vrus

The phenolic spacers are for the intake manifolds.

Gunite

I'll be first on line to buy this system from Aquamist when its ready. I have no doubt in my mind this will offer the ultimate in cooling IAT on the E55. I believe this will render all other cooling mods obsolete when installed. Its not for everyone because sometimes there is no convincing someone that injecting water in a fuel burning engine is beneficial. But That's ok because you'll never convince me that eating prunes are good for me.

Joe

PTE

Vrus:
I brought one of those DvD too. I got it install. Still have not figured out how too use it. Man !!!It was a Pain in the A$$ Just to get that far . Let me know if you figure it out
Thanks ___PTE___

vrus

I am able to search and get info, but its pretty damn hard to find the drawings or the particular document that pertains to a specific car...

It takes way too long so I get frustrated and just go take things apart in the engine compartment..

Evolution Marine

Grumpy - I am assuming that the motor parts surrounding intercooler and in contact with the intercooler are warmer than the intercooler and are radiating/transferring heat into the intercooler structure. If this is correct, then a ceramic coating on the exterior of the intercooler structure would reduce the heat radiated into the intercooler structure and would increase the efficiency of the intercooler's operation. - Bob

Grumpy666

What is your basis for inferring this? The IC s not floating in space. It is physically attached the both the engine and S/C. After a period of operation, the engine will come to thermo equilibium. Since the IC is connected the engine, it should reach the same temperature. Heat energy flows from the warmer object to the colder object, and will continue to flow until both are the same temperature.

Cory @ Kleemann

On some level he's correct. The IC core is fixed to the inlet plenum in the V of the engine- it does not touch the V of the engine anywhere- only the SC. If one was to coat the IC plenum (outside only), this will sheild it from the radiant heat from the V of the engine, thus, delaying heat soak, but not mitigating it.

By coating the IC core, you will increase the pressure drop due to all that extra material you're adding to the core. I'd be willing to bet you'd make less power with a coated IC core compared to a stock unit. If you really want to increase the cooling efficiency, you need to add more surface area to the core and reduce the pressure drop, not ceramic coat it.

Marcus Frost

If no one minds, I'd like to add my $.02

First off, Vadim and Cory, please provide me paypal addresses so I can send you guys money for a beer on me. For any tuner to divulge this info to us "mere mortals" is going above and beyond the call of duty. I sincerely appreciate and I think I speak for everyone when I say it truly reflects positively on the image of your respective companies.

With that said.

For comparison's sake I can see why Victor is comparing the M113K engine to the LS series. He realizes there are significant differences between the motors but talking engines of similar displacement and overall size does allow you to make some rough comparisons.

To touch on the coating of an IC - it's not going to help. It's been already pretty much been shot down (although, the intention was a good one) because it's just a bandaid solution. You aren't going to be able to keep that IC cool until it gets OUT of underneath the SC. I don't know WHY it has to cost $15k to develop something for it, I think that's just insane, but I'm hoping someone will take this on who has more time than I.

I've said it before that we aren't making enough power for 12psi on this engine given it's C/R. Cooling is an obvious holdback but because of Vadim's diagrams here I think we are starting to touch on another big factor here - that is airflow. I'm becoming very curious about our cylinder heads and their ability to deal with proper airflow in the SOHC 3 valve configuration. Does Kleemann or Evosport have any thoughts or insight into how our cylinder head looks? How are the ports? Heads? etc? I'm opening a virtual can of worms bringing cylinder heads into the equation here, simply because they are such a complex aspect of a motor, but it's really the next major component down the chain from the supercharger.

As I have previously stated, I am also sticking to the stock boost more efficiency route and I honestly believe it'll deliver very solid and CONSISTENT results once it's up and running properly. I don't plan on doing any injection kits because they simply aren't my personal style. I will be striving for upper 400rwhp range with stock boost. I don't know if it's possible yet simply because there is only so much a stock ECU can compensate for and some of my ideas simply may not be feasible within the contraints of a stock ECU. My focus is on removal of restrictions, and improvement on efficiency. I'm tackling the exhaust system first, which is getting done just as soon as my piping comes in. I definitely think my system is going to make some good power. From there, I've got a nice list of things to try.

Final question in this post for Evosport and Kleemann - I have spoken to you Vadim @ Evosport about multiple map ECUs like the Audi/VW/Porsche/WRX/etc cars have where you can store a 93 octane and a 100 octane map on the same ECU and enable them via a switch. Do we have any hope of doing the same with our cars? I really think an aggressive timing curve made for 100 octane would really pep these cars up and would love to have a map available for it when I hit the strip or have a night of highway madness ahead of me.

-m

Evolution Marine

You are correct that the IC is connected to the SC, however I think that the rate of heat transfer into the intercooler, with the ceramic coating on the exterior surface of it, would be less even though the intercooler is attached to the SC/Motor. These attachment points, that you are refferring to, are a relatively small percentage area in relation to the over-all exterior area of the intercooler; therefore the ceramic-coated exterior of the intercooler would reduce the temp. more than the temp. would be increased by these relatively small attachment points.

The connection at the motor, I am not sure about. As best I can tell by the parts diagram above in this thread and provided by "Vadim", shows two small tabs coming off the top of the intercooler. Anyway, those tabs are an insignificant source of heat and can be dealt with by using a phenolic washer partially isolating them physically from whatever part they are attached to (SC or Motor).

