siswati

Hey Improviz

Bye now you know I've been one of your major fans on this forum, but you need to cut KK some slack - hes been making some really sound posts recently, some really insightful posts regarding the pros and cons of both the M5 and E55 cars (and he does, like a few others, unlike the rest of us, have a unique perspective to compare the two, as he has owned both), and this last post of his was nothing inflammatory.

So back away from the KK just a tad will ya - just my opinion

Siswati
Thinking to himself, praying, .......hope I havent brought the wrath of Improviz on myself ..........hope I havent brought the wrath of Improviz on myself ..........hope I havent brought the wrath of Improviz on myself ..........

E55_POWER

Impro, not defending the M5 or anything as I too was a pretty antagonistic person on the M5 after driving it for 5 days.

I have to disagree with some of your comments as it crazy as it may sound, the M5 does require more skill than the E. Sure pulling the paddles is easy but you have to keep your eye on the tach and shift the car precisely or you get out of the sweetspot where the E55 you just hit the gas and watch the road.

As for the 550i, pretty impressive car. I think this car is a good low 13s car, pretty impressive and frankly the 550i is probably faster than P400 M5.

Improviz

Yes, but I have driven both manuals (in fact I've got more time in cars w/manuals than w/autos) and SMG cars, and no offense, but the amount of skill required to operate an SMG w/launch control pales in comparison to that required to execute, for example, a good 1/4 mile run in a manual transmission car...or a rev-matched heel and toe downshift: with the manual, you hit the clutch w/left foot, brake and throttle at the same time w/right foot, blip throttle while clutch depressed to bring revs up to speed at which they'll be in next gear, engage next gear, and release clutch--while setting up for a corner.

THAT takes a lot of skill.

W/an SMG, you need only brake and steer, and pull the downshift lever w/your left hand; SMG does the rest, including the rev matching.

Which is great, but it really doesn't require any more skill than it takes to operate the E55 in manual mode.

Again, no offense, but you guys are making it sound like SMG is a lot more complicated than it actually is. It's probably a bit more tricky for you, if as you implied you've never owned a manual, but compared to actual 10/10 driving w/a manual, it's a cakewalk.

I'm sure it's a blast to drive, though...I'm only taking issue w/a few of the comments krispy made....enjoy it, and congratulations.

E55_POWER

Agree that a manual is 100 times harder to launch in the 1/4 mile than SMG. SMG does not take "skill" per say but requires more attention than Auto - that's what I should have stated earlier actually.

krispykrme

Not true.

It's always better to have actual control of the clutch as heel and toe can be done better. Yes SMG tries to do that for you and gear engagment is now quicker in SMGIII, but to have it do exactly how and when you wanted it is still better to have a true manual.

In addition, it is more difficult to drive SMG smoothly than true manual because blipping of throttle has to perfectly match the clutch engagment by SMG.

Anyone who have been driving a manual for a while will find that true manual will still be easier to driver and less electronic involvement.

Improviz

Oh, hey, don't get me wrong, I'm not meaning to hate on krispy, but i think it's kind of condescending to act as though the M5 is an order of magnitude of complexity above an auto, and kind of silly to act as though straight line performance isn't a high priority to someone who bought a $85,000, 500 horsepower car. Obviously, straight line performance is important to anyone who buys an M5; otherwise, as I pointed out, one could get a 550i, or for that matter a 525i, throw a sport package on there, and get handling just as good...in fact, w/the 525i it would actually be better, as there's not nearly as much weight, and less weight on the front end, which helps handling.

So in fact, when one buys an M5, one is sacrificing handling somewhat to achive power. Now, before anyone starts screaming "BUT THE M5 HANDLES BETTER THAN THE 525!!", well, yes, BUT...throw the same suspension on there that's on the M5 and see which one handles better.

But trust me, I'm just tweaking krispy's chain a bit...I too appreciate his newfound openmindedness!!

