*** vrus Stage 2 Complete ***
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04E55AMG, 05Dodge RAM 1500 Quad Cab, 02Montero Limited
Originally Posted by Grumpy666
The answer to this question should be no. The second sensor it there to measure the efficiency of the catalytic reaction. The PCM expects it to see the perfect A/F ratio coming out of the cat. The first sensors sees the fast toggling of rich-to-lean in the A/F ratio, which is used to support the oxygen storage function of the converter. The PCM expects this sensor to react to this toggling accordingly. Since the second sensor sees the exhaust after the chemical reaction, it reacts more smoothly without the rapid rich-to-lean cycle. If the PCM sees the second sensor reacting like the first, it assumes the converter is failing and sets the check-engine light.
Or have your ECU re-programmed so it will not trigger a check engine light when the above scenario happens, or just move it behind the secondary cats.
I had my check engine light appear after the removal of my cats 5 months ago. Instead of having the O2 sensors moved I had the ECU changed. Never have to worry about that again.
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Originally Posted by 04E55 AMG
Or have your ECU re-programmed so it will not trigger a check engine light when the above scenario happens, or just move it behind the secondary cats.
I had my check engine light appear after the removal of my cats 5 months ago. Instead of having the O2 sensors moved I had the ECU changed. Never have to worry about that again.
I had my check engine light appear after the removal of my cats 5 months ago. Instead of having the O2 sensors moved I had the ECU changed. Never have to worry about that again.
I guess I'll have to remove the secondaries for now.
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2003 E55 AMG
Originally Posted by Marcus Frost
Vrus,
Great write up my friend. I'm doing an exhaust setup that I think should really be pretty wicked, but it's basically a modified stock system, not a new bolt on unit. With it, I think even you would gain quite a bit more hp.
I'll save it for now, going tomorrow to put her up and take some final measurements, then later in the week or early next week we'll get to work on it. I think it's going to be wicked and sound sick as well.
-m
Great write up my friend. I'm doing an exhaust setup that I think should really be pretty wicked, but it's basically a modified stock system, not a new bolt on unit. With it, I think even you would gain quite a bit more hp.
I'll save it for now, going tomorrow to put her up and take some final measurements, then later in the week or early next week we'll get to work on it. I think it's going to be wicked and sound sick as well.
-m
I'll give you a hint on what I am doing...
It involves a pair of these:
and a set of these:
oh, and one of these:
Can't wait to see what you came up with..
I'm building it to support 700hp+... 3" stainless. Will keep the rear section stock for now but everything forward will hopefully be all done.. otherwise I'll hack up the stock exhaust to do testing and then have the final constructed once all measurements are 100%.
Last edited by vrus; 08-26-2005 at 11:20 AM.
#54
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What happened with the dyno? Are you doing a cut out exhaust? The ones where you flip the switch and a valve opens and makes it a straight pipe (no mufflers)? This has been done before by someone on this forum.
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2003 E55 AMG
Originally Posted by blackbenzz
What happened with the dyno? Are you doing a cut out exhaust? The ones where you flip the switch and a valve opens and makes it a straight pipe (no mufflers)? This has been done before by someone on this forum.
Anyways, I gotta call them today and tear them a new one and see if I can get in later this afternoon.
Was thinking about cutouts but they are pointless for me now.. There would be 0% backpressure in the open position with what I plan on doing with the exhaust so it wouldnt work out...
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Update... Hitting the dyno in 1hr...
Will post updates when I get home tonight along with some datalogs taken on the dyno.
This should give a good indication of IAT impact with the cooling system upgrade.
Hopefully there will be some good improvements at this stage of tune.
Stay tuned...
Will post updates when I get home tonight along with some datalogs taken on the dyno.
This should give a good indication of IAT impact with the cooling system upgrade.
Hopefully there will be some good improvements at this stage of tune.
Stay tuned...
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2003 E55 AMG
Monolog:
Back from the dyno.. Let me say that I am going back again in a couple of days and doing the runs later in the evening.. It was too hot in the dyno room so I know my numbers suffered but I wanted to get a feel for the changes so I went ahead with the pulls anyway.. It was 37.5degress celcius (99.5F) when I did my pulls. I did a total of 5 pulls.. 4 of them in 4th gear. 1 in 3rd gear. The car was running over 100Celcuis for engine coolant temp. I know it has more in it with some cool air.
