LGAFF

After about 20 minutes of driving I get the ABC Visit Workshop error. When the car is cold ABC moves up and down fine, as it heats up the car does not go up and down as quickly or not at all. Going to take it in for a code reading.....I am guessing the pump is shot and as the fluid warms is becomes thinner and pressure drops?


I have also rebuilt the rear valve body and it still drops; used the Square Oring kit also.


Thoughts?


54K on the car

knowbenz

Could be a pump problem. Does it come on randomly or over bump/dip?
Shouldnt drop though with a good cleaning and new seals unless either still debris in lines or a seal is torn. I would start with checking the pressures cold and hot then run rodeo and see if pressure drops below spec indicating pressure accumulator fault

LGAFF

It happens just as it states, comes on after driving for awhile, even on a smooth road. It stays up when you drive...just drops after being parked. it will even stay up for a week if you raise it up cold.

knowbenz

did both problems start at the same time?

knowbenz

Also was resealing the valve block an attempt to fix both problems or was the car dropping all the time in the past and thats when you resealed it then both concerns happened afterwards? Just trying to figure out if you have two separate issues or one issue causing both concerns

LGAFF

Unfortunately its been never ending with this car....

1)The back dropping started a week after we bought it
Rebuilt back block
2)The front hose going to the back of the DS wheel well failed spraying fluid everywhere
3)ABC light started after the hose failure
4)(new)Front hose to PS shock has a lead
5)Fluid dripping off of PS shock(This side does not drop)

Unrelated
1)Left and Right Coil failures
2)Cracked wheel
3)radiator failed
4)Trunk latch failed
5)Code P0300

I work on cars (as a hobby)so its been less painful to me that others....its still a chunk if change

knowbenz

I'd personally hook up an SDS cold and hot to monitor pressures

LGAFF

Going to replace the pump, right shock and left side front pressure line will be rebuilt.

Hary Gahtoe

Stop and think this all thru. Hydraulic systems age and fluids and pressure can be lost by something, say dirty fluids, old hoses and even bad height sensors.
1st of all you need it MB Star diagnosed COLD & HOT.
Hydraulic fluids change viscosity very little at all
You got cold pressure. Hot, leak can mean fitting leaks, air in the system or Accumulator failure. Is it still leaking?
The STAR system has a PRESSURE LEAKDOWN test. You need to do this cold and hot.
What you're describing are not "usual failure" pump symptoms.

So, while replacing parts did you change the ABC filter when you did a flush? What color was the fluids before and after? Notice any smells?
Did you check the system after replacing parts with a Star and did you hook it up to a Star and run a Rodeo? After all the new parts x2 might even be a good idea.
If not go back to basics. Star it, read and erase codes.
For all you know it may (ECU) have recorded +/- suspension values that are simply beyond limit. That's why with R230's you NEED to pay attention to the MB Star tool FIRST!!! BUT; It still won't read HYDRAULIC issues though, only electronic switches and sensors! NOT the actual point of hydraulic pressure leak or failure point.
Biggest problem with R230 cars and why MB service and private Indy's throw piles of parts at these damn things is because they don't know fully how to diagnose hydraulics system failure.
There's a schematic for the R230 hydraulic system showing high side/low side and direction of flow if you do a forum check or even a google search.
I'd look for it for you but I'm out of town with friends and we're in downtown Seattlle to watch the Mariners tonite and the unveiling of Ken Griffey Jr. statue!!!!

Good Luck

knowbenz

Not everyone just throws parts at cars.

LGAFF

Fluids are fresh, filter is fresh as I had a complete hose failure last year; and I replaced all of the fluids at that time. I definitely have a leak at the hose fitting for the the DS strut(fitting the is towards the PS), it is leaking at the fitting, The PS struts has a leak also dripping off the bottom of the strut.

The pump I am not sure of, I read the diagnostic write up people reference on the forum and it mentions ABC pumps will often work cold and get worse. I wish there was a coil over conversion that works for the V12



http://mercedes-abc-drive-carefully.blogspot.com/
If the pump is weak, you should also get ABC "Drive Carefully" and "Visit Workshop" messages, but they will be intermittent in nature. In many cases you can restart the car and the system will pressurize successfully, and the error message will clear. The car works normally again for a while. There will also be pressure related error codes logged as well.

Some owners report the ABC system operates fine when the car is cold, but the error messages start appearing after the car has warmed up. The reverse also seems to be reported. Temperature does seem to be a factor.

Hary Gahtoe

There is a legit coilover set not the SL350 slop "conversion" kit. Sway bars from factory MB do fit but you will need to bypass the ABC warning error

knowbenz

If we were talking about a light bulb or something cheap I would say go for it. But a system such as ABC that has several expensive components is something that I would highly recommend having properly diagnosed instead of just putting parts on it. I remember one time a friend was having problem with a customers CL and I told him bring it over for a drag. He kept asking questions and making assumptions, after he replaced a valve block, pump, accumulators, flush, with no success in fixing the actual problem he decided to bring it to the shop. After running a few tests it turned out the module was bad, voltage output to the rear control valves was too low. He spent $200 on a used ebay module and it was good to go.