Improviz

It is true. It is easier to pull a lever than to heel-and-toe shift. A pull on a lever is one operation; a heel and toe is five separate operations:
- brake
- engage clutch
- while holding braking with right foot, blip throttle with right foot
- when revs match what they will be in lower gear, disengage clutch

Contrast this to SMG:
- brake
- pull SMG lever downshift lever. SMG system automatically engages clutch, raises engine's revs to perfectly match what they will be in lower gear, downshifts, and disengages clutch.

In no way does this require as much skill or driver involvement as does heel-and-toeing.

I agree that it's more involving and fun to drive a true manual than an SMG, but under any circumstances, performing the steps I outlined above are much more complicated than pulling a downshift lever.

??? I'm not sure what you're saying here...the driver does not blip the throttle at all during an SMG shift; this is done by the engine computer.

Less electronic involvement; absolutely. Easier to drive: no. Heel-and-toeing is more complicated than pulling a lever.

krispykrme

The problem in dealing with you is that you had no experience on the SMG.

It's not as easy as you make it out to be.

For example, do you need to blip your throttle before shifting on the E55. (wait a second, you don't have one).

Two, despite the improvement made to SMGIII. There are still intervention that SMG has as compare to true manual.

Anyone who has driven manual for a long period of time, will tell you that no matter how good SMG is it will never be as good and as smooth as true manual, especially when you are in all out acceleration.

With M5 in S6 mode plus the LC in US is at mere 1600 RPM, to launch it would be more difficult and very unsmooth under hard acceleration. Each GEAR shift is accompanied by a very hard gear engagement. Anybody with any kind of skill in driving a manual will be able to drive it far smoother in hard launch.

SMGIII has been greatly improved to allow more quicker downshift. But unlike true manual in which you as driver has total control on how many gear you like to skip when downshift, the SMGIII still will not allow you to downshift to particular gear if the chance of overrev exist, in addition, even though the delay in checking for possible overrev is shorten by quiet a bit on SMGIII. It is still an intervention on the driver's input.

None of this is an issue on the automatic E55.

krispykrme

How long have you been driving a manual?

Heel and toe for experienced driver is actually quiet simple.

The biggest benefit is that as a driver you have complete control on the engine rev to engage the lower gear, which is not possible under SMG (I believe SMG rev match is somewhere between 4500 and 5000 RPM).

Prior to SMG does all the thing you mentioned, SMG will check to see if downshift will cause over-rev. Even though SMGIII has reduced the time for this to happen, you as driver still have no 100% control of the gear box.

Downshift one gear is lightening fast in SMG, but more than that it will really depends on your rev, speed, and gear you were in previously. This is something you don't have to deal with on the pure manual.

SMG has its benefit, but it still has its drawbacks and require more skilled driver to learn its habit.

I have been driven manual since 1980's. Heel and toe its not that difficult once you get used to it. SMG on the other hand still a learning process.

Not really true. If you don't learn to time the clutch release on the SMG it will shift very hard and killing your gear box at same time. (not a problem with true manual, because you as driver is in complete control of clutch release, throttle, and gear selection).

krispykrme

One more thing like i would like to add.

Is that so far everytime that I have used LC to launch the car and smash the hell out of gas (like what improviz said, use paddle shift to shift and pound the gas without blipping the throttle), the upshift are extremely rough and accompanied by awful clutch burn smell. (may be not on the 1st use, but launch it repeatedly in short time frame, you can smell the wonderful smell of burn clutch- although minor, you can still smell it).

Improviz

The problem with you is that whenever anyone disagrees with you, on any subject, you instantly get hostile and immediately make claims that the person has no experience with whatever it is you're debating.

When you tried debating me about statistics, you said I had no education in statistics.

False. I have had both statistics and stochastics.

Now you again act clairvoyant and claim that I've never driven an SMG car, when in fact I have driven both an SMG M3 and an SMG Z4, and have read a great deal about the mechanics and operation of this system.

Don't you ever learn? Time to get smacked again, krispy!

No, and you don't have to do it with an SMG system either; the computer blips the throttle. Are you sure you even have an M5??? Sure sounds like you don't...there is no throttle blipping involved on a BMW SMG system in a downshift.

