around like a fairground rodeo ride.
Wolfman, I'm going to this year's technical breifing in a few weeks and I'm going to aks the question if any firmware updates to SBC have been introduced.
The car can still be raised but now takes just a couple of seconds and at a Technical Briefing I went to, they connected a PC to the ABC control unit to fool the car it was on a very rough road. With the engine running to give hydraulic power, the car with its 4 wheels on the ground was bucking around like a fairground rodeo ride.
Wolfman, I'm going to this year's technical breifing in a few weeks and I'm going to aks the question if any firmware updates to SBC have been introduced.
man.. i can't believe you didn't take a vid of the bucking SL!!!
02-07-2003, 11:10 AM
#16
MBWorld Fanatic!
Mookie, thanks for the compliment!
I read Engineering at Cambridge University and exposure to people much smarter than me, including several Nobel prize winners, inspired a life-long interest in learning. I'm in the process of retiring from a business/commercial career so that I can devote more time to playing. So many projects, so little time (at the moment!)
BTW, are you getting your car on Monday or tomorrow... I think I'll be able hear the "whoop" of delight all the way across the pond... you patience finally rewarded. Enjoy it!
I'll be interested to know what aspect of your car surprises you, after all the months of looking at the stuff on this forum - what will it be that causes you to think "Ah! I didn't expect that!!"
I read Engineering at Cambridge University and exposure to people much smarter than me, including several Nobel prize winners, inspired a life-long interest in learning. I'm in the process of retiring from a business/commercial career so that I can devote more time to playing. So many projects, so little time (at the moment!)
BTW, are you getting your car on Monday or tomorrow... I think I'll be able hear the "whoop" of delight all the way across the pond... you patience finally rewarded. Enjoy it!
I'll be interested to know what aspect of your car surprises you, after all the months of looking at the stuff on this forum - what will it be that causes you to think "Ah! I didn't expect that!!"
Last edited by blueSL; 02-07-2003 at 11:25 AM.