I hope everything on your car gets handled but again, get a proper diagnosis by a qualified tech.

LGAFF

I had a Benz Tech as a neighbor but he moved....I think its because he saw me drive up in the SL....lol, one of my good friends was Mercedes/Sprinters regional service Director. Oddly he doesn't own a Benz after working for them for 30+ years, has a Corvette

Hary Gahtoe

You should read the multiple posts about guys having had MB dealers literally replacing complete low / high side pressure systems.

Hydraulics are taught to MB techs but seldom done enough to retain a good problem solving nature. A heavy duty mechanic who has worked on tractor trailers would likely be better suited to solve R230 ABC issues given the electronic savvy necessary. It takes both types of problem skill solving to accurately diagnose and service an R230 which very few can accomplish in a timely fashion Without tossing most of a complete part list at it instead of hoses; flush, check. Not good. Valve block, strut, flush, check. No. ETC, etc..It would take 4days and a big labor bill. IF the Star has a no, that is a slam dunk and dealt with in minutes and <$100 + parts.


That's the reason why techs throw all new parts at the cars, as well as legal liabilities if they don't replace most parts in total or it fails a month later and the owner wants the dealer/Indy to foot the replacement cost because they should've done it prior. If a dealer/Indy has a customer return to re & re the same system then it becomes a PR nightmare and can be held liable as well bad for their business in lower customer return and bad online reviews

FWIW; MB dealer is <$800 for an ABC ECU. I bought one <$80 delivered from a reputable German dismantler
Since you brought it up, maybe worth mentioning where the ABC module is and how long it takes to get at and swap out without damaging interior parts.
I'd be interested to see even what an Indy would charge $$ labor for this?

Rudeney

Having worked at a dealership, I can tell you some things that happen. First, many techs don't have the knowledge and skills needed to solve problems with the more complex electronically controlled systems. This means they will rely strictly on the diagnostic steps programmed into SDS to do their jobs. While SDS is an excellent tool, it often gives multiple things to check, or it offers some complex diagnostic steps requiring electronic accessory tools to check the car's systems and electronic components. Techs that more mechanically-oriented and more used to replacing suspension components, starters, alternators and A/C system components may be a bit challenged when it comes to the logical problem-solving skills needed to work on these advanced systems.

SDS has a component called ASRA that lists "book rates", i.e. the standard rates of time MBZ believes the average tech should spend performing a specific task. This includes time for both diagnosis and removal/replacement. When MBZ covers the work under a warranty, this is the time the dealers are paid for, regardless of how long it actually took for the job. The dealers base their charges to self-pay customers on these book rates. A "green" tech doing something for the first time may take longer, but a seasoned tech who has performed the task dozens of times will likely beat the book rate. Basically, for the dealership, it should all average out in the long run, and for the customers, this protects them when inexperienced tech take an unusually long time to do the work.

The goal of the dealer's service department it to make a profit for the owners. Most of the profit at a dealership comes from the service department. Margins are very tight on new car sales so they make very little profit there. Dealers only sell new cars because otherwise, they would not be allowed to have a manufacturer-authorized service department. In addition to charging self-pay customers for services, and being paid by the manufacturer for warranty work, the service department is also paid bonuses. Manufacturers allocate bonuses based on performance, which is measured through customer surveys. This is why dealerships often work hard to earn all "excellent" survey ratings.

Because the service department is the main revenue-generator, it is staffed by commissioned salespeople, known as "Service Advisors". Often, the SA's are former new/used car salespeople. Sometimes the move to the SA job because they were not so good at selling cars, or sometimes it's because they don't want to work the longer hours on the sales side. Generally speaking, the SA's earn at least as much as the average new/used car salesperson. The SA's are usually not very knowledgeable of the technical/mechanical systems, but they often pickup on common things (like a bad CPS) through experience. There job is simply to be a liaison between the customers and the techs and to communicate needed services and persuade the customers to pay for them.

Parts are also a great source of profit. Dealers buy OE parts and supplies at a tremendous discount. Just like the MSRP of a new car, parts also have an MSRP. A good place to see this is mboemparts.com. They are an MBZ dealer outside of Chicago that sells on The Internet at a discount and they list the MSRP of the parts for comparison. Often, dealerships will mark-up the parts over the MSRP. That way, if they need to do any "customer recovery", they can "discount" the part back down to MSRP. Even if they knock of 20% of MSRP, they are likely still making a profit on parts.

