AMG LSD vs Kleemann LSD
12-21-2004, 01:06 AM
#1
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AMG LSD vs Kleemann LSD
I am seriously looking to purchase a LSD next month. AMG just recently came with a LSD with a 30% lockup vs Kleemann's 60% lockup. AMG is about $4,600 whereas Kleemann is about $2,300. Here is a excerpt of an email explaining the price difference and lockup %:
"AMG LSD. It is the same AMG LSD that only Germans can get (used to be, but not anymore!!). It is a system where AMG have spent A LOT of time on researching and developing. The LSD is built to AMGs specifications from start to finish and works perfectly with the existing ECUs. It is NOT a third party research or an off-the-shelf LSD from a third party and put AMG labels on it. The installation is straight forward and is identical to the replacement of an existing differential. There are no electrical modifications – only mechanical. As this is a direct swap to your existing differential, I think any reputable mechanic can do the install. And if you have a good relationship with your dealership, I will not be surprised if they can do it for you too.
Before you ask, the most asked question from my customers: what is the difference between AMG LSD and Kleemann LSD?
Here is the answer: Yes, Kleemann offers LSD for Mercedes also, however, their LSD system has never been tested (or acknowledged) by MB. No matter how reliable Kleemann products are, I think you will have to agree with me that nobody in the world can do more R&D than AMG. They build a product bearing an AMG name on it and if there is anything wrong with the product, they will be in big trouble. I think as an end user, people will be more comfortable to get a genuine AMG product than any other aftermarket tuners product (given they cost pretty much the same price). Kleemann LSD is listed for USD2,300, but it is kind of misleading, they send you the gears, you have to open up your stock differential and change it yourself. And the AMG LSD is a complete unit, it is a simple plug and play install.
Kleemann advertised their LSD has a 60% lock percentage, which will work very well under normal circumstances, but who knows how long their LSDs are going to last after an extensive period of "abuse" by the AMG drivers. I don't think people with LSD installed on their cars will drive it any way conservatively. The AMG LSD has a 30% lock percentage (15% at low speed), which is quite subtle, but I guess it will last much longer (and safer). I just cannot imagine how the car is going to drive with a 60% lock."
So what do you guys think is the best direction to take? Appreciate all feedbacks.
"AMG LSD. It is the same AMG LSD that only Germans can get (used to be, but not anymore!!). It is a system where AMG have spent A LOT of time on researching and developing. The LSD is built to AMGs specifications from start to finish and works perfectly with the existing ECUs. It is NOT a third party research or an off-the-shelf LSD from a third party and put AMG labels on it. The installation is straight forward and is identical to the replacement of an existing differential. There are no electrical modifications – only mechanical. As this is a direct swap to your existing differential, I think any reputable mechanic can do the install. And if you have a good relationship with your dealership, I will not be surprised if they can do it for you too.
Before you ask, the most asked question from my customers: what is the difference between AMG LSD and Kleemann LSD?
Here is the answer: Yes, Kleemann offers LSD for Mercedes also, however, their LSD system has never been tested (or acknowledged) by MB. No matter how reliable Kleemann products are, I think you will have to agree with me that nobody in the world can do more R&D than AMG. They build a product bearing an AMG name on it and if there is anything wrong with the product, they will be in big trouble. I think as an end user, people will be more comfortable to get a genuine AMG product than any other aftermarket tuners product (given they cost pretty much the same price). Kleemann LSD is listed for USD2,300, but it is kind of misleading, they send you the gears, you have to open up your stock differential and change it yourself. And the AMG LSD is a complete unit, it is a simple plug and play install.
Kleemann advertised their LSD has a 60% lock percentage, which will work very well under normal circumstances, but who knows how long their LSDs are going to last after an extensive period of "abuse" by the AMG drivers. I don't think people with LSD installed on their cars will drive it any way conservatively. The AMG LSD has a 30% lock percentage (15% at low speed), which is quite subtle, but I guess it will last much longer (and safer). I just cannot imagine how the car is going to drive with a 60% lock."
So what do you guys think is the best direction to take? Appreciate all feedbacks.
Last edited by adx; 12-21-2004 at 02:04 PM.
12-21-2004, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by adx
I am seriously looking to purchase a LSD next month. AMG just recently came with a LSD with a 30% lockup vs Kleemann's 60% lockup. AMG is about $4,600 whereas Kleemann is about $2,300. Here is a excerpt of an email explaining the price difference and lockup %:
"AMG LSD. It is the same AMG LSD that only Germans can get (used to be, but not anymore!!). It is a system where AMG have spent A LOT of time on researching and developing. The LSD is built to AMGs specifications from start to finish and works perfectly with the existing ECUs. It is NOT a third party research or an off-the-shelf LSD from a third party and put AMG labels on it. The installation is straight forward and is identical to the replacement of an existing differential. There are no electrical modifications – only mechanical. The price is USD4,595+shipping. As this is a direct swap to your existing differential, I think any reputable mechanic can do the install. And if you have a good relationship with your dealership, I will not be surprised if they can do it for you too.
