ScottCLS55

No mirror.. Its a SUNROOF. A very rare option and I love it..

xecution

The truth is, you already answered the question. I, like most, felt the Ferrari was not very very fast (on paper at least), got too much attention, wasn't a daily driver or as comfortable, At the time I thought I wanted a faster car that would give me the best of both worlds without having a crowd around it when I come out of the Mall. After being apart from my Ferrari for a short time. I missed a car that makes your heart pound every time you merge onto the high way and floor it. Also, my previous was a manual 1999 360 Modena (coupe), this is a 2004 360 F1 spider.

xecution

Okay sorry guys for having to answer every post, but I couldn't resist So here goes.

I felt exactly like you about the car being impractical and not very fast. (although for some strange reason it gives you more of a thrill when you mash the pedal, there is something about that engine that is just so instant.) the problem is I have a daily driver in my GL450 and I just didn't feel that serious sports car thrill in the SL. AMG has done a very good job of taking the SL car to the more sporty level, but they haven't achieved the feel, sound, and passion of driving a Ferrari, lambo, Astin Martin or other exotics no matter how fast it goes. If the best 0-60 time or quarter mile was the biggest factor, i'd just go buy a corvette Z06

IngenereAMG

Wow! I seemed to be getting slammed from some non Fcar people for my opinions.

Maybe I have been around the cars for a long time, that has given me the feeling that the new cars aren't very exotic. But they really aren't....and they are very common in LA, Scottsdale, Grenwhich, etc. If I remember correctly they made about 7000 TRs, 9000 308 and 355s, and they made 18000 360s.

I think the interiors have a massed produced look and feel to them. They just don't feel exotic to me. Period. I have driven them and they are great. I don't feel the sense of occasion, like I did in my F40, TR, 308, 348 and even the Mondial t. Its just a car. And as far as reliability of the older stuff goes........never had problems. Period. That "doesn't run, poor this and that is BS.

My AM V8 Vantage is far more exotic and special than a 360/430 to me. But I do like the Gallardo, and I loved driving the Superleggera! Thank heaven for choices!!

LetsJet

You're getting slammed by Fcar guys too.........lol

There were approx 200 355 F1 Red/black Ferrari Spiders produced. Drop out the ones that are gone and I don't think that you will see one too often.

IngenereAMG

That's my point. Since the 360 series started, they are producing as many cars as they can put the horsey on. 18,000+ cars does not make a rare exotic. I know that they will make more 430s. You don't see 355s, 348s, 328s, TRs, etc., which is part of what makes them special. And its not becuse they are in the shop, its because there were so few made. Like I said...mine have never had problems. The AC works, and I am only 5'5"...so I guess I count as one of the little Italians that these cars were made for.

The bottom line for me is that I am not that fond of the newer Fcars, and that's just personal preference. If you like them, then that's where your money should go. And Ferrrari's have traditionally been a fairly safe place to park some car money, because they don't depreciate as bad as other cars, like the rocks that we own. One of the reasons has been under production...but I think the newer cars will never really be rare and thus, will depreciate. The only modern Fcar that I would consider is a Challenge Stradale......but having said that I took one on in my SL55 and another in my M3....on windy mountain roads.......and left them for dead.

Anyway.....I am just rambling on!! If you like the 430/360...then you should live that experience.........but, please don't turn into the typical American Fcar owner and not drive it. Drive it, hard. Track it and enjoy it, because they are a great experience.

xecution

Ingenere, are you actually saying that you feel the SL has a more exotic feel than the Ferrari? I have been driving the one I am buying and my SL55 back to back over the past week and I beg to differ. I don't think anyone is saying it is faster, but a Vette Z06 is faster also, Its not all about speed. You talk a lot about the older Ferraris being more exotic. Either way, I don't think you can really compare the auto market of yester year to today, a lot has changed since then. Mercedes is now making 600+ horsepower cars. Audi now makes Lambos, Ford makes Jags, the technology is through the roof. But there is no way anyone outside of us very opinionated car guys thinks a Ferrari is not an exotic car. Ferraris lesser model is the F430 still a 200G+ car. Mercedes lesser model is the C-class, need I say more? Although you are not pleased with todays ferraris, that is only because you have owned yesterdays models to compare to, but most people haven't.

