rflow306

Victor which scanner do you have the auto-tap ?. I'm thinking about getting this one, http://www.autoenginuity.com/index.html with the can option. Opinions or suggestions welcome.

Marcus Frost

Interesting results Victor. I also noticed you dyno'd on a different machine this time, although they both appear to be Dynojets one is using the older STD standard and the previous one was using the SAE correction standard. Realistically you should try to hit the same dyno you ran on before to get the best comparison between the two sets of numbers.

First off, Evosport needs to chime in here and speak up for their product because it is NOT delivering as promsied. Their claims and the reality of your situation are not jiving and they should be on this thread attempting to fix or explain the situation. It'll be interesting to see how my car does with the Kleemann style collector headers vs. your evosport headers, since we both made similar power stock.

Remember, you aren't the first person to try headers without ECU

In addition, we need to see IATs and Timing #s for these runs to really start to draw realistic conclusions. You've got fairly lean A/Fs so I really don't think adding fuel will give you any power - what'll be interesting is to see how your timing curve matches your power curve.

If I must be so bold - I'm not buying that you've gone past the limit of the stock ECU. I'm just not. Something is not right. Increasing exhaust flow is a fundamental & easy to adapt condition that the car should be able to work with. I just don't think an mass production car ECU can be so strict as to not even give up a FEW rwhp from a fairly significant exhaust upgrade. In addition, the dissipation of heat is something that the ECU cannot deny, either. Remember, these ECUs are designed to run in -10C to 50C, sea level, and 6000ft above sea level, 0% humidity & 100% humidity. IT HAS to be flexible.

We need the tuners in on this thread, and we need some datalogs.

-m

blackbenzz

Why does your x axis have time instead of rpm's?

medici78

Perhaps the stock exhaust is efficient enough that there's not much room for improvement on that front. I recall you only had a section of 3" pipe. Maybe a full 3" exhaust would have given you more gains rather than reducing back down to 2.75". If you compare the stock AMG exhaust to most other cars' it just looks more efficient.

darren_dallas

Victor,

I personally think your A/F loooks great. You will lose power, especially on the top end, by adding more fuel. An 11.5:1 in the upper rev range is great. You don't want to go any leaner on a FI car, but going lower (more fuel) will make you lose power.

Cheerio,

Darren

Grumpy666

Why do you think you need more timing with increased flow? Ignition timing for an engine is based primarily on the burn efficiency of the fuel mixture, not how much gets stuffed into the cylinder. If the ECU is already pulling timing, adding more seems counter-productive.



I thought you already had the headers. Didn't you just remove three suspected flow restrictions on each side and replace them with one less-restictive element? Plus a little more pipe volume?


These don't look too bad. I don't think you'll make much difference by altering your fuel tables. How do these compare to your last dyno session?


I would tread slowly here. You don't want to spiral out of control by making quick changes to fix previous changes that gave unexpected results. We need to review the data more thoroughly before making more changes. If it were my car, I would be inclined to replace the stock exhaust system and re-baseline the car to verify the problem.


Danger, Will Robinson. Adding a methanol mixture will actually cause a leaner condition, not richer. It will oxygenate the fuel similar to what ethanol does. The stoichiometric air/fuel ratio will go down from 14.7:1 to somewhere around 13.8:1. This means that for the same volume of fuel, less air will be needed to burn it completely. If you still plan to alter your fuel tables, you'll probably want to incorporate this change, too.

eclou

Ignition timing gets pulled when the knock sensors detect pre-detonation. I would suspect the motor is now experiencing enough of that to pull back more timing than before the exhaust mods. Going to colder plugs with a tighter gap might help reduce the knock and allow more timing to remain


Unless he went with a an insane mixture of meth it would be very unlikely to see any problems. The meth will lead to a slower burn and cooler flame front, giving the effect of a significant boost in octane. The oxygenation is going to be minimal compared to the usage in a dragster. The water/meth mix will result in a RICHER mixture due to the displacement of air molecules by the addition of water vapor. The primary benefit being the phase change taking the water/meth from liquid to vapor is endothermic in nature and removes as fair amount of heat from the intake charge - the latent heat of vaporization.

BenzoBoi

You know me too well!~! If all goes well I would like to talk to ya about what you did and hopefully run the same or similiar set up as yourself. Just shoot over a PM anytime. Great appreciated for keeping me in mind

Vadim @ evosport

Wow! Lots of info. Let see if we can make some sense:

1. Victor, Marcus is right - can you get your graph in SAE HP/TQ vs. rpm? STD tends to use lower temps to correct and is usually a bit higher in final numbers.

