R. Range

MKB as a company probably wouldn't mislead its customers, but all it takes is one ignoramus who doesn't have enough training or experience to understand the difference between turbos and superchargers and misinformation results. It sounds like someone is confused and is saying things that would be true about their turbo enhancements but that clearly can't be true about a kompressor car (the reference to a wastegate is a dead giveaway, because as the guy from Evo said earlier, supercharger systems don't have wastegates, but an ECU can use the wastegates to vary the boost of a turbo system).

silversurfer

correct...the results that MKB/Wett. are publishing are in fact feasible from a high output turbocharged motor, but not a supercharged one. And, if you read the thread again, you will see that the tuners/vendors/average joes HAVE made this clear to you, you just haven't accepted it as the truth.

Vadim @ evosport

Gentlemen: I stand corrected.

There is a bypass valve hidden underneath the throttle body and not shown on factory drawings. Just found out when pulled off throttle body to get it bored out.

I will post pictures later on.

Marcus Frost

Vadim,

Please keep us posted, this could be a considerable development.

-m

R. Range

I'd love to be proven wrong, but I can't see how. Every s/c system I've ever seen has a bypass/blowoff valve, but I've never heard of anyone using one to increase performance. Its primary job is to vent the excess pressure created during quick transitions from WOT to closed throttle. If it weren't there, when you let off the gas at WOT and the throttle body closed with full boost in the intake tract, the pressure would have nowhere to go but back through the s/c--not good. Turbo systems have blowoff valves too for the same reason.

However, turbo systems also have wastegates, which provide an alternate path for exhaust gases to go around the turbine wheel, thus directly regulating the boost created. If the system had no wastegate, the increasing exhaust volume would make more boost, which would generate more exhaust, which would make more boost, until something really bad happened. Since s/c's don't use exhaust to spin the blower, this isn't a concern and the blower's speed (and therefore boost) is governed by the pulley sizes used to spin it.

The only way I can see that a bypass valve on our blowers could be used to increase power would be if the system was set up with a very, very conservative pressure to open the valve, so that the valve was not only functioning to relieve pressure in the closed throttle situation mentioned above, but was actually venting pressure at maximum boost under WOT and thereby limiting maximum boost. This strikes me as highly unlikely, but hey, it's MBZ we're talking about, so who knows.

E55 RUSS

Vadim...

Is it possible to get 540HP out of 55 Kompressor enigne without pullies or NOT???

stevebez

Only way is to get a 55 on a dyno and get a tester setup on the connector going to the valve ... see what info is being sent to the valve at WOT and we will have our answer...

It may be usefull to monitor and correlate boost pressure against valve info to see if it does relieve some pressure at > 0.8bar or WOT ... may also be usefull to see how much boost the s/c developes at WOT with the valve disconnected ... also see what ECU does then ...

Sounds pretty interesting though ...

FYI - a company here in UK (DMS automotive) claim ~+22hp with only ECU remap ... and 12-15lbft torque. Perhaps they are fiddling with this puppy - also makes sense if it remains closed for longer you will have higher HP (at high rpm) but not affecting torque that much.

>50hp sounds a little rich though ...

PS: Their SL55 kit to 580 HP "includes mechanical components" and is €1000 more expensive than the E55 kit.

All it says in brochure for E55 is "removal of VMAX and optimised for super unleaded fuel" - thats it. For around €2500 its a bargain for 544 hp if true.

Interesting point is they state the SL55 has compression ratio of 9.1 and the E55 9.0. I did not know this.

Rgds Steve.

E55 RUSS

MKB told ME they increse boost from 0.9 to 1.0...

I've asked them about what Vadim have told US...didnt get any replies since that...

Both Wetterauer and MKB get get around 540 HP without pullies...

Also I noticed Powerchip promises 511 HP with just a chip (+35HP)...

http://www.powerchipgroup.com/datash...13/Mer0172.pdf

Vadim @ evosport

First lets clarify one thing. Both E55 and SL55 make the same 500HP (+/- 3%). Both cars dyno in 420-430 RWHP range. 469 and 493 Hp numbers are purely marketing.

If we use 17% loss we are at 425 / 0.83 = 512HP.


So, lets get back to bypass valve. AMG lists three versions of 55K motor.

113.990 - in E
113.991 - in CL and S
113.992 - in SL

Gs cames out later so I do not have them listed in my version of WIS.

Up until now, my theory was that the differences were related to exhaust manifolds for different chassis. The pictures I posted above are for 991 version. For some reason the WIS will not display 990 version.

It is possible that bypass valve might only be on 990 version and not on 991 or 992.

Since it is used for torque control, it is possible to locate it's programming and modify it to a higher value, thus possibly keeping more boost. I spoke with Powerchip and we are going to look into it later this week.