To quote a line from the movie cars (my sons favorite)
Better than a Ferrari huh? ummmmmmmmmmmm, NO

TimsSL65

Ingenere,

The fact is that many of the current model Ferrari's are sold out years in advance (F430, 599, etc.). In addition, the slightly used examples of these models demand huge premiums to the MSRP (F430 Spider +100,000, 599 +250,000, etc.). The facts speak for themselves...many people consider Ferrari's to be a very special car!

Tim

CY

F-car

IngenereAMG

Look......I founded a region of the FCA, am a chief instructor and track events coordinator, and I can tell you first hand that most of the guys buying the 430s and 599s don't drive the cars farther than Starbucks and are mainly purchased as jewelry. The economy is great and there is more money than sense.

The premiums are there for the the newbies that have bought into the whole "gotta have it" thing. That's the only thing that makes them special. I bought and sold, very quickly early 360 coupes and spyders, as well as 430s, and I honestly couldn't believe the que of guys that would pay the price. I also helped sell a $300K 599 for $510. Premiums on new cars are like throwing money down the drain. Hell, I was offered $50K over for my SL55 when I got it......I should have taken it!

The 599 will be a $150K car in 5-6 years, and since nobody in the US drives their cars, they will be nice low milers.

I am not saying that the SL55 is more exotic than Ferrari. It might have been, but they overproduced the hell out of it. I was told that the SL55 would be limited. It was.......limited to as many as they could pump out! What I am saying that it is a better performance car.

I am not debating that the new Ferrari's are good dynamically, because they are. What I am saying is they are not special, and that reason is they are overproduced, and Ferrari has whored out their name and logo. I also feel that the designs are not that special. The 599 looks like a nice Corvette to me, and the 430 is just odd. Now a Pagani.......that's exotic, and special. It has the right look, and the right performance. It is truly a hand finished piece of kit.

xecution

I have to say Ingenere, although you are speaking from a very informed position, You are the minority in your views.
Oh, and you say the economy is great ? Maybe to guys like us who can afford to drive Ferraris and Mercedes we don't notice it, but from the people I know, everyone is complaining about the economy, and from some of the small side businesses I own, I have to agree. Sorry to go off topic I just had to throw that in.

xecution

I highly doubt this. A 1999 (8year old) 360 Modena is still priced around $125K. I know, I just sold mines and got a trade in value of $110K.
Since we are on the subject. Does anyone have an answer for why the Mercedes Depreciates so fast, unlike a Ferrari? This question is especially for those who think the Merc is a better car.

absent

We already know you are the instructor etc,etc,no need to repeat it in every post.
You are generalizing,don't know about your neighborhood but reality is quite opposite,nowadays people drive Fcars more then ever,track days are more popular then ever,a lot of guys use them as daily drivers (impossible in the past because of poor reliability and poor design,unsuitable for regular use)
Modern Ferraris can be enjoyed more because that's what they were designed for,unlike Enzo's creations that were basically a means to finance his Team racing efforts only.
Also ,being the "chief instructor",how can you even claim that SL (any one of them) is "better dynamically"???
As xecution mentioned , better acceleration does not make it a better sports car.
SLs are great cruisers but with their weight and average brakes (even SL65) they are far from dynamically superior.
Just don't give any more examples how you blow all 360s in the twisties( no idea who drove them)
As far as Pagani is concerned,yes ,it really is a great boutique product with outsourced engine but it is not going to be around in a few more years when Mr Pagani either gets bored or runs out of $$$.
It also is on a different level price wise, so no sense comparing it to cars 1/2 it's price.
Please,don't take this post as an attack on you ,I only have completely opposite opinion to yours .(and I've "been around" also. )

TimsSL65

Ingenere,

Suggesting that a Ferrari 599 could drop 70% from current market values (in 5-6 years) is silly. Before you make such arbitrary claims, you should look for some supporting historical reference. The fact is, NO modern (well maintained, average milage) two passenger Ferrari has ever realized price appreciation approaching your expectation. Like you, I am very active in the auto community. I have owned several Ferrari's, and in excess of 50 personal cars in the last 20 years (all for pleasure, I'm not a dealer). I appreciate your opinions, but you loose credibility when you start pulling ridiculous numbers out of the air.

