SL/R232: Is the AMG SL success story?
03-05-2023, 03:08 PM
#26
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Looking at convertible sales in the winter is meaningless and non conclusive.
I also find them a more difficult sell, but for different reasons that I stated earlier and to be fair, the R231 SL63 was an incredibly hard sell as well and that during the whole lifecycle of the model, not just the beginning.
Those cars could be had for 20% off anytime and used cars prices used to be worst…
Which was difficult to understand. I loved those SL’s but the 63 stood out for its lousy 7speed MCT transmission which was never updated to the much better performing 9 speed MCT at facelift time.
I think time will tell during the summer time once more properly spec’d 23 models are showing up, discounts off MSRP (which are available now) and MB contemplating to bring the smaller model here.
I also find them a more difficult sell, but for different reasons that I stated earlier and to be fair, the R231 SL63 was an incredibly hard sell as well and that during the whole lifecycle of the model, not just the beginning.
Those cars could be had for 20% off anytime and used cars prices used to be worst…
Which was difficult to understand. I loved those SL’s but the 63 stood out for its lousy 7speed MCT transmission which was never updated to the much better performing 9 speed MCT at facelift time.
I think time will tell during the summer time once more properly spec’d 23 models are showing up, discounts off MSRP (which are available now) and MB contemplating to bring the smaller model here.
03-05-2023, 03:12 PM
#27
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Wolfman was referring to R231 SL63 sales at 20% discounts off MSRP at the time when they were available for sale. I think that did happen often but not all the time like Wolfman said.
I know for a fact that R232 SLs which have been sitting for a while are sometimes being discounted to move. It takes a savvy buyer to negotiate a discount in this environment, but it’s possible. Dealers eventually tire of watching cars collect dust in the showroom for 30+ days let alone 60+ days.
I just bought a German luxury convertible for 4.66% under MSRP without trying very hard.
I know for a fact that R232 SLs which have been sitting for a while are sometimes being discounted to move. It takes a savvy buyer to negotiate a discount in this environment, but it’s possible. Dealers eventually tire of watching cars collect dust in the showroom for 30+ days let alone 60+ days.
I just bought a German luxury convertible for 4.66% under MSRP without trying very hard.
03-05-2023, 03:34 PM
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I think the 7 speed feels good when in faster modes (S+/Race) but if you start driving a 9 speed MCT and the Getrag DCT you'll appreciate how well they are mated to the AMG engine. Unfortunately I can't tell how the 9 speed would be with the M157 engine but with the 4 liter engine it is an excellent package.
In regards to the 911, this is unfortunately a tired comparison. Same as comparative resale values. Porsche fine tuned the 911 market and calibrated supply and demand for a very long time. They have done an outstanding job and are being rewarded for it.
03-05-2023, 03:37 PM
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Wolfman was referring to R231 SL63 sales at 20% discounts off MSRP at the time when they were available for sale. I think that did happen often but not all the time like Wolfman said.
I know for a fact that R232 SLs which have been sitting for a while are sometimes being discounted to move. It takes a savvy buyer to negotiate a discount in this environment, but it’s possible. Dealers eventually tire of watching cars collect dust in the showroom for 30+ days let alone 60+ days.
I just bought a German luxury convertible for 4.66% under MSRP without trying very hard.
I know for a fact that R232 SLs which have been sitting for a while are sometimes being discounted to move. It takes a savvy buyer to negotiate a discount in this environment, but it’s possible. Dealers eventually tire of watching cars collect dust in the showroom for 30+ days let alone 60+ days.
I just bought a German luxury convertible for 4.66% under MSRP without trying very hard.
What did you buy?
03-05-2023, 03:38 PM
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Wolfman was referring to R231 SL63 sales at 20% discounts off MSRP at the time when they were available for sale. I think that did happen often but not all the time like Wolfman said.
I know for a fact that R232 SLs which have been sitting for a while are sometimes being discounted to move. It takes a savvy buyer to negotiate a discount in this environment, but it’s possible. Dealers eventually tire of watching cars collect dust in the showroom for 30+ days let alone 60+ days.
I just bought a German luxury convertible for 4.66% under MSRP without trying very hard.
I know for a fact that R232 SLs which have been sitting for a while are sometimes being discounted to move. It takes a savvy buyer to negotiate a discount in this environment, but it’s possible. Dealers eventually tire of watching cars collect dust in the showroom for 30+ days let alone 60+ days.
I just bought a German luxury convertible for 4.66% under MSRP without trying very hard.