Before you ask, the most asked question from my customers: what is the difference between AMG LSD and Kleemann LSD?
Here is the answer: Yes, Kleemann offers LSD for Mercedes also, however, their LSD system has never been tested (or acknowledged) by MB. No matter how reliable Kleemann products are, I think you will have to agree with me that nobody in the world can do more R&D than AMG. They build a product bearing an AMG name on it and if there is anything wrong with the product, they will be in big trouble. I think as an end user, people will be more comfortable to get a genuine AMG product than any other aftermarket tuners product (given they cost pretty much the same price). Kleemann LSD is listed for USD2,300, but it is kind of misleading, they send you the gears, you have to open up your stock differential and change it yourself. The final cost with labor will cost much more than USD2,300. It will cost USD4,500 if you want a complete unit like the AMG. And the AMG LSD is a complete unit, it is a simple plug and play install.
Kleemann advertised their LSD has a 60% lock percentage, which will work very well under normal circumstances, but who knows how long their LSDs are going to last after an extensive period of "abuse" by the AMG drivers. I don't think people with LSD installed on their cars will drive it any way conservatively. The AMG LSD has a 30% lock percentage (15% at low speed), which is quite subtle, but I guess it will last much longer (and safer). I just cannot imagine how the car is going to drive with a 60% lock."
So what do you guys think is the best direction to take? Appreciate all feedbacks.
"AMG LSD. It is the same AMG LSD that only Germans can get (used to be, but not anymore!!). It is a system where AMG have spent A LOT of time on researching and developing. The LSD is built to AMGs specifications from start to finish and works perfectly with the existing ECUs. It is NOT a third party research or an off-the-shelf LSD from a third party and put AMG labels on it. The installation is straight forward and is identical to the replacement of an existing differential. There are no electrical modifications – only mechanical. The price is USD4,595+shipping. As this is a direct swap to your existing differential, I think any reputable mechanic can do the install. And if you have a good relationship with your dealership, I will not be surprised if they can do it for you too.
Before you ask, the most asked question from my customers: what is the difference between AMG LSD and Kleemann LSD?
Here is the answer: Yes, Kleemann offers LSD for Mercedes also, however, their LSD system has never been tested (or acknowledged) by MB. No matter how reliable Kleemann products are, I think you will have to agree with me that nobody in the world can do more R&D than AMG. They build a product bearing an AMG name on it and if there is anything wrong with the product, they will be in big trouble. I think as an end user, people will be more comfortable to get a genuine AMG product than any other aftermarket tuners product (given they cost pretty much the same price). Kleemann LSD is listed for USD2,300, but it is kind of misleading, they send you the gears, you have to open up your stock differential and change it yourself. The final cost with labor will cost much more than USD2,300. It will cost USD4,500 if you want a complete unit like the AMG. And the AMG LSD is a complete unit, it is a simple plug and play install.
Kleemann advertised their LSD has a 60% lock percentage, which will work very well under normal circumstances, but who knows how long their LSDs are going to last after an extensive period of "abuse" by the AMG drivers. I don't think people with LSD installed on their cars will drive it any way conservatively. The AMG LSD has a 30% lock percentage (15% at low speed), which is quite subtle, but I guess it will last much longer (and safer). I just cannot imagine how the car is going to drive with a 60% lock."
So what do you guys think is the best direction to take? Appreciate all feedbacks.
12-21-2004, 09:15 AM
#5
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04E55AMG, 05Dodge RAM 1500 Quad Cab, 02Montero Limited
Kleemann's price they gave me was $2300 plus installation (about 5 hours), which translated close to $3K.
OEM AMG LSD system has been offered to owners ONLY in Germany once taking delivery. They would have to take the car directly to AMG for this install. MB did not want this as a option since they considered it would make the car to performance focused which is steering away from its target market. Maybe for the public who buys a MB or E Class, but AMG owners are performance "nuts". I guess MB has the final say over AMG.
The OEM AMG LSD system is available by contacting Harris a board sponsor. He has just created a relationship with his contacts in Germany. The supply is very limited and last time I spoke to him, if you order now (pay up front) you are looking at a Spring delivery.
We all agree that a LSD system is needed feature for these cars, hence why AMG created it.