Now, with all that said, the SAs are pushed to sell more chargeable services to customers and the techs are pushed to beat the book rates. Even when you take your car in for warranty work, the SA will almost always recommend some extra-cost service like brakes, tires, oil changes, transmission work, even paintless dent removal. When a tech encounters a diagnostic step where it's going to require several more hours of diagnosis, or one more hour to replace a part, guess what they choose? The quickest path to beat the book rates, of course (especially if the customer is paying). So what if that doesn't fix it? Well, they can show you the SDS printout that indicates the error could be caused by that part, and it's not the dealership's fault that MBZ cars are very complex and often need a lot of extra maintenance and repairs, right? Most customers, are just not knowledgeable enough to know that they are being taken advantage of. This is especially true of many MBZ owners.

What all this means is that when you take your car in for service to the dealer, you will often not get a quality diagnosis. Tech are often just not skilled in that work and the book rates don't allow for a lot of diagnostic time, especially if it does not result in the replacement of an expensive part. The SAs are not going to step in to help you dispute a charge because it cuts into their commission. Because of this, my advise to to avoid the dealership whenever possible. A good indy shop often has better diagnosticians. They can also often use less expensive aftermarket parts and don't worry about book rates. They do want to earn your continued business, so they have a vested interest in treating you fairly. They usually don't have commissioned sales people (SAs). Instead, you may be working with the owner, a manger, or even directly with a tech.

Rudeney

It's under the driver's side of the dash. You remove the plastic panel under the steering column, which is held in place by three Torx bolts and has two electrical connectors to disconnect. The ABC unit is right there, held in place with four nuts. Drop it down and remove the three electrical connectors. ASRA book rate is 36 minutes to R&R. Unless the tech is really careless, there's not much to damage.

knowbenz

I know what you are saying but I just wanted to make it clear that some people actually do understand the system and how to diagnose it.

FWIW this guy bought his own module from ebay, I simply diagnosed the thing so it doesn't really matter the price. This was on a CL so the module is in the left front fuse/module box under the hood, nothing gets broken to change it. On the SL its under the bottom left dash under panel. Remove the console trim panel on the drivers side and then remove the under dash panel. there are 4 10mm nuts holding the module to the bracket. It really isn't difficult and no idea why you would say without damaging interior parts. after replacing just calibrate plunger travel sensors, ride height, and load adjustment if it applies. If it has been diagnosed and they just want a module replaced and programed i would charge an hour labor personally

knowbenz

This is exactly why us indys keep busy. Some of the estimates we see from dealers are insane. If a tech takes the time to fully understand a system before getting into the diag it makes the process go so much smoother and easier. For the life of me I can't figure out why some techs will struggle for hours trying to figure something out and never once pull up the functions description of the related system.

Rudeney

That definitely happens, but those techs won't last long if they keep failing to come in under the book rates. And I don't fault the techs at all. They often come from other shops where they were never exposed to these types of complex electronically controlled systems. If you want to work on modern MBZ cars, you need to be bother a good mechanic and a good computer technician.

Hary Gahtoe

I changed ours out last fall.
The Star SDS retrieved some 800 recorded ABS ECU failures in it's lifetime
I was merely wondering what rate and hr quote you gave given the info volunteered that's all, but thanks for sharing info. It'll help others in deciding if they want to DIY or have a shop repair.

knowbenz

were you talking about that particular unit or to just swap a module in general? If you were talking about for that job I just did the diag for him for $99 he got his own module and programmed himself

Hary Gahtoe

Q&A was meant to be a generalization.


Since Rudeney already posted the ASRA time quote it would just be left up to the individual owner to decide if their repair skills and time would be better served having it serviced by MB dealer service dept, Indy or DIY.

Knowing this will help LGAFF or anyone before they are forced into a 3-4X $$ invoice at a dealership and possibly still have issues.
Everyone gains being better informed so thank you for the information.

pfarah77

Well said Rudeney!
My previous car was a 2012 C Class Coupe that had a persistent knocking sound coming from the passenger front corner while driving. The dealership had the car for three days and after replacing the entire front suspension (struts, links, sway-bar, etc.), one of the techs noticed the plastic wheel well was not secured properly. Although I received an entire front suspension system (and got to drive around in a brand new E350 for a few days), the SA advised me that all this work was on the house due to the continual misdiagnosis of my original concern. I admit that a very knowledgeable indy is the way to go.

LGAFF

I really appreciate the support here, I do all of my own work, but I know those cars up and down......I do intake cylinder head and intake porting for C4 ZR-1s(done about 18 cars), even upgraded my dads 89 Volvo 240 with cams and suspension(its still slow, lol).

Love Mercedes, their willingness to stand behind warranty of parts is poor....if you don't tow the car to them and let them remove it, they wont cover it.....had a bad pedal, and battery and they would not honor either

This car has just been a time eater and not as much repair info as you see on some other sites. Thanks to everyone for lending their thoughts.

Its funny the worst site I have experienced is the turbobricks.(Volvo) forum....you ask a question and they are complete asses. One even commented that I had better not mess with them because they could "smell BS from a mile away".....I was like come on its a Volvo 240.....