Seriously, do you actually own one, or do you simply not understand how the BMW SMG system works?? This is pretty rudimentary....here is what Road & Track had to say when they tested it on the M3:
Road & Track article on M3 with SMG:
And then there was this, that Road & Track wrote about the SMG system in general:
Road & Track's overview of BMW's SMG II system
Lastly, there is Road & Track's review of the M5 itself, wherein they write the following:
Road & Track's BMW M5 article:
I again ask: do you even own an M5?? To claim that you have to blip the throttle with an SMG system shows that you do not possess even a cursory understanding of how this system operates.

We are not debating how smoothly the system shifts; we are debating the complexity of the operation of the system. Whether the system jerks a bit when it upshifts is not relevant.

I've launched many a manual at 1,600 rpm, and while it may not be as fast, it's certainly not made any more difficult by the lower rpm. Road & Track called the system a "no-brainer". Launching a true manual requires more skill, as one must modulate clutch slip and wheelspin, whereas this system does it for you.

So, because it won't allow you to overrev (same as the E55, FYI), it's more difficult to drive??? Another strawman argument, even more irrelevant than the previous one. The fact that it, like the E55, will not allow you to select a lower gear than it should be in in no way makes it more complicated to operate.

I am now wondering if you own an E55, because its transmission cannot be downshifted into an overrev condition. Try shifting it into first going 90 sometime...won't let you do it.

E55_POWER

Yeah and it smells for over an hour, I thought something was wrong with my car.

krispykrme

The problem with you is that you don't have a clue about difference between M car and none m car.

It's more than stiffer suspension. Throw M5 suspension on the 525i still will not make it a world class handler.

If that were case, people can simply buy a base 550i, Super charge it and add M5 springs/shocks then there is no purpose of M5.

M5 has different frame from regular E60, different steering ratio and response (something you can't change), chassis tuning is also vastly different. At 4000 LB, the M5 handles much more like a 3 series instead of regular E60 for these reason alone. M5 chassis really mitigate weight much better than regular E60 chassis.

M-car exist more for handling rather than all out straight line performance. That's why you don't see a M7 out there. Because there is certain things that even BMW engineer can't overcome with huge mass and long wheel base.

Your biggest problem is that you simply have no clue as to what M car is. A good handling car is more than suspension setup. If that were the case, we all can deal away with suspension and have go cart setup and call it a day. Structure intergrity, shifting of mass, aero dynamics..... all play a role.

The simple fact is that with all the chassis tuning that M5 has, it was able to eliminate vast amount of bodyroll without use of ARS. Which regular E60 needs in order to match M5's body roll capability.

Things are not what you think it is.

If it is so easy to mod a regular BMW into a M, then M would not exist. Look at B5, that is a perfect example that even with so much mod going into it, it is still not as good handler as a M5.

Unlike the E55 which is much less different from regular E500 (save the power train, stiffer suspension, addition of manual mode, bigger brakes, tires and rims), the M5 is quiet different then regular E60.

Somthing you have no idea about either.

Improviz

The problem with you is you keep shooting yourself in the foot.

False. It has the same frame. A few components have been modified, but the basic frame is the same. There is a special thrust plate added to the front axle subframe, the rear axle subframe was strengthened a bit to account for the added power, and the side frames were modded a bit not for handling, but to make room for the wider wheels.

The rear axle is the same base design as is on the 5 and 7 series, with added reinforcements to handle the power.

Suspension is modified version of E60 suspension.

Aside from this, and a few other stiffer suspension components, servotronic steering is remapped, and of course the engine, yadda ya....

Source: Germancarfans.com

In other words, changes are the same from E60 to M5 as from E500 to E55, basically:

-different engine
-tweaked suspension
-strengthened driveline components
-different electronics for different engine
-different brakes
-more bells & whistles.

As to your contention that the E55 is the same as an E500: false. In addition to the handbuilt engine, the E55's chassis and braking systems have been redesigned by AMG, stronger stabilizers with 50% higher torsional rigidity are added, a different reinforced rear axle (like your M), etc...