My understanding is that cars who have this installed in Germany can floor the beast with ESP off all day and it will move in the forward direction quickly. Having ESP on is not needed
Happy Holidays
OEM AMG LSD system has been offered to owners ONLY in Germany once taking delivery. They would have to take the car directly to AMG for this install. MB did not want this as a option since they considered it would make the car to performance focused which is steering away from its target market. Maybe for the public who buys a MB or E Class, but AMG owners are performance "nuts". I guess MB has the final say over AMG.
The OEM AMG LSD system is available by contacting Harris a board sponsor. He has just created a relationship with his contacts in Germany. The supply is very limited and last time I spoke to him, if you order now (pay up front) you are looking at a Spring delivery.
We all agree that a LSD system is needed feature for these cars, hence why AMG created it.
My understanding is that cars who have this installed in Germany can floor the beast with ESP off all day and it will move in the forward direction quickly. Having ESP on is not needed
Happy Holidays
12-21-2004, 09:15 AM
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2003 E55 & 2014 GL550
Seems like LSD is the talk of the town....for people unfamiliar with it...here ya go
In a standard differential, if one wheel loses traction, it will get all
the power and will spin, while the wheel with traction gets nothing. The
idea of a limited-slip differential is to prevent all power from being
applied to only one driving wheel when traction is lost. There are numerous
types of limited-slip, positraction, locker,
etc. units.
The percentage number denotes the percentage of torque applied to the
slower turning wheel from
the faster turning wheel. In a straight line, both drive wheels turn at the
same speed, so no limited slip action is occurring. In a turn, or when one
tire is spinning more than the other (such as on snow or ice), with a
limited slip differential, 25, 40, or 75 percent of the torque applied to
the faster wheel is applied to the slower wheel,
effectively 'limiting slip'. A higher lockup percentage will cause
increased rear tire wear on the inside tire during cornering -- the tire
itself will have to slip slightly to counteract the limited slip's desire
to have both tires turning at the same speed. It will also increase
oversteer in wet or slippery conditions, but it will also increase
understeer in tight corners under dry conditions. This is simply due to the
fact that with a limited slip, the drive wheels tend to want to turn at the
same speed, making the car tend to want to go in a straight line. When it
is slippery, however, both drive tires will tend to lose traction at the
same time, increasing oversteer. The
advantages are less inside wheelspin when accelerating out of a tight
corner. This also translates into more horsepower to the pavement and
faster times -- provided that the suspension is tuned for the
limited slip. The ability to accelerate out of corners without excess wheel
spin can be a great advantage.
On a more technical note:
The limited slip percentage (S) is also called the locking factor. It
describes the maximum applied torque
difference between rear wheels compared with total applied torque.
Passenger car LSDs are usually in the
25-40% locking factor range. Most BMW LSDs are 25%.
In a standard differential, if one wheel loses traction, it will get all
the power and will spin, while the wheel with traction gets nothing. The
idea of a limited-slip differential is to prevent all power from being
applied to only one driving wheel when traction is lost. There are numerous
types of limited-slip, positraction, locker,
etc. units.
The percentage number denotes the percentage of torque applied to the
slower turning wheel from
the faster turning wheel. In a straight line, both drive wheels turn at the
same speed, so no limited slip action is occurring. In a turn, or when one
tire is spinning more than the other (such as on snow or ice), with a
limited slip differential, 25, 40, or 75 percent of the torque applied to
the faster wheel is applied to the slower wheel,
effectively 'limiting slip'. A higher lockup percentage will cause
increased rear tire wear on the inside tire during cornering -- the tire
itself will have to slip slightly to counteract the limited slip's desire
to have both tires turning at the same speed. It will also increase
oversteer in wet or slippery conditions, but it will also increase
understeer in tight corners under dry conditions. This is simply due to the
fact that with a limited slip, the drive wheels tend to want to turn at the
same speed, making the car tend to want to go in a straight line. When it
is slippery, however, both drive tires will tend to lose traction at the
same time, increasing oversteer. The
advantages are less inside wheelspin when accelerating out of a tight
corner. This also translates into more horsepower to the pavement and
faster times -- provided that the suspension is tuned for the
limited slip. The ability to accelerate out of corners without excess wheel
spin can be a great advantage.
On a more technical note:
The limited slip percentage (S) is also called the locking factor. It
describes the maximum applied torque
difference between rear wheels compared with total applied torque.
Passenger car LSDs are usually in the
25-40% locking factor range. Most BMW LSDs are 25%.