Results:
Best 4th gear pull (1st pull I did): 442rwhp @5400RPM 497rwtq @2700RPM
I didnt bother posting the 3rd gear pull since the ratio isnt correct.. I will just keep running in 4th gear until it hits fuel cut to see what it does. I will have to guestimate the peak power since I only get to 5,400RPM at fuel cut.
After the 1st pull, every pull after that netted 430 - 434rwhp.. Torque stayed exactly the same at 495 - 497. I was driving the car on the dyno for each pull so I was pretty consistent.
Also, no datalogs.. Damn autotap wouldnt work with the car in dyno mode.. it would record 3 or 4 seconds worth and then lose its connection with the car... cant figure that one out so no hard facts to give you.. I will have to datalog on the street and post some info.
My Comments:
Based on what I saw on the dyno I can say the following:
1) The cooling system upgrade works to keep the car consistent. After the first pull, once the car reached it's max operating temperature, the cooling system kept it consistently at 430rwhp for each successive pull.
2) I think that the consistency would have still been there if I had just the pump alone and not the heat exchanger.
3) I think that 90% of the power increase can be attributed to the headers. 10% because of the cooling system.. I believe that what Evosport is saying about the 30rwhp increase OVER STAGE 2 with the cooling system would be accurate. If you are pushing even more boost and different programming than stock, I think the full cooling upgrade with the heat exchanger is a MUST. I think on a stock car, you could probably get away with just the pump and see 85 - 90% of the gains. Basically, if you plan on modding your car and want more boost and more power, you should spend the money and get the full cooling upgrade. I think it will be a must to keep the car running properly.
4) Look at my new graph and compare it to the stock one.. Look at how nice the A/F is now.. pretty stable and consistent all the way to 5,500RPM.. The headers helped to lean it out on top big time and now I have a nice stable A/F curve.
5) I would speculate (which I dont do often) that if I return and do this again with some nice cool air, there is at least another 10rwhp, and 10rwtq. I was hoping to break 500rwtq but I came just shy of it... ah well.. I will further speculate that my car in its current form would have netted 455 - 460 rwhp if I could have pulled cleanly to 6,400RPM. The car feels insanely fast on the road at high RPM so I know the power doesnt drop off after 5,400RPM..
Notice how the torque curve has almost flattened itself out now.. its pretty constant from 2,400RPM - 4,500RPM and then only dropping 100ft lb to 5,500RPM. This is what I am hoping the meth/water injection will cure.. I am suspecting that I will get to KEEP that torque right to redline and possibly even raise it a bit higher.
I am going to do some exhaust mods and the oil catch can and the heat wrap of the plug wires and more heat wrap on the intake tube and do another pull...
Now for the dyno graph:
Back from the dyno.. Let me say that I am going back again in a couple of days and doing the runs later in the evening.. It was too hot in the dyno room so I know my numbers suffered but I wanted to get a feel for the changes so I went ahead with the pulls anyway.. It was 37.5degress celcius (99.5F) when I did my pulls. I did a total of 5 pulls.. 4 of them in 4th gear. 1 in 3rd gear. The car was running over 100Celcuis for engine coolant temp. I know it has more in it with some cool air.
Results:
Best 4th gear pull (1st pull I did): 442rwhp @5400RPM 497rwtq @2700RPM
I didnt bother posting the 3rd gear pull since the ratio isnt correct.. I will just keep running in 4th gear until it hits fuel cut to see what it does. I will have to guestimate the peak power since I only get to 5,400RPM at fuel cut.
After the 1st pull, every pull after that netted 430 - 434rwhp.. Torque stayed exactly the same at 495 - 497. I was driving the car on the dyno for each pull so I was pretty consistent.
Also, no datalogs.. Damn autotap wouldnt work with the car in dyno mode.. it would record 3 or 4 seconds worth and then lose its connection with the car... cant figure that one out so no hard facts to give you.. I will have to datalog on the street and post some info.