03-05-2023, 03:39 PM
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03-05-2023, 03:41 PM
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03-05-2023, 03:45 PM
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03-05-2023, 03:51 PM
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The 9 speed is much more responsive and shifts in any mode from 1st gear (the 7 speed shifts from 2nd gear in comfort). Big lag on paddle shifts, especially in manual mode, wonky downshifts... different gearing.
I think the 7 speed feels good when in faster modes (S+/Race) but if you start driving a 9 speed MCT and the Getrag DCT you'll appreciate how well they are mated to the AMG engine. Unfortunately I can't tell how the 9 speed would be with the M157 engine but with the 4 liter engine it is an excellent package.
In regards to the 911, this is unfortunately a tired comparison. Same as comparative resale values. Porsche fine tuned the 911 market and calibrated supply and demand for a very long time. They have done an outstanding job and are being rewarded for it.
I think the 7 speed feels good when in faster modes (S+/Race) but if you start driving a 9 speed MCT and the Getrag DCT you'll appreciate how well they are mated to the AMG engine. Unfortunately I can't tell how the 9 speed would be with the M157 engine but with the 4 liter engine it is an excellent package.
In regards to the 911, this is unfortunately a tired comparison. Same as comparative resale values. Porsche fine tuned the 911 market and calibrated supply and demand for a very long time. They have done an outstanding job and are being rewarded for it.
My experience is the 7-speed MCT more or less behaves like the 9 speed with 2 fewer gears and slightly less responsiveness in general. The 7-speed MCT shifts as fast as my 2022 Porsche PDK between gears. What the 7- and 9-speed MCT transmissions do that no Porsche PDK does (can’t speak for any GT cars PDK) is shift down multiple gears with a single long hold of the downshift lever.
The 9-speed MCT in my facelift 2019 C63S coupe was a bit clunky. Yes, it was. Coming to a stop was usually a clunk-fest with accompanied shuttering. Also the clutch seemed to slip a small bit when driving off. These may be connected to the tuning involved for the C63S.
The 9-speed MCT is better than the 7-speed. But I don’t think the 7-speed is lousy, and I don’t think there is a night and day difference between the two.
Last edited by 348SStb; 03-05-2023 at 03:53 PM.
03-05-2023, 04:01 PM
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I don’t know about up north but discounts, let alone 10% anywhere in the SE region aren’t happening. Many still have addendums even on 22’s…if a 23 can be had at msrp it’s rather rare at the moment. Since you’re in the north care to share a dealer contact you think might offer 10%?
Look at every car you like in cold weather states on cars.com, etc. Doing that towards the end of the month can help. Smaller dealers outside large networks are ideal. Not every dealer can move $200k cars...
Send each one same message. You like the car and are reading to pull the trigger if they meet your (not outlandish) discount. Let's say, 10% off. You can transact right away but do not mention how you'll pay. Cash is unattractive given the profit-sharing model with MB for financing/leasing.
They loose the service revenue but they will be wiling to move the car to drop the flooring costs.
Send it to maybe 15 dealers or so for sufficient feedback. Some will not respond, some will tell to to take a hike and pound sand and others will counter. Then just focus on the ones that are closest to your discount request... Dealers will come back to you if they have no leads.
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RJC (03-05-2023)
03-05-2023, 04:18 PM
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I owned a 9-speed MCT in a 2019 AMG C63S. I’m familiar.
My experience is the 7-speed MCT more or less behaves like the 9 speed with 2 fewer gears and slightly less responsiveness in general. The 7-speed MCT shifts as fast as my 2022 Porsche PDK between gears. What the 7- and 9-speed MCT transmissions do that no Porsche PDK does (can’t speak for any GT cars PDK) is shift down multiple gears with a single long hold of the downshift lever.
The 9-speed MCT in my facelift 2019 C63S coupe was a bit clunky. Yes, it was. Coming to a stop was usually a clunk-fest with accompanied shuttering. Also the clutch seemed to slip a small bit when driving off. These may be connected to the tuning involved for the C63S.
The 9-speed MCT is better than the 7-speed. But I don’t think the 7-speed is lousy, and I don’t think there is a night and day difference between the two.
My experience is the 7-speed MCT more or less behaves like the 9 speed with 2 fewer gears and slightly less responsiveness in general. The 7-speed MCT shifts as fast as my 2022 Porsche PDK between gears. What the 7- and 9-speed MCT transmissions do that no Porsche PDK does (can’t speak for any GT cars PDK) is shift down multiple gears with a single long hold of the downshift lever.