12-21-2004, 05:25 PM
#7
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Originally Posted by Jakpro1
The percentage number denotes the percentage of torque applied to the slower turning wheel from the faster turning wheel. In a straight line, both drive wheels turn at the same speed, so no limited slip action is occurring. In a turn, or when one tire is spinning more than the other (such as on snow or ice), with a limited slip differential, 25, 40, or 75 percent of the torque applied to the faster wheel is applied to the slower wheel, effectively 'limiting slip'. A higher lockup percentage will cause
increased rear tire wear on the inside tire during cornering -- the tire
itself will have to slip slightly to counteract the limited slip's desire
to have both tires turning at the same speed. It will also increase
oversteer in wet or slippery conditions, but it will also increase
understeer in tight corners under dry conditions. This is simply due to the
fact that with a limited slip, the drive wheels tend to want to turn at the
same speed, making the car tend to want to go in a straight line. When it
is slippery, however, both drive tires will tend to lose traction at the
same time, increasing oversteer. The advantages are less inside wheelspin when accelerating out of a tight corner. This also translates into more horsepower to the pavement and faster times -- provided that the suspension is tuned for the limited slip. The ability to accelerate out of corners without excess wheel spin can be a great advantage.
increased rear tire wear on the inside tire during cornering -- the tire
itself will have to slip slightly to counteract the limited slip's desire
to have both tires turning at the same speed. It will also increase
oversteer in wet or slippery conditions, but it will also increase
understeer in tight corners under dry conditions. This is simply due to the
fact that with a limited slip, the drive wheels tend to want to turn at the
same speed, making the car tend to want to go in a straight line. When it
is slippery, however, both drive tires will tend to lose traction at the
same time, increasing oversteer. The advantages are less inside wheelspin when accelerating out of a tight corner. This also translates into more horsepower to the pavement and faster times -- provided that the suspension is tuned for the limited slip. The ability to accelerate out of corners without excess wheel spin can be a great advantage.
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12-21-2004, 11:09 PM
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2005 E55
No LSD Drag tire instead.
I want to hear it. Drag tire or LSD? I have ran dra tires on the street now for 17,000 on the E55 I will not have anyother rear tire but for the BFG G-Force T/A Drag radials 275/35/18
12-21-2004, 11:14 PM
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Originally Posted by draggingcents2
I want to hear it. Drag tire or LSD? I have ran dra tires on the street now for 17,000 on the E55 I will not have anyother rear tire but for the BFG G-Force T/A Drag radials 275/35/18
12-21-2004, 11:29 PM
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2005 E55
I do not drive E55 in rain. I have a GS400 with 100,000 miles on it for the Rain. You can go form 80- 160 no problem but I think that 100mph plus for long stints is not a good thing. All I run the car is light to light. Top end is rare but if happens I have no problem running these tire 155+. I always keep them new so I do not know how long they last. Lets guess 2000 miles 3000 miles. I change when they need it. But the balder they get the better they hook. I get for $180 each so I change out alot.
12-22-2004, 11:12 AM
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2003 E55 & 2014 GL550
Hey Draggin...So like "night and day" from the Conti POS's we have....as far as hook up.
You ever have trouble with schmoos at the tire place scratching your rims....took my old 500 to local Big O and the friggin guy put some scratches on rims taking them off...did not ever notice til days later.
You seem to have A LOT of experience with tire installs (every 2 to 3 K)
Last brain pick....do you launch like the other guys Load up to bout 1500RPM...then let off the brake go up to half throttle to roll, then punch.
Thanks Drag
You ever have trouble with schmoos at the tire place scratching your rims....took my old 500 to local Big O and the friggin guy put some scratches on rims taking them off...did not ever notice til days later.
You seem to have A LOT of experience with tire installs (every 2 to 3 K)
Last brain pick....do you launch like the other guys Load up to bout 1500RPM...then let off the brake go up to half throttle to roll, then punch.
Thanks Drag
12-22-2004, 11:40 AM
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2005 E55
Is this a joke? Do you know Ryan the Jack Assss? If not the Big O on Imperial Hwy in Yorba Linda, CA Ryan is the owner and yes he will drop, scratch, and f-up all your rims and then tel you he is the man. I stoped him from working on my car in the middle of an install. I take it to the Hawain boys at Philips tire now. They are on Main in Santa Ana, Ca Tony is my Guy. His dad is a vip at BFG. With the drag tires I load up till 1000 rpms then flat foot it on the green. This is with traction control off. I wil try 1500rpm today but I think they will spin then.
Last edited by draggingcents2; 12-22-2004 at 11:45 AM.
12-22-2004, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Jakpro1
Hey Draggin...So like "night and day" from the Conti POS's we have....as far as hook up.