My Comments:
Based on what I saw on the dyno I can say the following:
1) The cooling system upgrade works to keep the car consistent. After the first pull, once the car reached it's max operating temperature, the cooling system kept it consistently at 430rwhp for each successive pull.
2) I think that the consistency would have still been there if I had just the pump alone and not the heat exchanger.
3) I think that 90% of the power increase can be attributed to the headers. 10% because of the cooling system.. I believe that what Evosport is saying about the 30rwhp increase OVER STAGE 2 with the cooling system would be accurate. If you are pushing even more boost and different programming than stock, I think the full cooling upgrade with the heat exchanger is a MUST. I think on a stock car, you could probably get away with just the pump and see 85 - 90% of the gains. Basically, if you plan on modding your car and want more boost and more power, you should spend the money and get the full cooling upgrade. I think it will be a must to keep the car running properly.
4) Look at my new graph and compare it to the stock one.. Look at how nice the A/F is now.. pretty stable and consistent all the way to 5,500RPM.. The headers helped to lean it out on top big time and now I have a nice stable A/F curve.
5) I would speculate (which I dont do often) that if I return and do this again with some nice cool air, there is at least another 10rwhp, and 10rwtq. I was hoping to break 500rwtq but I came just shy of it... ah well.. I will further speculate that my car in its current form would have netted 455 - 460 rwhp if I could have pulled cleanly to 6,400RPM. The car feels insanely fast on the road at high RPM so I know the power doesnt drop off after 5,400RPM..
Notice how the torque curve has almost flattened itself out now.. its pretty constant from 2,400RPM - 4,500RPM and then only dropping 100ft lb to 5,500RPM. This is what I am hoping the meth/water injection will cure.. I am suspecting that I will get to KEEP that torque right to redline and possibly even raise it a bit higher.
I am going to do some exhaust mods and the oil catch can and the heat wrap of the plug wires and more heat wrap on the intake tube and do another pull...
Now for the dyno graph:
Last edited by vrus; 08-26-2005 at 09:22 PM.
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Oh yeah... Forgot a couple of things..
Keep in mind the following:
1) These were 2 different dynos so I can't be 100% sure the gains are accurate. The pulls should really have been done on the same dyno (which I will do once he finishes setting up shop in the new location).
2) The stock dyno was done with a minimum of 10deg F lower temperature so this new dyno pull would of been alot better with some cool air.
For reference:
Baseline: 411rwhp, 476rwtq
New: 442rwhp, 497rwtq
Gains: 31rwhp, 21rwtq
I'll post another set of #'s once the original dyno I used is setup again.
Keep in mind the following:
1) These were 2 different dynos so I can't be 100% sure the gains are accurate. The pulls should really have been done on the same dyno (which I will do once he finishes setting up shop in the new location).
2) The stock dyno was done with a minimum of 10deg F lower temperature so this new dyno pull would of been alot better with some cool air.
For reference:
Baseline: 411rwhp, 476rwtq
New: 442rwhp, 497rwtq
Gains: 31rwhp, 21rwtq
I'll post another set of #'s once the original dyno I used is setup again.
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2003 E55 AMG
Originally Posted by ricky.agrawal
Whoa, that is one nice looking graph. Really high resolution too
Do you have any pictures? I love pictures!
Do you have any pictures? I love pictures!
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'03 G500, '13 G63, '17 GLS63,
What voltage does the stock O2 sensor need to see in order not to trigger a check engine light? Does anybody make an O2 sensor simulator that would work in our W211 E55 application.
#63
Originally Posted by vrus
Thanks! No pics unfortunately. But, there might be dyno video from now on..
#64
Originally Posted by medici78
What voltage does the stock O2 sensor need to see in order not to trigger a check engine light? Does anybody make an O2 sensor simulator that would work in our W211 E55 application.
http://www.o2sensorsimulator.com/
Or, if you're cheap like me (uhh, make that frugal), you can make your own with a simple voltage divider network. All it takes are two resistors - 24k ohm and 1k ohm. Hook them in series and connect the free end of the 24k ohm to the 12-volt wire in the O2 sensor connector, and the free end of the 1k ohm to the ground wire in the connector. Now connect the joined ends of the resistors to the signal wire in the connector. This will feed 0.48 volts to the computor in place of the second O2 sensor. DO NOT do this for the first sensor - you need this one for closed loop mode. Do this at your own risk.