Now for the idea you gave me. I say replace gasket #47, in the diagram, with a thicker phenolic part ,and that will better isolate physically the intercooler from the SC, and the rubber hoses at the other end of the intercooler perform a partial isolation function also. The thicker phenolic gasket #47 should not create any clearance problems when used with EVO's thicker Phenolic Intake Manifold Spacers.

Another idea, while vrus has his SC off he should also ceramic coat the bottom side of the SC, that faces the intercooler, to also reduce the amount of heat radiating towards the intercooler from the SC. (Not sure baout this idea because the heat dissapation path on the bottom of the SC would be partially blocked)

Another Idea, use a heat shield (hose cover) over the coolant lines between the intercooler radiator and the intercooler reducing the radiated heat that would affect them.

Another Idea, increase air flow between the SC and the Intercooler and the Motor.

Another Idea, put a heatshield around the intercooler if room permits.

If all these ideas can be implimented the intercooler efficiency will go up.

- Bob

Marcus Frost

Ok I finally had some time to spend looking at the picture Vadim posted.

To remove the intercooler from under the S/C on our cars IS NOT difficult. You guys really have to see some of the plumbing NIGHTMARES I've seen on various turbocharged cars before to really get my perspective on this. We need to kill the airboxes, add two conical air filters at the inlets in front, plumb them into the SC, and then use SLR style intercoolers in place of the airboxes.

It won't be easy to remove the S/C, but seriously fellas, this IS NOT A DIFFICULT TASK! It should also not be expensive. Those SLR intercoolers are nice pieces but I've seen much, much nicer ones fabricated in guy's garages out of off the shelf parts.

I really wish I had the time and a nearby shop to work on this with. The finished product wouldn't be as pretty as OEM (it could be made to be close), but it would basically be an SLR style setup with some pretty simple plumbing.

It can be done. Thanks again for the pictures Vadim. I really hope to see something from you guys in the very near future.

-m

e55 baller

Someone should make a huge front bumber redesign that allows for a massive (e.g., 24x12x4) air-air FMIC to sit out front. I gained 42 rwhp on my Supra from stock to a Greddy 4-row and picked up 35 rwhp on my Audi S4.

The S4 folks said it could never be done and many opted to go with a wimpy RS4 version which provided about 33% increased cooling capacity compared with 2x. This one guy fabricated it to work with a reiger bumber and it cost $2600 but seriously increased the efficiency. I had to wait 10 months but it ended up being worth it. When I had both my S4 and Stock E55 the S4 would be side by side until 100mph.

I bet it would take a lot of relocation effort but would be one way to effectively cool and very hot car.

medici78

Are the SLR intercoolers simply (much, much) larger heat exchangers where only coolant/water is pumped through, or does the pressurized are actually moved through them?

Vadim @ evosport

The intercooler is bolted up to the kompressor with 4 bolts through a metal gasket. Picture below shows C32 intecooler looking up from the cylinder valley. MB uses this picture to describe how to work on 55 kompressor engine.

It is basically the same as C32, except add two more cylinders.

At one time I was going to make a set of phenolic spacers to isolate the intercooler from kompressor and to isolate kompressor from the cylinder heads. Since installation required removing kompressor to install spacers we never went forward. Combined with heat reflective coating on intercooler housing, this might be another option to get intake temperatures down.

As far as relocating intercooler to the top of the engine - I am making a set similar to SLRs for my C32. In several weeks, I hope to see the results.

Marcus Frost

Vadim,

Bravo. Ceramic coating + phelonic spacers may work but getting that blower off our cars is not worth the effort unless we're going to see something substantial as a result.

I honestly think if we kill the airboxes, add some conical air filters up front, and then just feed the air in ala-SLR. I've seen some IMPOSSIBLE looking piping setups on cars converted to turbo or twin turbo from naturally aspirated and this is seriously a walk in the park. I know it wouldn't be super cheap but we aren't really talking about very complicated parts. I think removing the supercharger would be the most time consuming part.

Those SLR intercoolers are veery simple looking. Size the core, the end tanks probably are a bit more custom but with the right piping they shouldn't be that difficult either.

Guys, let's give Evosport some support here! This would be a great mod if it can be done economically and it's another one of those mods we love because it actually improves performance through enhancing efficiency. It makes your car MORE reliable and generates more consistent power under the same conditions. We need Evosport to see we are interested so that they can give us a more realistic idea of what this would involve. As far as I can see, and I must point out looking at pictures is often a limited perspective, I do not see this as extremely complicated other than removing the supercgarger.

-m

vrus

Marcus,

I've talked to Brad about this stuff a few times. They are concentrating their efforts on the C series right now and all the E55 stuff is temporarily on hold.

E552006

Guys
You all are really on to something here.
I come from the Supra TT RX7 community and a lot of our power gains came through efficiency and cooling the charge intake better(along with raising boost and bigger turbos). But cooling always came first.
This engine and supercharger are amazing pieces but the cooling is crap.
The ONLY way to do this right,IMO, is to relocate the intercooler and provide better plumbing(Ceramic coated).
I have dealt with heat issues from hell with Rx7's and have installed some complicated plumbing on my Supra's. One thing I will say, it's all worth it in the end.
You have a much better running car that is more reliable and efficient.
I would rather spend 3k on an intercooler upgrade than 3k on an ECU.
Josh

medici78

Just making sure, but in the diagram:
50: the blower
110/2: intercooler
110/8: intake manifold (goes to the heads)?

Evolution Marine

Thats what we are looking at. - Bob

medici78

How large are the heat exchangers on the SLR? I am assuming it is still a water-to-air intercooling system, although it has 2 cores on top of the engine vs 1 between the "V".