Just keep digging, krispy...that hole is getting deeper and deeper....

krispykrme

Obviously your education has failed you completely.

One SMG on the Z4 is not really SMG developed by BMW. It is designed by italian and is a version of Alpha selespeed.


You are lieing about M3. Because the comment below gave it away.

This is by far the biggest joke that i have heard from you.

SMG does not blip the throttle for you except only under one condition, it blips (and at time complete ignore throttle input) when it downshift as it designed as an idiot preventive measure.

During the upshift, you as driver has to learn to time the throttle as SMG will not do it for you.


I guess you can't read or haven't driven a car before. Go take a reading class before you make a fool out of yourself.

Or you never upshift in your car. I have said it very clear. SMG does not blip throttle or intervene throttle input unless your are downshifting.

So i guess we have now determined that in improviz driving, there is no need to upshift.

It's not simple as that. Stop magazine test driving.

It feels like I am talking to a complete idiot.

With true manual, you can control the clutch (you can partially release it, complete release it...), you don't have that luxury with SMG. It is either fully engaged or fully released.

In other words, with LC on SMG you can't control the cluch slip nor wheelspin, BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO CONTROL OVER THE DAMN CLUTCH RELEASE!!!!


You are such a fool. Take a reading class of something.

I was comparing SMG intervention as compare to a pure manual. What hell does E55's automatic has to do with this? NOTHING!!!!

SMG due to its design to intervene during downshift makes it harder to drive better than manual. Because you can't have access to all gears if SMG decide that you will over rev, nor you have instaneous access either because it need to check.

E55 does not have this damn issue, because like a true automatic it will always pick the best gear for corresponding speed. In addition, with fat torque curve and much narrower powerband, there really is not a huge requirement for you to be in so called correct gear as do the M5. Most likely as long as you are above 2500 RPM on the E55, you are already in E55's massive torque band.

M5's rev range is far wider than E55. Selection of proper gear in the M5 is a key in order to get most out of it. Where you can let the automatic E55 do its thing as long as you don't dip below 2500 RPM, you can't do that on the M5, because you have just taken yourself out of M5's power band.

Again, take a reading class or better yet go take a driver ed class.

Who is talking about downshifting on the E55?? You are. If you don't bother to read nor have the experience driving a car with wide top end power and manual gearbox, just keep your mouth shut.

The fact of matter is.

1. SMG does not blip unless it is downshift (which I damn mentioned even before your post from road and track). And the reason why is blips is not to make the shift smoother, but as a protection measure to prevent idiots from killing the engine.

2. Launch a manual does not require more skill, it in effect give you as driver more control. Where SMG took that away from you. This is not a good thing. SMG may be idiotic easy to launch, but it does not prevent you to spin your tire in total waste. SMG does not prevent tire from spinning!!!!

I feel i just waste time in discussing with a magazine racer.

absent

Well,at least in my personal experience (since 1976 exclusively manual until 1998)I am most comfortable with manual,then Automatic and last SMG which I'm still learning to fully master.
And I'm not a novice,did rallying in early 80's (2 seasons for FIAT,driving a 131 Mirafiori Abarth)but have to admit,SMG is not that easy.
Anybody who thinks otherwise,try the car.
Remember though,not just quick going,be smooth with it too...

krispykrme

Idiot will always be an idiot.

M5's front is made of pure aluminum structure, while regular E60 uses steel structure along with some aluminum. What else would you expect BMW to keep the weight distribution from getting out of whack with a big V10 in the front?

Using your own source to spank you. Taken directly from your own link "The german car fans site".

"the suspension and its electronic assistants have been either exclusively developed for the new M5, undergone extensive modifications or adapted to the special M performance. For example, the M5’s running gear is by no means a lowered 5 Series suspension. Instead, it is an optimised design created from scratch"

Next time you want to post something to support yourself, perhaps read into it further.

M5 retains the basic suspension geometry of basic E60, but it was desgined complete fron scatch for M5 use. M5 suspension is made up more much more aluminum than regular E60.