The 9-speed MCT in my facelift 2019 C63S coupe was a bit clunky. Yes, it was. Coming to a stop was usually a clunk-fest with accompanied shuttering. Also the clutch seemed to slip a small bit when driving off. These may be connected to the tuning involved for the C63S.
The 9-speed MCT is better than the 7-speed. But I don’t think the 7-speed is lousy, and I don’t think there is a night and day difference between the two.
The GT models have the 7DCL750 DCT from Getrag, same as the Ferrari 458 Italia although the gearing is a bit different. 2nd gen. Ford GT uses the same gearing as the AMG's.
03-05-2023, 06:28 PM
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Let me check with some that I know and see how they come back. But you can try what I found to be a rather effective method. Started doing that when we got our BMW M8 Comp coupe. Almost $30k off just 2 months after they launched the car in the US and stuffed the channel just like MB did with the SL's...
Look at every car you like in cold weather states on cars.com, etc. Doing that towards the end of the month can help. Smaller dealers outside large networks are ideal. Not every dealer can move $200k cars...
Send each one same message. You like the car and are reading to pull the trigger if they meet your (not outlandish) discount. Let's say, 10% off. You can transact right away but do not mention how you'll pay. Cash is unattractive given the profit-sharing model with MB for financing/leasing.
They loose the service revenue but they will be wiling to move the car to drop the flooring costs.
Send it to maybe 15 dealers or so for sufficient feedback. Some will not respond, some will tell to to take a hike and pound sand and others will counter. Then just focus on the ones that are closest to your discount request... Dealers will come back to you if they have no leads.
Look at every car you like in cold weather states on cars.com, etc. Doing that towards the end of the month can help. Smaller dealers outside large networks are ideal. Not every dealer can move $200k cars...
Send each one same message. You like the car and are reading to pull the trigger if they meet your (not outlandish) discount. Let's say, 10% off. You can transact right away but do not mention how you'll pay. Cash is unattractive given the profit-sharing model with MB for financing/leasing.
They loose the service revenue but they will be wiling to move the car to drop the flooring costs.
Send it to maybe 15 dealers or so for sufficient feedback. Some will not respond, some will tell to to take a hike and pound sand and others will counter. Then just focus on the ones that are closest to your discount request... Dealers will come back to you if they have no leads.
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toddw (03-17-2023)
03-05-2023, 06:31 PM
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Much of our driving involves city traffic and I found the 7 speed MCT to be quite clunky; maybe different on an open road but nowhere like the 9 speed. To me the difference was night/day, but also different cars. Our E63s had a lot more power and AWD. Admittedly our M8 with a ZF slush box did a better job here. Again, car specific.
The GT models have the 7DCL750 DCT from Getrag, same as the Ferrari 458 Italia although the gearing is a bit different. 2nd gen. Ford GT uses the same gearing as the AMG's.
The GT models have the 7DCL750 DCT from Getrag, same as the Ferrari 458 Italia although the gearing is a bit different. 2nd gen. Ford GT uses the same gearing as the AMG's.
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Streamliner (03-05-2023)
03-05-2023, 06:37 PM
#39
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Do you really think disaster is the appropriate word? Did you own a 7-speed MCT and hate it? I my SL63 with 7-speed MCT is far from a disaster. It suits the car very well. There are zero issues with it. It’s just not quite as responsive as the 9-speed. And it doesn’t behave like a conventional automatic, which I accept and do not use as a factor when evaluating it. The single clutch automated transmissions pioneered by Ferrari (F1) were criticized mostly by people who didn’t know how to drive a manual. The MCT is not a conventional automatic transmission.
I do agree with you on this — the 8-speed ZF would be better. I think it’s better than everything out there. I don’t understand why Mercedes invests its time, energy, and money making its own transmissions.
Last edited by 348SStb; 03-05-2023 at 06:49 PM.
03-05-2023, 07:01 PM
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I note that 7G is a torque converter transmission whereas 7-speed MCT is a multi-clutch transmission without a torque converter.
Do you really think disaster is the appropriate word? Did you own a 7-speed MCT and hate it? I my SL63 with 7-speed MCT is far from a disaster. It suits the car very well. There are zero issues with it. It’s just not quite as responsive as the 9-speed. And it doesn’t behave like a conventional automatic, which I accept and do not use as a factor when evaluating it. The single clutch automated transmissions pioneered by Ferrari (F1) were criticized mostly by people who didn’t know how to drive a manual. The MCT is not a conventional automatic transmission.