Whether it is or not it will make a difference on stock-pulley car I do not know. Looking at stock data I do not see any boost drop under WOT. It is possibly could be used for traction control also.

As far as getting 20HP from tuning stock DME, I can and have seen it, so it is possible. 40HP plus would have to involve some kind of boost increase.

Here is picture of the valve, looking into where throttle body mounts.

Sneaky? Aint it

Grumpy666

Can't tell from the pic - is the valve downstream of the TB and does it feed into the IC discharge Y-pipe? If so, it's probably actuated when the blower pulley clutch is disengaged. This would provide a less-restrictive flow path in cruise mode. To me, it seems unlikely this would be for torque control when there are more sophisticated ways to do it via the ECU.

Vadim @ evosport

The valve reciculates the air, after it has been cooled, back into the kompressor, behind the throttle body.

The connector has eight wires, which tells me that there is a stepper motor involved, which means that the valve has a number of infinite positions, which means that is very likely used to control airflow, not just to divert it. That can be accomplished with a simple on/of vacuum switch.

MB uses the similar setup on 1.8L M271 to control TQ, very likely this is what it's purpose is on 55K.

BTW, C32 does not have this valve.

AWDman

Vadim does boost build linearly with rpm in the e55? maybe the s/c was set up to build boost agressively hence requiring bleed off as rpms rise??? is this how it makes that crazy torque down low????

rflow306

Vadim the first time I heard about this valve was several weeks ago at active here in miami. They were tuning an e55 with an asp pulley, the person tuning the car flew in from Europe to tune several cars for them. His first name was Ruben can't recall his last name but claimed that he could raise torque significally controlling that valve. The car picked up 47 hp and 97 foot pounds of torque at the wheels. Is this a normal torque increase with just a pulley?. After your post I'm wondering if maybe he was correct.

stevebez

The only function this valve could have is to reduce airflow into the S/C ... or perhaps on engine overrun does the S/C develop any back pressure ? This valve might prevent this back flow from damaging the throttle body ?

Guessing here - but on overrun with S/C spinning I can't see any back pressure being an issue ... it has to be to reduce airflow ... and power.

On the Kleeman throttle body - do they modify this unit too ?

What happens to diagnostics if the valve is disconnected ? Is it a sprung valve so it auto shuts on no signal ?

I bet this valve starts closing when heat gets too much ... or as a sneaky way to reduce top end power ... but why do that!!!!????

Rgds Steve.

E55 RUSS

Good thread guys...We are going to find out the truth soon...

Sound like its possible...to get more power without pullies...

That is why MKB said to ME "We know everything about AMG cars!!!"

MKB said if we remove Pre-Cat we will se another 15-20 HP...

So with thier stage1 and Cats removed I can make around 555-560HP...but their torgues figures are lower then the car with pullies 735...and how do Wetterauer gets 800 Togues...

E55 RUSS

Wetterauer confirmed...That I can test the car on Independent Dyno if I want too...to see if it make that power...it will be much faster...

They reprogram: ignitions, fuel and control valves!!!

Vadim @ evosport

Boost pretty much remains flat through the runs. As soon you go WOT, on a stock car it goes to 11.5 psi and stays flat until you back-off. My C32 which runs 19 psi it is also flat.

Typically pulley gets around 30HP/50TQ. So it is likely he has control over boost through bypass valve. I am still waiting on Powerchip's reply.

Do not know for sure. We are going to check some things out once throttle body comes back from machine shop tomorrow.

E55 RUSS

Keep US updated...

I got confimation from my Wetterauer dealer in Russia, that this chip would cost ME only 700 US dollars (with dicount) and I will have 544 HP on Dyno and if NOT they will refund ME the money ...+ 1 year warranty on all electronics in the car...

Looks like a good deal to ME...

Can reliablity be any different with just Chip and with pulllies and a chip???

Vadim @ evosport

[QUOTE] Looks like a good deal to ME...

Can reliablity be any different with just Chip and with pulllies and a chip???[QUOTE]

It is certanily a good price.

Which brand dynos are available in Moscow?

If you end up having your car dynoed, make sure to use the highest ocatne gas you can get and look for the HP/TQ curve to be smooth and void of any spikes or oscilations.

E55 RUSS

I think we have Maha's and others...

Do you think I should go for IT...

When my car arrives...I can only get EURO 98 octaine fuel...

Do you have any other news from your research and Powerchip???

Vadim @ evosport

We are going to be working with Powerchip in the next several weeks to see how we can work with a bypass valve.

E55 RUSS

Pls..dont forget to let US know your results...

Vadim @ evosport

But, Of course................

E55 RUSS

Helllooo...

Any results yet ???

E55_RUS

Hello Micha!
Do you remember me ?
I had M5 e39 the same colour as yours, once we have raced from Rublevka to 3 vokzala

I want to install this chip. what info do u have about it ?
join my icq..199758971

Sorry for my English/