2. As far as headers not working, remember we quote them on Stage II car and Victors car does not have pulleys nor proper software.

3. A/F,l frankly fuel looks good. There is about 2-3 second time delay before DME will switch to WOT fuel table, this is why it looks like car is lean at low rpms.

Victor try not to use dyno mode and make a run from 3600 - 6600 rpm in 3rd gear, with just ETC turned off. This is how we dyno. For some reason dyno mode uses a different map than WOT, which causes strange readings.

4. With SFT at 99% and A/F looking good tells me that O2s are not reading correctly. Something is not right.

Since your stock exhaust is still in one piece, can you go back to it?

vrus

I went back to the same dyno I used last time.. I never noticed the STD before on the graph. He also printed the graph incorrectly and I didnt notice until I got home that I didn't have the RPM on the X-Axis.

I think the headers were doing what was advertised. I dyno'd 411rwhp, 476rwtq with just air filters and heat wrap. I dyno'd 442rwhp, 497rwtq with the headers and cooling system in.

Now, I dynod the same 433rwhp, 497rwtq by adding the exhaust.

My conclusions were drawn based on the fact that the power didnt increase after adding the exhaust. It didn't make sense to me either and that's why I assumed the stock ECU was at its limits.

I have to get on the road and do same data logs to see what the timing values are. I just don't get why the STFT are showing 99.2%.. That to me means the ECU is trying to increase the injector pulse to add more fuel.. Why?

Operator screwed up and I didn't notice until I got home.

I don't buy that.. The 4 x 400cell count catalytic converters are much more restrictive that having just 1 pair of 100cell count. Something else is going on. It's either fuel, timing, or O2 sensor related.

Everyone keeps mentioning that you will lose power with more fuel.. That is true to a certain extent. The upper end looks fine.. it's the lower end < 4,000 that I was worried about. Peak torque happens at 2,600RPM. On all cars I have owned I've always gotten peak torque with richer A/F.

Maybe the ECU is pulling timing because of the increased flow? Don't know...

My assumption was that the ECU was pulling timing because of a lean condition (because of the 99.2% STFT), therefore I assumed increasing A/F and ultimately increasing timing would remedy that.

I did already have the headers. The point I was trying to make was that once I put the headers on to open up the exhaust it seemed as though I hit the barrier to what the ECU could compensate for. Because, after I added the exhaust, there was no more increase.

Like everyone is saying, maybe there is a problem with the O2 sensor or something else that happened during the install.

I am scheduled to go back on Monday morning and we are going to pull the exhaust and inspect it all. Hopefully I'll find what is wrong. If it isn't readily apparent, the stock exhaust will go back on and I'll re-dyno again.

Grumpy666

The displacement of air molecules due to the addition of water vapor will be offset by the significantly denser air caused by the cooling effect of the endothermic reaction. Plus, methanol releases oxygen when it burns (the oxygenating effect). I doubt that the fuel mixture will become richer.

Grumpy666

OK - I understand your reasoning now. But, adding more timing is attacking the symtom, not the problem. You could make things worse.

vrus

After re-thinking it, I am going to slow down a bit and not touch the ECU for now. I am going in on Monday to have them drop the exhaust and inspect everything for any problems (O2, cats, etc)..

I'll report back on Monday night. Hopefully it's something simple. If they can't find anything, the stock one will go back on and I'll redyno again to make sure another problem didn't introduce itself.

eclou

It always become richer. The displacement factor is more significant that the change in density from cooling. It always drops the AFR by about .5 to 1 pt on the AFR. Seems contrary to intuition but that is what is empirically observed.

eclou

Check the plugs first! They are the easiest way to gauge the conditions in your combustion chamber. Also, try colder plugs , 1-2 stages. The NGK BPR series is excellent, usually about $2.50 per plug. Don't bother with Iridium. You will be amazed what a good plug can do for an FI car running on the edge.

vrus

I dont know if running a colder plug is going to help on this car.. I remember asking EVO about this and they said the plugs didnt work out well.. I am not sure which brand they tried, but it's funny that none of the tuners put aftermarket plugs in the car???

To be safe, I am just going to buy some new stock plugs so that I dont introduce yet another variable into the equation.