Last edited by Grumpy666; 08-27-2005 at 07:33 PM.
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2003 E55 AMG
Originally Posted by medici78
What voltage does the stock O2 sensor need to see in order not to trigger a check engine light? Does anybody make an O2 sensor simulator that would work in our W211 E55 application.
Originally Posted by ricky.agrawal
I have this scary feeling that in the video, your car will go insane from all the power it's making and just rip apart the dyno.
Originally Posted by Grumpy666
The normal operating range for an O2 sensor is 0.45 - 0.5 volts. Higher than 0.5v indicates a rich condition and lower thab 0.45v indicates a lean condition. Most OBD II cars use the same sensor. You can get simulators from several sources, such as the one below. Google for more.
I will share whatever I find (good or bad) and hopefully we can all learn more about our cars.
#66
Originally Posted by vrus
You are a wise man.. I have yet to get anything by you. I welcome your posts and your input.
Since you opened the door for input, I'd like to offer an opinion. You said:
Originally Posted by vrus
Notice how the torque curve has almost flattened itself out now.. its pretty constant from 2,400RPM - 4,500RPM and then only dropping 100ft lb to 5,500RPM. This is what I am hoping the meth/water injection will cure.. I am suspecting that I will get to KEEP that torque right to redline and possibly even raise it a bit higher.
Actually, I'm kinda anxious to hear your results on the H2O injection. I've been considering this for my S/C truck for the past couple of years, but have yet to pull the trigger. There's just not a lot of good info avaiable to raise my comfort level. Thanks for sharing.
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2003 E55 AMG
Originally Posted by Grumpy666
Thanks . . . I appreciate the kind words. I also like and agree with your systematic approach to improving your car's performance. Do the ECU last and don't do the pulley if you can live w/o it. Did you notice a small reduction in boost when you installed the headers?
Originally Posted by Grumpy666
As nice as this would be, I don't think it's gonna happen. Instead, I think what you'll see is a small torque increase across most of the RPM band.
The difference in the bigger pulley and rempped ECU graph is that the drop-off is steeper.
Take a look at Gid_E_Up's Stage 3 Kleemann graph: https://mbworld.org/forums/w211-amg/94458-619-hp-e55-dyno-results.html
I know the car will "support" the horsepower because I've seen the graphs a few people have posted. This is what led me to conclude that the issue is heat related. If we can control the heat, we can unlock the trapped horsepower in the upper RPM range.
But, like everything I say, the only way to find out is to DO IT and put it on the rollers.
#68
Originally Posted by vrus
Take a look at Gid_E_Up's Stage 3 Kleemann graph: https://mbworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=94458
In my opinion, Kleeman's dyno plots seem to be somewhat suspect. They appear to be configured to elicit the responses seen throughout the thread. Valid comparisons to other forum members' cars would be extremely difficult based on this data. I think I'll broach HP comparisons in a new thread.
Originally Posted by vrus
If we can control the heat, we can unlock the trapped horsepower in the upper RPM range.
#69
Originally Posted by Grumpy666
In my opinion, Kleeman's dyno plots seem to be somewhat suspect. They appear to be configured to elicit the responses seen throughout the thread. Valid comparisons to other forum members' cars would be extremely difficult based on this data. I think I'll broach HP comparisons in a new thread.
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Originally Posted by Grumpy666
Interesting thread - it didn't show up in any of my searches. But this is probably not a good example to make your point, since he used the Stage 3 package, which includes cams. Without knowing the valve timings of the cams, its hard to make a meaningful comparison of the upper RPM power taper.
In my opinion, Kleeman's dyno plots seem to be somewhat suspect. They appear to be configured to elicit the responses seen throughout the thread. Valid comparisons to other forum members' cars would be extremely difficult based on this data. I think I'll broach HP comparisons in a new thread.
This is where our thoughts on the upper RPM power taper diverge. Why do you think the heat is only an issue in the upper RPM range?
In my opinion, Kleeman's dyno plots seem to be somewhat suspect. They appear to be configured to elicit the responses seen throughout the thread. Valid comparisons to other forum members' cars would be extremely difficult based on this data. I think I'll broach HP comparisons in a new thread.
