AMG&AMG

but high revs are always better in corners

stevebez

A high revver will always suit a track better as you can pack the gear ratios nice and tight - but these also tend to have a small power band - so its trickier to drive... less forgiving.

I attended this ...

http://www.motorsportsensation.com

... over the weekend and was absolutely sensational. If you are a petrolhead then this is for you no questions. One thing is clear ... if you going to the track do yourself a favour ... get a proper track car. They are about a quarter the cost of the E55/M5 etc and are much much much quicker.

The Palmer Audi single seater and the Jaguar JP1 are just magic. I reckon I may look into getting a Palmer Audi ... intoxicating.

Rgds Steve.

W210

Very well said. The E55 is a great everyday luxury car. I certainly don't want to deal with the noise, vibration and harshness of a high-rev engine and the jerky sentimental SMG day in day out.

Now if I could only afford one car and plan to use it for the track or mountain roads most of the time, the M5 would be nice.

Improviz

Exactly! Why would anyone even consider buying a 4,000+ pound, four door sedan for $90,000 based upon its track numbers??? It's ridiculous. The track numbers these cars generate are indeed impressive, particularly given their size and weight, but in terms of tire wear, brake wear, the higher stress of higher weight on the suspension bits, etc., they would be a poor choice...

I mean, if I wanted a car that would turn fast lap times and had $90G to spend, I'd get a Z06, a used Porsche TT, an Elise w/turbo upgrade, etc...

This is what's silly about M&M et al coming in here endlessly reciting track numbers...it is as though the only, absolute, paramount, be-all, end-all criterion to select a car is its track numbers--until, of course, one points out that there are cars available for less money that will outperform their beloved BMWs on a track, at which point they either change the subject or disappear.

So, an M3 will run a low-mid 13 sec. 1/4 mile, and lap times close to a 911 for about $50K?? Great, but a Z06 (the previous one) would run mid-low 12's and lap times equal to a 911 TT for less than that.

So an M5 will run a low-mid 12 sec. 1/4 mile and lap times at, or a bit faster than, a 911 TT for $90K? Great, but a new Z06 will run high 11's and lap faster.

In other words, their whole cause celebre` is, quite frankly, a joke.

skratch77

impro No one was compairing any times until you brought up that test.

heres another thread that you made go off topic congrats

try driving the z06 in the snow or rain even and try taking out 3 of your friends in it.Theres a reason why people buy e55's and m5's I have no idea why you would bring up the z06 in this thread.They are differnet cars bro.

theres 400whp m3's selling for under 25k that would literally **** on any m5 or e55 on any track

again thats not why people buy m5s.maybe they just want a 4 door car thats more of a drivers car than the rest.

im sure the people looking at z06 are also checking out e55s and m5s for there everyday cars.

Improviz

Umm, hey, here's a suggestion: try actually watching the video. It, you see, actually has numbers in it. These numbers are "times". And the test, you see, was a "comparison".

Yes, and to hold those extra passengers takes extra space. Which adds extra weight. Which slows the car down around a track. I.e., such a vehicle is by definition a compromise, because its higher weight makes its track performance suffer in comparison to less expensive, faster, better suited cars Which is why it's stupid to continually come in here and act as though the track numbers of a 4,000 pound four door $90,000 sedan are the most important criterion to consider in the purchase of such an automoble.

And puhleeze, the M5 is a snowmobile all of a sudden? It's rwd, the 'vette is rwd...neither of them would be half as competant in the snow as an Audi A6 quattro, so I doubt many people are considering their snow performance...oh, and btw, nobody was comparing snow performance in this thread, or how many people could be seated in these cars...here's another attempt by you to take the thread off topic.

[QUOTE=skratch77theres 400whp m3's selling for under 25k that would literally **** on any m5 or e55 on any track [/quote]

I have seen no such car for sale...got a link? And even if there is, this actually helps, rather than hurts, the point I was trying to make: there are lots of better track cars for the money.

You're missing my point. The point is that BMW trolls are constantly coming in here and posting track numbers as if they're the most important thing in the world. But if they are the most important thing, then why buy an M5 when a Z06 would kill it for nearly $30,000 less??

Clearly, anyone who buys a car such as this is probably NOT putting track performance at the top of the list; if they are, they should probably consider taking a course like the one stevebez attended.

As you point out, correctly, perhaps the people who buy one want four doors, luggage carrying capacity, luxury, etc...but all of this comes at the expense of track performance. There's no such thing as a perfect car; all of them do some things better than others, and if you give them more performance, you lose mileage, quiet, and comfort (M5) while if you give them less performance, you can make them more comfortable, less noisy, w/better mileage (Infiniti M45, for example).