Tim

transferred

Hmmm, from my experience at Willow with a friends 360 I would have to say that the brakes on the 360 are sadly lacking for track application. The pedal went long staggeringly quickly and any kind of effectiveness went with it shortly thereafter. A base Carrera has far superior brakes.

I'm with you as regards handling though. Very tidy, but ceramics are an essential upgrade so I'd love to try a 360CS, which could only be blown into the weeds by *anything* if driven by a total novice. It is an amazing vehicle, by all accounts.

Tuskir

I would personally go with a gallardo for the same money (mid to high 100's). 360 spyder is just too slow (it won't even run 12's in the 1/4) and looks too dated for my taste (remember that it came out in 99). Another thing is that ferrari's out of warranty are rediculously expensive to maintain and have numerous problems. I dunno man... for the same money, gallardo, ford GT, 997TT, SL65 makes more sense to me.

IngenereAMG

Tim:

My feelings on the 599 ARE based on history. Just look at the history of the 550 (the car that replaced the 550/575), which was 250+ when it was new. A 5-7 year old car with 10-20K miles on the clock can be readily had for $110K. The modern front engine V12s depreciate like plain old used cars. That is what I am baseing my 599 predictions on. The 612 will be worse. Good 456's are easy to buy for less than $70K, and that was more expensive than the 550.

Our AMG's depreciation is quite simply a matter of supply and demand...they made too many.

As far as daiy drivabilty.....I daily drove an F40 for 5 years (as part of a rotation of cars I had), with no problems. The only thing that the new cars have is a bit more lusso, and I suppose that's what the market wants now. Maybe therin lies what I find special in the older cars.....the rawness factor. The new cars simply don't have it. That may also why I have gravitated to the CS and the Superleggera, because they do.

Maybe my area is different, because I can't get these guys to do anything with their Ferrari's other than PPE (Pose, Park, and Eat)....and track days...forget about it. I arrange track events and its me and a rotating 2-3 guys. I would love to get a bunch of Ferrari's out to the track, but in my experience in this region, it just won't happen, unless you bring a mobile detailer, massage therapist and a caterer. I am not joking.....those were actual suggestions!

The SL55 may not have the name, logo and cache as the car with the horse logo, but to me they both provide a great, modern driving experience...and like I said earlier, I have had no problems running away from modern Ferrari's with the SL.......ON MOUNTAIN ROADS, as well as leaving them for dead on the straights. Based on that experience.......which is the better sports car?

xecution

Okay, not an attack on your choices but just my opinion.
Gallardo - Although exotic looking, not special at all, too generic interior, looks more like a $40k car inside, too many Audi parts, I've only heard complaints and regrets from previous Ferrari owners.

Ford GT - Ford, need I say more. well okay, Ford dealerships can't even get rid of them, I am a personal friend with a Ford dealership owner, Dan Desantis and he drives a Ferrari.

997TT - although a great choice as far as Performance and speed, I've recently owned a 996TT and Cayman S and if any body style is outdated its a porsche.

SL65 - Well my post originally shows that the SL65 is on my radar, although i must say, I am leading towards the Ferrari, since my car now is an SL55 I doubt a little more speed will give me the feeling driving a Ferrari does.