I do agree with you on this — the 8-speed ZF would be better. I think it’s better than everything out there. I don’t understand why Mercedes invests its time, energy, and money making its own transmissions
.
Do you really think disaster is the appropriate word? Did you own a 7-speed MCT and hate it? I my SL63 with 7-speed MCT is far from a disaster. It suits the car very well. There are zero issues with it. It’s just not quite as responsive as the 9-speed. And it doesn’t behave like a conventional automatic, which I accept and do not use as a factor when evaluating it. The single clutch automated transmissions pioneered by Ferrari (F1) were criticized mostly by people who didn’t know how to drive a manual. The MCT is not a conventional automatic transmission.
I do agree with you on this — the 8-speed ZF would be better. I think it’s better than everything out there. I don’t understand why Mercedes invests its time, energy, and money making its own transmissions
.
Last edited by RJC; 03-05-2023 at 07:23 PM.
03-05-2023, 07:33 PM
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I note that 7G is a torque converter transmission whereas 7-speed MCT is a multi-clutch transmission without a torque converter.
Do you really think disaster is the appropriate word? Did you own a 7-speed MCT and hate it? I my SL63 with 7-speed MCT is far from a disaster. It suits the car very well. There are zero issues with it. It’s just not quite as responsive as the 9-speed. And it doesn’t behave like a conventional automatic, which I accept and do not use as a factor when evaluating it. The single clutch automated transmissions pioneered by Ferrari (F1) were criticized mostly by people who didn’t know how to drive a manual. The MCT is not a conventional automatic transmission.
I do agree with you on this — the 8-speed ZF would be better. I think it’s better than everything out there. I don’t understand why Mercedes invests its time, energy, and money making its own transmissions.
Do you really think disaster is the appropriate word? Did you own a 7-speed MCT and hate it? I my SL63 with 7-speed MCT is far from a disaster. It suits the car very well. There are zero issues with it. It’s just not quite as responsive as the 9-speed. And it doesn’t behave like a conventional automatic, which I accept and do not use as a factor when evaluating it. The single clutch automated transmissions pioneered by Ferrari (F1) were criticized mostly by people who didn’t know how to drive a manual. The MCT is not a conventional automatic transmission.
I do agree with you on this — the 8-speed ZF would be better. I think it’s better than everything out there. I don’t understand why Mercedes invests its time, energy, and money making its own transmissions.
The SL63 would have been better suited with a different transmission, given the audience. The MCT was the biggest complaint on the R231 63. The SL 65 on the other hand had an old-school slush box and was well liked by its owners. Of course, that car had bigger issues dynamically...
The AMG GT models were very successful as a coupe, less so as the roaster. Not enough of an audience. The new AMG SL will find its audience IMO for all the reasons I have mentioned previously.
Last edited by Wolfman; 03-05-2023 at 07:35 PM.
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California John (03-05-2023)
03-05-2023, 08:13 PM
#42
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My experience with the 7G was as I wrote “essentially a disaster”, it was clunky and harsh in its operation especially for vehicles like S class coupes and sedans, and is far from catering to its intended audience as it should/was intended. I failed to mention due to the trans’ poor operation it was in service a lot, never getting it right even with the help of Germany, valvebody/megatonic tuning, replacement etc.
With respect to the MCT as in the S63 Coupes - I was given one to try for an extended overnight test drive, it was new and just PDI’d and wasn’t a good experience at all. I have two friends that bought them even after me telling them not to, both kept them for a very short time due to the trans and the trans only. Too bad the 63 S coupe is an otherwise lovely sport GT.
With respect to the MCT as in the S63 Coupes - I was given one to try for an extended overnight test drive, it was new and just PDI’d and wasn’t a good experience at all. I have two friends that bought them even after me telling them not to, both kept them for a very short time due to the trans and the trans only. Too bad the 63 S coupe is an otherwise lovely sport GT.
Last edited by RJC; 03-05-2023 at 08:23 PM.
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chassis (03-06-2023)
03-05-2023, 08:33 PM
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My experience with the 7G was as I wrote “essentially a disaster”, it was clunky and harsh in its operation especially for vehicles like S class coupes and sedans, and is far from catering to its intended audience as it should/was intended. I failed to mention due to the trans’ poor operation it was in service a lot, never getting it right even with the help of Germany, valvebody/megatonic tuning, replacement etc.
With respect to the MCT as in the S63 Coupes - I was given one to try for an extended overnight test drive, it was new and just PDI’d and wasn’t a good experience at all. I have two friends that bought them even after me telling them not to, both kept them for a very short time due to the trans and the trans only. Too bad the 63 S coupe is an otherwise lovely sport GT.