Or, you can make them smaller, lighter, with less space, higher horsepower, and better track animals. It is all a question of priorities, and what compromises one is prepared to make.

But for the money, the M5 is a great car, but a poor choice for a track runner, at least if one is concerned with running the fastest times; there are other cars, for far less, that'll turn much better times.

skratch77

exactly my point.who in there right mind would buy an m5 or e55 for a track car.

when I watched the vid I didnt care what there numbers were I just saw some awesome cars being tested.

and who really cares if you car gets to 60 a 1/4 of a second faster.Its almost sounds like you guys are buying your cars just for this very reason.

people that buy an m5 know that it has no low end grunt and dont give a crap how ugly it looks.They also dont buy it because of its 0-60 time or 1/4 time.

heck when I was in greece I never once even heard any of the kids there talk about 1/4 mile times with there cars.They just dont look at that number the way we do here.

if you are buyin a car for its 1/4 time then you should look at other cars out there.

Improviz

Absolutely!! That's why I get so annoyed with M&M, the hawk/gabri343, etc...

These are great cars, but they are also big, heavy sedans, and while they handle and perform marvelously for big, heavy sedans, *no one* is going to be confusing them with a Lotus Elise on a track.

Otoh, the Lotus Elise has a stiffer ride, no luxury, and is about 50,000 times louder.

Always a tradeoff....in cars and in life!

M&M

No-one buys an M5 to use at the track. Who said they do? But track numbers give an indication of the cars handling, dynamics, balance, etc. Most people that bought an M5/E55 could afford a Z06. But the beauty of freedom of choice is they CHOSE the car that's better suited to their personal needs. If they need 4 doors & more space then there's no contest. If they can also take their 4-door car onto the circuit for some club events from time to time then that's even better.

I have a separate track car & it's a big expense. You need an extra garage. You need to maintain it. You need to repair it. Then you need tyres all the time. It's a mission driving to the track & it your tyres aren't street legal then you either have to swap mags & then swap back at the track, or tow the car there. Once you on the track, sure its faster, but sometimes a racecar can be too fast & uncompromising & you lose the point of why you go to track days in the 1st place. To have fun.

So that's why some people choose a 4-door car, but keep an eye on the track & cornering numbers.

Peace out, no flames please. This is just my take on the subject.

W210

For street use, low end grunt is absolutely useful and addictive, which is why I decided to keep the E55.

wolverine

I have to agree that very few people buy an M5 to track the car. If you do, plan on purchasing a new set of tires for each day of track time. It's just too heavy a car to push around the track on a regular basis.

Track times can give a good indication of the car's handling ability though, and I think that is the point of quoting the times. For two cars of relatively equal weight and horsepower, track times will give a good indication of the relative handling.

However, track times start to lose their relevance if you have a big mismatch in horsepower. A very high HP car can handle like a pig, but make it around a track quicker than a terrific handling, low HP car.

If I do track my M5, it will be very limited.

Jon200

Thanks for the link, awesome video

don't like the styling of the Alphina, it could do with better rims :p Nice colour on the M5

The E55 fared well against the M5 considering its at least 3 years older and weights more with less hp

enzom

Well said.

Improviz

Well, judging by the amount of time you spend here posting BMW track numbers, it would certainly seem to be your view.

Yes, and anyone who can afford an E55 can afford an M5, just as anyone who can afford a C55 or CLK55 can afford an M3...and that's the point: if track numbers are the most important consideration, which you clearly feel they are given the amount of time you spend here posting them, then you're driving the wrong car. Here's proof:

You like to quote Hockenheim and Nurburgring times for your M3, the M5, etc...here are the numbers for a C5 Corvette (previous gen), NOT a Z06:
http://www.einszweidrei.de/chevrolet...arga2003-1.htm
Nordschleife 8.18 min
Hockenheim 1.15,9 min

So how does this compare to the E46 M3?
http://www.einszweidrei.de/bmw/m3e46st2000-1.htm
Nordschleife 8.22 min
Hockenheim: 1.17,6 min

Better, by about four seconds around Nurburging, and even beats your cherry-picked favorite (see below) And a Z06 is even faster: it ran a full second faster around Hockenheim, *and* this was the MY 2000 model; later versions were up 20 hp on this:
http://www.einszweidrei.de/chevrolet...cz062000-1.htm
Hockenheim: 1.14,9 min