Oh, and obviously maintenance for a Ferrari is all part of ownership. If you own a car like a Ferrari or an SL65, things like maintenance and gas prices and stuff like that don't really factor into the equation.

xecution

I don't believe depriciation has anything to do with the fact of how many were made. It's not that easy to find an SL65 and they have dropped around 35% in one year. They make tons of Lexus cars and they have the least depreciation percentage of any normal car and wasn't it you who said they make too many of the 360. Also I think enough people have posted the fact that winning a race, does not make a better car. The Corvette Z06 would beat an SL65, 360 and even an F430 in a race but that doesn't mean I would buy one. And personally I don't think an SL55 would beat a 360 unless the SL had mods, from my driving and ownership experience at least. Oh and maybe where you live people don't go to the track often in Ferraris, but my good friend John Tirell from IFS and a member of Team Pillota would disagree. And one last thing, as you have previously mentioned the Challenge Stradale is a more raw and performance feeling car. Well, isn't the CS the performance variant of the normal 360 just as AMG is to SL. in that case, maybe we should be comparing the 360 to the SL550 and the CS to the AMG.

TimsSL65

Ingenere,

You stated very specifically that the 599 will see a 70% price drop in 5-7 years. Lets consider the mathematics of the examples that you give. The current price range for a 7 year old 550 (using Dupont Registry and eBay) is approximately $130m-$140M. This is depreciation of 48% from the original MSRP (conservatively using the cheapest price in the range). The current price range for a 5 year old 575 is approximately $150m-$160m. This represents depreciation of 38% from the original MSRP (agian, using the conservative cheapest price). The 456 example that you reference is not applicable to the conversation. Please note that my comment specifically referenced two passenger Ferrari's (I had a feeling you would mention the 456). I'm certain that you are aware that the 456 is a four passenger Ferrari. The bottom line is that 38% and 48% are a far cry from your 70% expectation!


Your comment relative to "I have had no problems running away from modern Ferrari's with the SL.......ON MOUNTAIN ROADS" is rather interesting. The 9/06 issue of Road and Track (http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....rticle_id=3776) ran an article title Word Superpowers. Among other things, they set out to identify the best handling of the supercars. The cars tested were as follows: Corvette Z06, Viper SRT10, Ford GT, Ferrari F430, Lamborghini Gallardo, Porsche 911 Turbo. The concluding statement relative to the Ferrari was, “Incredibly balanced, easy to drive, very correctable, supple, and stuck. The rest of us concurred, as did our test gear—the Ferrari clipped off the quickest lap time by nearly a half-second". Considering that your SL55 "has no problems running away from a modern Ferrari (on mountain roads)", by default, you are suggesting that the SL55 is a better handling car than all of the vehicles referenced in the Road and Track test. I doubt it!

My SL600 is an overweight pig that can take the Ferrari on straight line acceleration. My Ferrari 360 (does not handle as well as a more modern F430 referenced above), on the other hand, can blow the socks off the SL in curvy mountain roads. Given that I own both cars (and like both for different reasons), my comments are absolutely impartial.

Tim

blazinginder

get the 360 CS and call it a day

IngenereAMG

We must be from 2 different planets!

The Gallardo is a brilliant car, and I have a number of friends that were Ferrari owners who have them, and would never go back, because it is exotic and a great driving car and package.

You are about 6 months back with your Ford GT info. You can't touch them now at MSRP. I just sold a new Heritage for $190, and a 600mile Tungsten for $180.

The Porsche may be dated, looks wise, but it is a brilliant driver's car. I would pick a GT3.

Depreciation IS a factor of supply AND demand. The reason SL65's loose value is because they look exactly like the cheaper cars, and even though the straight line performance is brilliant...the average person doesn't want to spend that much more for a car that looks exactly like a cheaper car. Which is why I sold my position for a SL65. It doesn't provide an extra $60K in value over the SL55 and the market has spoken. They are a great used car value.

The whole getting raped by Ferrari service being a badge of honor is BS and gets old in a hurry. Nobody likes to be ripped off, and that's what Ferrari service departments do. If you can do your own work, they really aren't hard to maintain, but frankly Lamborghini makes a better car that does not cost a fortune to maintain at the dealer. The fist time I saw a Gallardo on the rack, and took a look at all the breakable items that had Audi logos on them, I knew they were well engineered. They are also cheap to service. If you are going to call Lamborghini an Audi, then you have to call Ferrari a Fiat, and I think I know who has the better engineers.