This is where our thoughts on the upper RPM power taper diverge. Why do you think the heat is only an issue in the upper RPM range?
But, you are correct.. I cant be 100% because the cams are there. Unfortunately there isnt enough data in the form of dyno plots that I can use on from this board so that is all I have to go on.
I guess I'll have to just prove/disprove this theory myself with my own testing.
Don't misunderstand me.. I'm not saying there is only a heat issue in the upper RPM band, I am just saying that there is a SIGNIFICANTLY greater heat issue in the upper RPM band. The higher the RPM, the greater the heat issue. So, if I can relieve the supercharger of some of that heat it generates, I should get higher efficiency from it and therefore better power output.
#71
Originally Posted by vrus
The higher the RPM, the greater the heat issue.
A WOT blast w/data logging would be a good thing to shed some light. Especially before the precats go bye-bye. Is that where you're going to put the race cats, or are you going with a downpipe with the race cats replacing the original main cats?
Originally Posted by vrus
So, if I can relieve the supercharger of some of that heat it generates, I should get higher efficiency from it and therefore better power output.
With your mods, you would probably be close to the drivetrain reliability point. Adding a pulley would likely cause you to become real friendly with a transmission specialist.
.
#72
Originally Posted by Grumpy666
OK, this is where I need some help. Sorry, but that's just my **** nature. I don't understand the mechanism for the increase in heat as RPMs rise. With the Lysholm-style compressor, boost is constant across the RPM range, so the heat due to adiabatic inefficiency should be constant. Of course, if there's a significant flow restriction somewhere downstream of the S/C, the boost and heat will rise.
A WOT blast w/data logging would be a good thing to shed some light. Especially before the precats go bye-bye. Is that where you're going to put the race cats, or are you going with a downpipe with the race cats replacing the original main cats?
Absolutely. You would gain more power by doing this and bumping the timing a little than you would get by increasing the boost. Engine longevity would also be enhanced.
With your mods, you would probably be close to the drivetrain reliability point. Adding a pulley would likely cause you to become real friendly with a transmission specialist.
.
A WOT blast w/data logging would be a good thing to shed some light. Especially before the precats go bye-bye. Is that where you're going to put the race cats, or are you going with a downpipe with the race cats replacing the original main cats?
Absolutely. You would gain more power by doing this and bumping the timing a little than you would get by increasing the boost. Engine longevity would also be enhanced.
With your mods, you would probably be close to the drivetrain reliability point. Adding a pulley would likely cause you to become real friendly with a transmission specialist.
.
#73
Originally Posted by ricky.agrawal
Are you sure about that? I thought the 65's and the 55's shared the same transmission?
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Originally Posted by Grumpy666
OK, this is where I need some help. Sorry, but that's just my **** nature. I don't understand the mechanism for the increase in heat as RPMs rise. With the Lysholm-style compressor, boost is constant across the RPM range, so the heat due to adiabatic inefficiency should be constant. Of course, if there's a significant flow restriction somewhere downstream of the S/C, the boost and heat will rise.
Power increases as RPMs climb and we make peak power somewhere around 6,200 - 6,400RPM. The heat that is generated at 3,000RPM is not the same as the heat generated at 6,000RPM.
Kenne Bell is a great resource on superchargers.. Here is a good read if you are interested: http://www.kennebell.net/techinfo/ge...efficiency.pdf
A WOT blast w/data logging would be a good thing to shed some light. Especially before the precats go bye-bye. Is that where you're going to put the race cats, or are you going with a downpipe with the race cats replacing the original main cats?
As for the race cats.. I will be experimenting with 2 different configurations. One configuration (the first one I will try) is to replace the main cats with the race cats and leave the secondaries alone and do some dyno pulls. I want to see how much HP is freed up by this simple swap.
Second test would be to:
- remove primary cats and replace with straight pipe.
- remove secondary cats and put race cats in their place.
- install O2 simulators
This should generate considerable power increases but I suspect that low-end torque will suffer somewhat.
With your mods, you would probably be close to the drivetrain reliability point. Adding a pulley would likely cause you to become real friendly with a transmission specialist.
.
.