Mercedes SL 65 AMG Black Series (Stock) vs Ferrar…:





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All this chatter on M275's chk out Russians doin' it right! Stock vs Stock SL65 Blk Ser vs Ferrari 458 1/4 though the SL looses by a mere length or so at 12.0x vs 11.8x they show Next race W/same SL Black Ser vs modded ML63 w/700 hp.. the SL65 then runs an 11.7x which would've def beat the 458.. Too bad they're so gansta' & their tracks for sh_it... A bone stock reg SL65 can net 11.5x all day... A Blk Series w/proper traction should dip into high 10's...

 

@V12TT Enthusiast

I have to agree with Sean here.

How will you get anything more than 700 WHP through that tiny little stock hotside housing from the SL65, escpecially at high revs that will not happen.

Not speaking of 800RWP, which was the highest proper dynosheet, with no spikes faults etc. I have seen so far from Speedriven. This was on 65 with built headers, big turbine housing,GT30, mix of race gas at 22 PSI and with everything else done...

It will be interesting how far you can come with your billet setup and I wish you good luck, but the turbine housing, the headers and imho also the Intake-Side will be definately the choking point.

All the best with your results!

 

Nice! Keep us posted on the results!!!

 

Love seeing the progress! As with anything fun you are going to have people rain on your parade, even if it's in the name of "truth".

Porting is definitely a good thing, period. I don't care if your porting your throttle body to gain a tenth of a hp it's more than you had before and will all add up to a larger number in the end. Have you thought about clipping the turbine wheel? I haven't found a lot of info on our turbine housing, anyone know the a/r? Possibly work some magic there, some frown on clipping but bottom line the wheel will be lighter and flow a touch more.

What are you going to to about the intake? Custom? Scorpion?

 

These engines have been around for many years. This is really NOT going into unknown territory..
New2this is the guy that rebuilt his SL65 back in late 2007, over 7 years ago. His mods were: Scorpion Intake, VRP ICs, slightly bigger cams, ported heads, and intake port matched, VRP Tune, and some beefy parts in the tranny. The custom cams added about 0.025" of lift and about 30 deg of duration.

I suggest an aggressive head port job with larger valves and cams, then call Steve at RED to see if you can install some MID sleeves and go with some slightly larger forged pistons.. Now that would be a project!!

If you can increase your cubic inch somewhat that will help you flow more with larger valves, cams, and ported heads.. but even then you're still limited with the stock intake and exhaust..

 

It doesn't bother me. I have the same theory, I'll try to squeeze as much as I can get out of a car even if the cost to horsepower ratio is not justifiable. Like you said even if shaving a TB and adding 2 mm which might not even get 0.5 of a HP I may just do it for the hell of it. As for intakes I already did a pair last year which I'll post further down

I know port/polish heads may have been around on 55/63 motors but if you search on the forums you won't see anywhere for the M275 motor. From my experience on the forums I barely see that many 600/65 owners touch there car beyond ecu/tcu and improved cooling. There's a few that will do Downpipes, and Intakes and even few for the LSD mod, but after that it gets really slim finding 600/65 owners doing anything past that. Sean mention VRP doing port and polished heads years ago but I couldn't find any info on the forums.

I have def thought about increasing the cubic inch of the block, bigger valves, etc but I don't want to mess up a really expensive motor. If you look online 65 motors still can range from 9-20k even if its high mileage. If I ever do that project I may rather look into a 600 motor, and use parts like 65 cams, injectors, crankshaft, etc. and bore, sleeve, and use larger pistons the 600 motor since there's more room for error and the blocks are dirt cheap. But I'll prob do more head work next year, I'm just doing the heads in steps.
But before I even do engine work on the block side if I ever choose to do so, I'll prob do a bigger turbo kit first with new exhaust manifold. Honesty idk if a big turbo kit can be fully utilized on our ECUs and wonder if a piggyback ECU might be better, that way it all the OBD II functions still work and I won't have to guess if anything goes wrong unlike the standalone ECUs.