With respect to the MCT as in the S63 Coupes - I was given one to try for an extended overnight test drive, it was new and just PDI’d and wasn’t a good experience at all. I have two friends that bought them even after me telling them not to, both kept them for a very short time due to the trans and the trans only. Too bad the 63 S coupe is an otherwise lovely sport GT.
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Wolfman (03-05-2023)
03-05-2023, 08:54 PM
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2020 S560 Sedan, 2019 SL450, 2019 E450 Luxury Trim Wagon, '24 BMW I7 on order...
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RJC (03-05-2023)
03-05-2023, 09:21 PM
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My experience is quite different. I had a GTS for a couple of years then got a GTC vert for 3 years and am now driving an SL 63. Had been wondering about the transmission - because I loved the trannies in the AMG GTS and GTC. But I find the transmission in the AMG SL 63 excellent - for my use. Whether I loaf through town, slide through a long sweeper with my foot to floor transiting the exit point perfectly or whatever. Quite adaptable to my needs. I guess this is just another what one experiences and expects.
I’m happy to hear the 9G in your new 63 is operating well…good to know.
03-05-2023, 09:52 PM
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The 9 speeds in our SL450 and E450 wagon perform flawlessly. The 9 speed in my 2020 S560 had such a harsh 4-3 downshift, they bought the car back. The 9 speed in my 2022 S580, at lower speeds, in traffic, is downright sloppy, often hunting for the right gear. I too wish MB would leave transmissions to the true experts.
03-05-2023, 11:34 PM
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California John (03-06-2023)
03-06-2023, 11:56 AM
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Agree disaster is a strong phrase, wether it's the G-tronic or the MCT. Ultimately one has to recognize that the car has to match the audience. When the AMG GT/GTC roadsters were launched, a number of SL customers tried the car and were shocked by the things that made these cars awesome. Bare bone, firm, loud. Difficult to enter due the performance seats/seating. Those cars were less practical, lousy rear view, tiny trunk. On the other hand, these cars are a joy to drive, lightweight (lighter than a 911 TS cab), front-mid engine, rear wheel steering, transaxle. According to our dealer, not one SL customer switched. Cool with me, I never looked back
The SL63 would have been better suited with a different transmission, given the audience. The MCT was the biggest complaint on the R231 63. The SL 65 on the other hand had an old-school slush box and was well liked by its owners. Of course, that car had bigger issues dynamically...
The AMG GT models were very successful as a coupe, less so as the roaster. Not enough of an audience. The new AMG SL will find its audience IMO for all the reasons I have mentioned previously.
The SL63 would have been better suited with a different transmission, given the audience. The MCT was the biggest complaint on the R231 63. The SL 65 on the other hand had an old-school slush box and was well liked by its owners. Of course, that car had bigger issues dynamically...
The AMG GT models were very successful as a coupe, less so as the roaster. Not enough of an audience. The new AMG SL will find its audience IMO for all the reasons I have mentioned previously.
03-06-2023, 12:42 PM
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My experience with the 7G was as I wrote “essentially a disaster”, it was clunky and harsh in its operation especially for vehicles like S class coupes and sedans, and is far from catering to its intended audience as it should/was intended. I failed to mention due to the trans’ poor operation it was in service a lot, never getting it right even with the help of Germany, valvebody/megatonic tuning, replacement etc.
With respect to the MCT as in the S63 Coupes - I was given one to try for an extended overnight test drive, it was new and just PDI’d and wasn’t a good experience at all. I have two friends that bought them even after me telling them not to, both kept them for a very short time due to the trans and the trans only. Too bad the 63 S coupe is an otherwise lovely sport GT.
With respect to the MCT as in the S63 Coupes - I was given one to try for an extended overnight test drive, it was new and just PDI’d and wasn’t a good experience at all. I have two friends that bought them even after me telling them not to, both kept them for a very short time due to the trans and the trans only. Too bad the 63 S coupe is an otherwise lovely sport GT.
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Streamliner (03-06-2023)
03-06-2023, 12:43 PM
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The 9 speeds in our SL450 and E450 wagon perform flawlessly. The 9 speed in my 2020 S560 had such a harsh 4-3 downshift, they bought the car back. The 9 speed in my 2022 S580, at lower speeds, in traffic, is downright sloppy, often hunting for the right gear. I too wish MB would leave transmissions to the true experts.