You ever have trouble with schmoos at the tire place scratching your rims....took my old 500 to local Big O and the friggin guy put some scratches on rims taking them off...did not ever notice til days later.
You seem to have A LOT of experience with tire installs (every 2 to 3 K)
Last brain pick....do you launch like the other guys Load up to bout 1500RPM...then let off the brake go up to half throttle to roll, then punch.
Thanks Drag
You ever have trouble with schmoos at the tire place scratching your rims....took my old 500 to local Big O and the friggin guy put some scratches on rims taking them off...did not ever notice til days later.
You seem to have A LOT of experience with tire installs (every 2 to 3 K)
Last brain pick....do you launch like the other guys Load up to bout 1500RPM...then let off the brake go up to half throttle to roll, then punch.
Thanks Drag
12-22-2004, 03:17 PM
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2003 E55 & 2014 GL550
Is this a joke? Do you know Ryan the Jack Assss?
Nah...no joke....just bad mistake with first Benz. Sure learned my friggin lesson.
12-23-2004, 09:52 PM
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'22 Alpina B7,'21 G63 Renntech obviously (wife), Wrangler(kids)
Just got Kleemann installed and I love it!
On PS2's had serious traction problems,now with narrower(18/265vs 19/275) winter tires the take off is much easier.(very helpful when merging into traffic)
On PS2's had serious traction problems,now with narrower(18/265vs 19/275) winter tires the take off is much easier.(very helpful when merging into traffic)
12-24-2004, 01:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Jakpro1
Nah...no joke....just bad mistake with first Benz. Sure learned my friggin lesson.
I learned the hard way also and had to buy a new car. It thought is was me. But I guess you have to watch these guys. They are tire changers for a reason. If you know what I mean.
Just to clear things up. The E55 can smoke any tire for a long ways, even the drag tires.
12-24-2004, 10:42 AM
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03 E55 k2; Ford GT
I have both the Kleemann LSD and Drag Radials. With the LSD, wheels still spin from a stop but recover traction much faster than stock. The big difference is that car stays straight on take off. With Stock my E55 use to significantly pull to the left to the point of having to take my foot off the gas. Starting from 20mph there is very limited wheel spin.
12-24-2004, 10:59 AM
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2005 E55
Saber,
YOu have mods yes? I may get LSD or new car? I think I finally found my Lambo. Will know in a week or so. Price maybe $129,000 and only 2800 miles with e-gear and it is yellow.
YOu have mods yes? I may get LSD or new car? I think I finally found my Lambo. Will know in a week or so. Price maybe $129,000 and only 2800 miles with e-gear and it is yellow.
12-25-2004, 10:53 PM
#21
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Originally Posted by draggingcents2
Saber,
YOu have mods yes? I may get LSD or new car? I think I finally found my Lambo. Will know in a week or so. Price maybe $129,000 and only 2800 miles with e-gear and it is yellow.
YOu have mods yes? I may get LSD or new car? I think I finally found my Lambo. Will know in a week or so. Price maybe $129,000 and only 2800 miles with e-gear and it is yellow.
12-25-2004, 11:14 PM
#22
thats disappointing to hear that the LSD still doesn't keep the tires from still spinning. At least you come out straight. hell I guess that is the downside of 500+ tq.
I was able to smoke the BFGs for about 20 feet and the continential POS forever.
When I changed my BFGs at 11K miles I noticed they wore very badly on the insides. Both tires had begun to peel apart on the side walls. Could have been from a few 15 sec burnouts in the waterbox but nevertheless I am lucky they didn't blow out on the highway. I only got the car up to 120mph a few times and only did 2 ETs.
If I get the LSD unit I will also opt for the 282 gears -- all in about $4600.
I was able to smoke the BFGs for about 20 feet and the continential POS forever.
When I changed my BFGs at 11K miles I noticed they wore very badly on the insides. Both tires had begun to peel apart on the side walls. Could have been from a few 15 sec burnouts in the waterbox but nevertheless I am lucky they didn't blow out on the highway. I only got the car up to 120mph a few times and only did 2 ETs.
If I get the LSD unit I will also opt for the 282 gears -- all in about $4600.
12-26-2004, 08:36 AM
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2002 MB E55 AMG
Won't the combination of LSD and drag radials (both limiting wheelspin) transfer a lot more force to transmission and drivegear components, increasing the likelihood of failure?
IE, if the wheels can't scrub off force by spinning, isn't there by definition more force exerted on the drivetrain?
TJC
IE, if the wheels can't scrub off force by spinning, isn't there by definition more force exerted on the drivetrain?
TJC