And that was the C5...but there's a new kid on the block: the C6. And the base C6, which at a base price $44,600 undercuts the $48,900 M3 by $4,000, actually beat the previous generation Z06:
http://www.einszweidrei.de/chevrolet...6t6g2005-1.htm
Hockenheim: 1.14,8 min

So how does this compare with your personal cherry-picked favorite, the fastest E46 M3 tested? Well, it kills it:
http://www.einszweidrei.de/bmw/m32003-1.htm
Hockenheim: 1.16,3 min

And this M3 turned in faster lap times by a significant margin than all other E46 M3s tested. For example, the one above, along with this one:
http://www.einszweidrei.de/bmw/m32002-1.htm
Hockenheim: 1:17,6 min

..and this one:
http://www.einszweidrei.de/bmw/m3e462005-1.htm
Hockenheim: 1.16,9 min

...and this one:
http://www.einszweidrei.de/bmw/bmwm3cp2005-1.htm
Hockenheim: 1.17,8 min

So there. You wasted your money, dude: a C6 will take that thing all day, any day, for $4K less.

Yes, AS DID WE!!!

So why are you here?

You and your trolling friend the hawk/gabri343 certainly have no respect whatsoever for the personal decisions we've made, as you're constantly throwing whatever BMW material you can find up in our faces, and that's the bottom line. Grow up, learn to respect others' decisions, and understand that what's right for you might not be right for others.

M&M

How Impro, what's with you? When last did I post stats? I'm just giving my opinion here man. And I already said I respect that each person has a different criteria in their choice of car. What gives?

W210

Two words: insecurity complex.

Hey I feel great about the E55 which is why I share my joy here with fellow members.

The more these clowns make noise here, the more fortunate I feel.

Heck I just ordered a 750Li, would I go to the S-class board to post why I think my BMW is superior? Give me a break.

There is a big difference between a E55 owner and a M5-want-to-be. Most of these BMW fans frequenting MB forums are only defending their dream car, their parents' purchase, their loyal brand. They'll never have the capacity to understand why we buy our E55.

It's shocking to see so much of someone's pride based on something as unimportant as BMW beating AMG. With due respect, at best they remind me of Jehovah's Witnesses on a mission to enlist, or at worst I can picture them flipping into die-hard terrorists.

Hate to sound partronizing but at the end of the day, why get so worked up on something you don't even have? Get your priorities straight and oneday, you'll be able to buy an E55 AND a M5.

Focus on these you like, be more positive in life, why should you even giving a flying xxxx why we like our AMG?

stevebez

I am not so sure about this ... I would take the better handling car any day over a big horsepower unit on a "normal" racing track - on a speedway higher HP is king. It also depends on just how much HP differential you are talking about!

I initialy thought it would depend on the track but if you look at the Radical S8 ... with "only" 340HP - its the quickest prodction car round Nurburgring Nordschleife in 6 mins 55 secs... not massive HP but that baby can stick like glue. I think what makes a big difference is power/weight ratio for the track. Porsche have been very good over the years using this "formula" to make quick cars.

Check it out ....

http://www.radicalextremesportscars....0905/index.php

Keep in mind this car is road legal !!!!

Rgds Steve.

stevebez

Guys you think we can agree the E55 / M5 are the two sides of the same coin ??

Each have their merits ... Some love the more racy attitude of the M5 - some like the low down torque of the E55 ... etc etc ...

Which is better ? What ever you buy is what is better to YOU. And thank goodness we have these fabulous choices (and others) available to us today to enjoy our motoring the way WE want.

I really dont see the point of trying to convince each other which is better. It is too subjective ... If you are trying to justify to others what you bought to get some relief from an episode of buyers remorse ... well - fine ... at least you will be entertaining to us enjoying our cars... whatever thay are.

I for one can respect and appreciate both cars ... but I prefer the E55 - simple as that.

Drive safely!



Rgds Steve.

skratch77

There both awesome cars

and if any of you e55 owners want to check out a very nice m5 theres one for sale for 40k or best offer and has the dinan s2 pack that cost 30k just for that.It has 471hp and only 55k miles on it.

a deal like this is simply to hard to pass if you have the money

AMGfan

Steve...I agree with your assertion about a lower HP car having the potential to be a really quick track car...We can have the "most powerful" and "greatest handling" cars but at the end of the day if you suck as a driver then a Miata with a competent driver may kill us on a circuit. Harnessing all that power and handling isn't as easy as it sounds.

I'll be the first to tell you that my abilities as a driver is the limiting factor. Just give me my E55 to point and throttle in a straight line (with an occasional bend). Simple stupid...because I wouldn't be able to touch the full potential of either the E55 and M5 in real life.