As for the intakes and exhaust, that was my project last winter. I was looking for a custom 3 inch exhaust system for an SL65 and I couldn't find anything. The most I found was downpipes from Kleemann, Speedriven, and Supersprint and mufflers from Meisershaft, Renntech, and there was prob a few more. So instead of just buying some down pipes from one company and mufflers from another with no mid section I had my shop do a custom 3 inch mandrel bent exhaust from the turbos all the way to the tips




The flange from the existing exhaust was hacked off and bored so it could fit the 3 inch piping. As it goes down the mid section at the end you can see the dual electric exhaust cutouts. That way instead of driving with no mufflers I could open and close the valves for how loud I wanted the car. Finally as it goes to the high flow mufflers and out the stock exhaust tips. The exhaust system have 3 addition V bands one where the downpipes meet the mid section, one where the mid section meets the cutouts, and one where the cutouts meet the lower section.

It took roughly a month to build, then when I was tuning the car again I was running into issues. Instead of gaining horsepower, I was loosing a big chuck. Average whp on a dynojet for all 65 amgs is about 565, instead I was loosing hp to a 480-515 range. It took us about 3 weeks to figure it out until Jerry from Eurocharged suggested removing the air boxes and see what happens. Sure enough the stock intakes was messing with the ECU and we decided to toss the intakes and make some short rams.










As you can see the intakes on the M275 are crap, the design is terrible, all that air goes through so many sharp angles and squeezes into a pipe that's about 2 1/4 inch. That's prob why the SL65 Black Series and the new 65s with the revised M278 block have a different intake designs, cause the block is pretty much the same.

The short rams freed up the air in the car since it 3 inch piping all the way into the inlet. After that I was hitting consistent 630-640 rwhp with the dyno parameters as 565 whp run which almost everyone will agree that 565 on a dynojet for a 65 AMG is correct.




But after the intakes and the exhaust I had issue with putting power to the ground since I kept spinning to 3rd gear, thus I had to install an LSD from Quaife

These short ram intakes are not gonna stay, my originally plan was to get the BS body kit, do a CAI up front then do engine work, but my tuner and I thought maybe it was better do do the black series body kit after the engine work was done, that way he didn't have to worry about scratching up my new paint on the body kit.

The inlet on the turbo prob will be hacked off and fitted with a larger inlet seeing that the size of the turbo inlet is only 2 1/4 inch, but I would need to consult Jerry at Eurocharged first since he's the only person that I am aware of that actually hacked the inlet off for a larger one on a billet turbo build.

But that's all I'm tackling this year, I'll look into a bigger turbo kit and more head work next winter, but I want to put another 20kish miles on it this year and enjoy the car for the 6-9 months weather will permit before it has to sit again.

Next week my intercooler cores come in from Bell and the tuner will start fabing those up and the parts from Mercedes should come around Dec. 8th based off what they told me. I'll post more once the final stuff arrives.

 

Bro... the easiest most cost effective way to make massive hp/tq on turbo apps is MUCH Bigger turbos & real manifolds that can actually breathe.. Ever seen a stock 65/600 Exhaust Manifold? the Inner DIA is slightly larger than your ring finger.. The work being done above is nothing new & sadly if Brabus & their endless funds/tech can't eclipse....

Now w/all the extra ultra professional work listed here from Brabus, they made a smoking 730 BHP no way on Gods green earth is V12TTenthusiasts mod list going to even see an HONEST 700 whp.. Maybe on Q16 w/his mod plan but that's it.. These are NOT giant CID high revving engines, they don't respond to these mods the same way...

Speedriven ran race gas at 23-24 psi? (I could be off by a psi) on much much larger manifolds/turbs 830-850 whp was end result.. he's currently looking to the bigger GT35's to hit the magic 1000 whp...

End of point... you want 800+ whp on a V12tt add real shorty style mani's & some gt30-35 turbs NOT trying to put anyone down, just trying to help him really reach his goal vs being nickle & dimed to death for maybe @ best 700 whp on Q16 w/solid tune.

 

I edited my previous post, not sure if you noticed so I'm reposting this here..

New2this is the guy that rebuilt his SL65 back in late 2007, over 7 years ago. If you do a search on him you can find more info on his build.

His mods were: Scorpion Intake, VRP ICs, slightly bigger cams, ported heads, intake port matched, VRP Tune, and some beefy parts in the tranny. The custom cams added about 0.025" of lift and about 30 deg of duration.