Rafal

Victor, I have an idea for you, but I think you might not like it!
As a former scientist I was trained to change one parameter at a time and then measure its effect, before moving onto the next one. That way you know which mod or change works and which one doesn't. By changing two, three or six variables at once, which you have done, the permutations of their mutual effects on all other parameters are immeasurable and unquantifiable!

Change it all back to stock and you will see what a fantastic, cool-running and responsive car you've got. That's if you are ever really going to use and enjoy this car outside the dyno shop...

vrus

Hey Rafal,

I do enjoy my car very much! Tinkering with it and trying to make it faster, better, is what keeps me interested. I usually change cars every 6-12months because I get bored with them and want something different. My E55 has me very intrigued with power potential to be honest.

There are always set-backs when you take the approach I have and it is expected. It does not bother me other than wanting to get to the bottom of it and making it right.

My car will be spending alot of time on the dyno because that is the only way I will know if I am heading in the right direction. Besides, the utter joy of possibly reaching my 700hp goal will be well worth it in the end.

Evolution Marine

vrus - We all appreciate your dedication and enthusiasm for your E55 project. - Bob

Zeppelin

So you get the same Hp and Tq numbers before and after the exhaust change and now you think something is wrong. Lets face it, not all mods are going to make more power, that's why there are high R&D costs on these parts we buy. It may be that AMG knew what they were doing when the designed the exhaust. Good Luck with further testing.

Rafal

Hey Victor,
Good luck with your quest for the "Holy Grail" of 700hp!
You have us all enthralled! Exhaust tuning is a long and expensive passtime, even for a big company. When Porsche changed from their air-cooled 993 to a water-cooled boxer flat 6 in the 996, they spent over a million bucks just getting the sound right in the exhaust. The sound of the new water cooled engine was nothing like the classic Porsche without it. And that's just the sound tuning! I would hate to think what the've spent on performance tuning first! You've been warned...

JamE55

Victor,

I think your quest for the 700hp is great and all but i don't think it's possible to reach that kind of power and still be legal as far as emmisions. Just read the latest issue of Mercedes Enthusiasts and they featured the E55 MKB RS/E. And read that that car isn't even running catalytic converters (since the owner resides in a country that running no cats is not an issue) and that car also has some serious upgraded internals such as Mahle pistons, uprated crankshaft, connecting rods and is also runing 1.1lbs boost. It'll be great though if you can achieve that 700hp mark and still be legal. Hope you can do it!

E552006

I have seen projects like this happening on the Supra Forums.
(I have owned 3 different MKIV's)
One thing I will say is that no-one, to my knowledge, has grenaded one of these engines with proper a/f ratios. Who really knows what these v8's can do with enough boost and fuel. Cats are not an issue, with modern catalytic engineering you can easily flow the exhaust energy. The real issue with our cars remains to be the OEM blower being pushed beyond it's efficiency envelope and heat under the hood.
I say, go for it if you have the pockets and thanks for your work thus far
I may be joining the ranks soon, I have fallen in love with my 06 E55 AMG in under 500 miles and am looking forward to the journey of MODs!
This is the most fun I have had in a car since my 600 hp Supra 4 yrs ago.

DJE55

Vrus, what's going on with the exhaust? Did you figure out what is going on with it? I was at Altered Atmosphere (local shop in Md) this weekend and the owner has race cats and 3" pipe on his E55. His car picked up about 15hp with his exhaust set up. I didn't have a camera or I would have taken pictures of his car. He didn't use and x pipe. He had some type of H pipe in his system but the H was about 1.5 maybe 2" pipe. Not sure. I'll find out more info for you later. I was just curious if you figured out why yours didn't make any more power.

Derrick

stevebez

Vrus,

Been anticpating these results for a while now ... keep it up mate !!!

Just my 2c - do you have any readings of boost pressure - before and after the change of exhaust system ? I was wondering if there was a drop in boost pressure given that you are now releasing exhaust gases more efficiently ?

Secondly, do we have any readings of EGT's - its my suspicion the engine is running cooler - not the engine itself - but the combustion chamber down is cooler resulting in less expansion of air and therefore less (or same given higher efficiency) power. Perhaps I am talking complete baloney - but trying to understand this ...If the engine is thermally more efficient - it will run cooler but EGT's lower meaning similar power due to both effects cancelling. To take advanatge of this I think you may need to up the boost - and I know you are leaving that to a last resort - which I agree with. But we need to know the boost pressures after this mod to see how the induction side is being affected.

This may be why evosport/kleemann/dms/mkb require the pulley to get best results from the exhaust / header mod.

Rgds Steve.