...and from a long term perspective they have made too many 360s....18,000 or so. They are holding OK now because they look close enough to the latest bling, the 430, that there are still enough people who will spring for that car (supply and demand). But when Ferrari introduces a radically different car, all the jewelry and hairy chests will run for the newest design. I've watched it for the past 20 years.

IngenereAMG

I am not considering a 70% drop in the value of the car. The car's MSRP is less than $300K. Its around 50%. If you were stupid enough to pay a premium, you won't see it back. I sold my 360 Spyder (200K car), for 295, that car is now worth about 135-145. It didn't lose over 1/2 its value, the genius that paid a premium, tossed it away so that he could have the first spyder. The 599's premium is just the cost of being the first and not having a relationship with Ferrari, but in 5 years or less will be worthless and the car will depreciate from its MSRP.

If you are using the Dupont registry....you are overpaying, and overestimating. Ebay asking prices are not sales. Most sales happen off line...and for less. Real money on the 550 is 110-120 retail, and a bit more for the 575. If you want a 575 for 160, I would be happy to get one for you!

.......And hear goes the magazine racing. I thought you were better than that. I am telling you what the cars do......from personal experience, not what some car magazine says. The 360 handles great, up until 8/10....and then it gets pretty tricky. My experience with the SL55 is that it is sure footed all the way through...it's obviously helped by ABC, etc., but it is very well done. The AMGs real world limits that are usable, are higher.

The 600 IS a nose heavy car, and maybe that is one of the reasons the 65 takes as big a hit as it does. Its just not as good an all rounder as the 55.

Look...if you want a 360, then you should get one. Any exotic car is a must do experience for a car guy. Maybe I have just been there and done that so many times that I am way to objective anymore. Labels don't matter. Logos don't matter. Its all about the driving experience and dynamics. Frankly speaking, my M3 is a brilliant driver's car.....for a whole lot less money, and when I drive it I am not thinking about, "Its not a Ferrari, or whatever". I am thinking that this is a very well developed car. That's what I think of in the Gallardo and the SL55. The 360 and 430 (except the CS) generally leave me cold after a drive........but again, that's personal opinion. They may get you going...........and that's OK.

moldowan

ingenere makes sense to me.
there are too many idiots willing to overpay of the f cars.
I want to get a 99 or '00 360 but everyone wants IMO too much
-Marc

LuvnHP

I recently had the same dilemna. I had a 2003 SL55 that was coming out of warranty and investigated the SL65. I had countless big issues with the SL, but it was an '03(first year) and would buy one again. The SL's are still some of the most beautiful vehicles on the road eventhough there are many of them and for the price difference(65) I prefer the 55. I ended up purchasing a 2007 997TT to compliment the SL55 and just traded both of them for a 2006 F430 Spider. I just traded my wife's 2007 GL450 for a BMW 335 convertible because she wanted the drop top and the GL450 was in to the dealer six times in seven months for major issues (oil consumption = 1qt per 800 miles / air suspension failure that left us stranded out of state). You will not regret the 360 purchase, but it is not an everyday driver. Pick the best condition F-car you can afford(belts done...) and bite the bullit even if it comes from a dealer. The SL55 is one of the more enjoyable cars I have owned in the last ten years and the F430 is "it". The Gallardo has heavier steering and the e-gear is not as polished as the F1 unit in the Ferrari and I did not get goose bumps when driving it, but it was a coupe. The Gallardo has more electonic luxuries, but I wasn't a big fan of the interior. My SL held its value well for several years and then the bottom fell out, so I think the 360 would depreciate less than a newer SL over the next few years. If you have not owned a newer Ferrari I think there is a great sense of occassion everytime I fire her up despite some earlier posts. I am probably Ferrari biased and don't realize it, but thought I would share my experience. I need to update my profile.