 

I know your trying to help out, but I want to be able to drive the car daily that's why I didn't opt for big turbos right away. I rather squeeze out more horsepower and have the car able to still function as a daily driver. Once I my car hit 80-90k on the car I'll get another performance car and have my car hacked away as long as it needs to. I'm at 60ish now so prob by next winter I'll do big turbos.

 

That's prob why I couldn't find this info this is back in 2007 lol. I wonder where he got the cams, MKB apparently did a cam upgrade on an SL65 Black Series and I contacted there US vendor in CA but I only got one email and that's about it, hmmm maybe its schrick race cams.

But thanks for the info now I can look deeper into this.

 

Hmmm you do realize a REAL sl65 BLACK SERIES w/upgraded EVERYTHING vs you reg 65, MB quotes 670 BHP it actually makes an HONEST 630 WHP after tune is what I meant... your mod list at the time you posted that Dyno w/those short hot air intakes wuld net nothing close to an honest 630 whp.. Not trying to put you down but you've fallen victim to a SUPER HAPPY dyno.. It happens to the best of us but the OG's here know better.Those mods from those pix would net 550-565 tops in real wold.. Sorry I don't sugar coat sh_it it is what it is..
Pix are worth 1000 words, better turbos making 70+ more hp over regular 65, bigger INJ, Higher RPM's Real CAI, HELL better everything look at the space between engine & radiator JUST TO HELP COOLING.. etc etc etc
Now note Bone stock rwhp on blk Series is 565, 630whp after tune is what I meant.. your mod list at that time no way no how = tuned Black rwhp period..

 

Here is the youtube video of his initial start up..

 

Bro it's np I think we just disagree that's all but I value your input.


But I was looking at the SL65 Black Series, stock puts down 563-580 whp, just a Renntech tune makes it 620-630 whp. Renntech claims they can boost the SL65 Black series to 810 bhp with additional mods. I found this info online with the before and after dynos with a stock vs tune comparison of someone with a 65 BS

The dyno is off this link:

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/gtb...-series-6.html







But a 670 HP SL65 BS puts down 580 not 630, 630 is after a tune, either way in the end no matter what the dyno numbers are, all that really matters is what it does on the track

 

So go run a mid to low 10 sec 1/4 @ 136-140 mph w/OUT NITROUS lol

My point is your reg tuned lightly modded @ that time, sl65 isn't equaling a tuned SL65 blk series period.. Also everyone knows Henessys dynos are set to happyville too.. we have a few members who've posted pre/post tuned SL blk series.. Stk is generally 565 whp & tune only 630's

 

Idk why you don't think its possible I mean you posted the same findings 2 years ago on your build, with pretty much same setup, stock turbos, intakes, downpipes, HE, only thing my last dyno run doesn't have that yours does is a trunk tank and top mounts.

I mean you even did it on the same dyno when you ran 450 whp stock, so why is it hard to believe that with my slightly larger tubros with further modification, slightly larger engine, and head work wont surpass those numbers?

 

Guys, please stay realistic. You cant get 700whp out of stock 600-65 Turbos. Also on 65 BS you cant get to 700whp without laying your hands on the Turbos.Good luck! sent from Handy

 

Nice Detective work Bogart, but that was a few yrs back.. I later found out that Dyno I was using was manipulated to appease the masses, w/manipulated DTL%

My SL had every possible mod far beyond your progress when you thought you made 634 whp.. I took it to another (2) dynos with & w/out Q16 best I did w/91 was an honest 600 odd whp, best w/q16 640-645.. To be truthful, loading your rear 5 gall reservoir w/ice on 50-60 deg ambient day will add another 35+ whp Great temp power for a glory run.

When equally modded the 600/65 will net nearly same rwhp, but the 65 will avg 40-50 morre rwtq.

 

This BS stuff is irrelevant.
Were talking about a car with no ABC, ALOT more room for cooling, relocated ABS unit/SBC for some of us where the starter battery is, massaged turbos..........THAT STILL CANT HOLD POWER PAST 5, 500rpm.