Don't think this is the case with E55, which I belive comes with stiffer suspension setting, not a whole new design with different material

E55's engine is hand assembled but not hand build. It started out as basic E500 SOHC V8 that AMG stroked, reassembled, and added a super charger on it.

AMG did not redesign the SBC, brakes, but did recalibrate it and upgrade some components.

Also i think i did mention that the powertrain was different. Again, you don't bother to read.

All of the modification done on the E55 can be duplicate with aftermarket part, in which you can't do that on the M5 onto any E60.

Stroke and super charger can be done with the E500 with Kleeman. Brakes can be upgraded, torsion stiffness can be increased.

But can you do that to a 550i and make it into a M5? NO!

Again, you don't bother to read.

Even though it states that rear axle is based on regular 5/7, but the construction is different, so are the materials. "through the utilisation of special elastokinematics and reinforcements in all relevant areas such as supports, links and joints. For example, rubber link joints have been replaced by rigid elements". Gee is this a simple change of springs/shocks?????

BTW, read the article one more time, it did mention that BMW was able to squeeze more weight off the front structure of the M5, guess what, I said that too.

Don't get into argument that you don't know anything about! How many time do i need to use your own souce to spank you back?

Falco

Help me out here...KK keeps talking about blipping the throttle on an upshift??? What?!?! You are going to lower RPM's so if you shift approriatly ZERO throttle input is necessary. Only time you would blip is if you clutch in, wait 3 seconds, shift and clutch out...but then if KK drives a manual like this no wonder he finds the SMG tough.... :p

Improviz

That's the funny thing about the moron...we started out talking about a heel-and-toe downshift, which is where you blip the throttle to rev match the engine, which prevents loss of control when driving at 10/10...he's so damn ignorant that he doesn't even know what a throttle blip is.

Improviz

Duh, moron....that's what I wrote. Let's recap:

WE were discussing the difference in complexities to operate the SMG system. YOU claimed that it is more difficult to operate the SMG than a manual transmission.. **I** wrote that the SMG system is easier to operate than performing a heel and toe downshift. YOU wrote that a heel and toe downshift is easier with a manual than with an SMG, *and* you wrote that you had to blip the throttle before shifting, when we were discussing downshifting.

Now, then, krispy, here's a new word for you: CONTEXT.

We were discussing heel-and-toe downshifting, remember? And the term "blip the throttle" is ALWAYS used in conjunction with heel-and-toe downshifting, because that's what you do: you blip the throttle to raise the revs to rev-match.

Here, I did your homework for you:
Google search for "blip the throttle"

More stuff for you not to read.

What you are describing is not blipping, it is something else.

Someone here need to learn to read, but it sure isn't me.

In fact, if you weren't such a careless reader and an idiot, you would see that I am not only aware of the fact that SMG blips on a downshift, I posted not one, but THREE direct quotes from Road & Track stating exactly that:

Road & Track article on M3 with SMG:
And then there was this, that Road & Track wrote about the SMG system in general:
Road & Track's overview of BMW's SMG II system
Lastly, there is Road & Track's review of the M5 itself, wherein they write the following:
Road & Track's BMW M5 article:
See that, dip****? ALL THREE of them state it's when the car is downshifting, which I posted for a reason: that is what I was discussing: a heel and toe downshift.

I know it's hard for you, but for once, why not try to debate what I'm actually debating?

Dense, dense, dense.

Only because you're too fvking stupid to comprehend what I write.

No, and you don't have to, BECAUSE THE COMPUTER DOES IT FOR YOU:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....0&print_page=y
From another article:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....&page_number=2
No, but you might....because, again, what we were debating was the complexity of SMG as compared to an automatic. You erected a strawman argument, stating that the fact that the M5's SMG is idiot-proof and will not allow you to downshift into the improper gear and blow the engine makes it more difficult to drive. Bull****. Utter, complete bull****, from an utter, complete idiot.