If we want to start talking about the 600/65 platform some of us drive on a regular basis we can make some progress.
In my opinion this seems to be more of a long running project and this series will net a large gain through out the rpm range. Breaking 700whp is an optomistic goal where alot of factors will com into play. We all know the bottle necks in our system and strategically eleminating these are a must. Is there any way to port the stock exhaust manifold? I know it will split into 3 pieces so you could access most of the center section. Possibly a small touch to help flow...

 

Wrong, they bumped rev limiter up to 5700 rpm's on the Black. Actually has bigger turbs etc etc.... NO the stk manifolds are sand cast 1 piece attchd to actual turbs.. they'll split/crumble to bits if porting attempted, the overall size of stk mani's is beyond pathetic to move enough airflow for true700-800 whp.. A tuner in Dubai attempted cutting off small oem turbs, replacing w/larger turbs, reattaching them to stk manifolds, & the new massive airflow backfired into the manifolds/engine creating near catastrophic failure..

Gotta laugh at this thread... V12ttenthusiasts acts like he's reinventing the wheel here.. The CAI he had made is worse than oem in many ways, he utilized SS tubing @ least 3/4 of it is showing in route to stk turb inlets,that just retains/creates higher IAT's those tubes sit inches from the broiling heads & manifolds, then the airfilters are exposed.. They will lose mass hp/tq once hood is shut... & his thoughts on why oem boxes are woefully inadequate have been painfully detailed by dozens of us dozens of times over the past 5-6 yrs... etc Sorry to be curt here, but V12ttEnthusiats, theories/thoughts on FINALLY moving these m275's into 800+whp range while retaining stock turbs/mani's etc is beyond remedial..

 

To quote Marcin from Speedriven here and these are also my findings : SL600 WITH Billets are good for low 600whp. 65 WITH Billets are good for high 600whp.You will not get more through the hotside turbine Housing. BS Turbos you will get some little more through, but not tons of HP. With changed internals my estimate is approx.50 HP on top of the 65 numbers. For everything more you have to take a deep look in your wallet... I have Really good offer for my car, which would be some VERY Interesting news in the M275 World. But this will be not a cheap package and have not made my mind up if it is worth to put that much money into a 10year old car. We will wait and see...;-) , sent from Handy

 

Marcin, & I have discussed the billet upgrades at nauseam, the 600's will see 50-60 hp tops & since the 65's turbs are already better to begin w/Billet gains on 65's are 40-45 whp @ best... these meager gains are not cost effective & why the billets have drastically fallen out of favor.. Removal/Install fees coupled to actual cost of reworked billets & you see my points.

Sorry to disagree w/ya but Zax63 had his S65 sent to Speedriven, it got every mod under the sun that Speedriven offers including a REAL CAI etc etc.. If his 65 just had ECU/TCU & Billets I'd bet 580-590 whp tops.. UNLESS Marcin meant Billets in ADDITION to his full Speedriven packages..

 

He just said 679.64/879 lbs ft both at the wheel....

I messaged him a few weeks if he had more dynos of his build which consist of downpipes/intakes/ecu/tcu/HE/transmission and no trunk tank

 

You need a break son, your lack of knowledge on subjects at hand are
Straight from his build thread..
Big coolers w/extra tuning for lower IAT's are said to be worth 35-40 whp alone... Every post you add further proves my points on what these m275's are capable of.. Trunk tank just furthers ability to keep IAT's in chk.. You can ONLY gain temporary hp w/reservoir by packing w/ice to trick ECU into thinking Ambient air temps are in low 40 deg F zone for a single pass on dyno or 1/4 mile..

 

Yeah coolers, intake, billet turbos, ecu/tcu, exhaust in his own thread he stated no trunk tank. Also whats your point I stated in my thread that my shop fabbing up custom top mount intercoolers with the help of World Motorsports that will provide the specs for the top mount intercoolers they did on there CL65 as well as I stated front mount CAI once engine is back and car goes to body shop for kit so I can do a proper CAI.

That's pretty much gonna be the same build as Zax's except with head work. But he clearly posted 680-690 whp on his build

 

Of course all my given rwp numbers were with ALL Supporting mods. Changing turbos without supporting mods make no real sense to me...