How does the car NOT allowing you to blow the fvking engine make it more difficult to drive? What a moronic assertion....so you'd prefer to have the ability to blow your engine? You think that this ability makes a car easier to drive?? I guess if by this you mean you can't drive it at all once you've blown the engine, you've got a point!

Sure it does, because the E55 AUTOMATIC DOES THE SAME THING: it will NOT ALLOW you to MANUALLY DOWNSHIFT the car into a gear that would cause an overrev.

So if this feature makes the SMG more difficult to drive, which it does not, then it would by extension ALSO MAKE THE E55 MORE DIFFICULT TO DRIVE.

This, my semiretarded rotund nemesis, is what is called as "logic" and "analogy". I know it's difficult for you to comprehend simple English, but please: try to keep up. Your ridiculous strawman argument is now blown back down into straw.

Oh, bull****...it determines what gear it is in and what gear it's capable of being in before you can even think about reacting. Absolute nonsense.

Honestly, you really don't read so good...must be the clogged arteries. I'm speaking here of using the E55 to MANUALLY DOWNSHIFT, get it? And when you do this, LIKE THE M5, IT WILL NOT ALLOW YOU TO OVERREV THE ENGINE.

Simple, really...but as you are too dense to read the direct quotes about blips on downshifts, why would I expect you to understand a simple analogy to slay your idiotic strawman argument?

As to your bogus claim that you need to blip the throttle during an upshift:
http://www.germancarfans.com/print.c...2.007/lang/engNow, what was it you stated again? Ah, yes...
No, and neither do you. Wrong again, idiot.

Improviz

Yes, you will. As usual when you are discussing something and get proven wrong, you change the argument:

Unfortunately, that's not what we're debating. What YOU WROTE was that the M5 had a DIFFERENT FRAME:

The hood and fenders are not part of the frame, Einstein.

Perhaps you missed the following section, entitled Suspension of the M5 while you were reading it thoroughly...it was a bit further down on the page, though, and given your penchant for selective reading, you probably missed it in your hurry to get to the donut store...

Now then, how does the above gel with what I wrote before?
Hmm...(looks back and forth at article and post)...looks like I was right, fatso.

Yawn....I believe that the quotes I provided above, both mine and the germancarfans.com material which was my source, show that what I wrote was accurate, your idiotic rant aside.

zumbalak

I agree with Impro in this point full heartedly.
I have been driving manual cars for the last 12 years or so, only owned an automatic once (current) but I still have a manual car as well.
It is damn hard to master a manual car, especially if you are driving in a track it is just damn hard, SMG is much more easier for track driving with matched downshifts, no chance of overreving in the downshift etc, or shifting to a wrong gear etc.

BTW I have driven m3 w/smg for about a month - did not own the car - and I though the SMG II that is in the m3 is just an amazing technology. Perfect shifts, excellent downshifts, it takes a day of learning curve which I have kinda understood how the process works for a smooth upshift or downshift. Meanwhile in a manual car, even upshifts can be tricky, it is much harder to be faster than the smg, either you will be powershifting or else be a pro in this. Downshifts with the blip of throttle are definitely much harder than the smg II, manual cars require a lot more involvement, and that is what the fun of the manual cars are. They are much harder to launch from a dead stop compared to LC.

I have never taken the m3 to the track so I don't know the experience, but smg owners seem to think it is the best choice for track compared to manual.

On the other hand, for street driving I do think both a manual and the smg are easy, and does not require too much difference in skill. In one you upshift with clutch gear combination, in the other with the paddles.

absent

In defense of KK:he probably misspoke about the "blipping of throttle during upshift"
He probably meant "slight lifting of throttle during upshift" to get a smooth gear change.

zumbalak

Why do you blip the throttle on the upshift? To overrev the engine?

zumbalak

That is what I was thinking also!

Who would blip the throttle in an upshift, that is just dumb.
I mean I have never heard of such a thing in my life. Does it makes sense?

How about this
Wroooom, I am in the first gear, lauching heavily, full throttle, and the redline comes, I blip the throttle so the engine will hit the redline and I will shift to second In any case how can I blip the throttle when my foot is floored ???