baldmike73

Those Kleemann headers look so pretty! More like art than car parts!

Grumpy666

If you think about how a performance header works, you will realize the fallacy of this statement. A 4-into-3 header requires two of the cylinders to share the same space, which results in a restriction for both cylinders. If it doesn't result in a restiction, then the tubes are not properly sized for the engine. Either way is a design flaw. Also, a 4-into-3 design means that the two merged cylinders will have different fuel mixtures compared to the orher two cylinders, since the exhaust scavenging is different. If a 4-into-3 design produces more power than a properly-designed 4-into-1 header, then it's indicating that there are other problems that need to be addressed.


The SS headers are a Tri-Y design. Every properly-executed test that I've seen in the past has shown the Tri-Y design to be inferior to a properly-designed 4-into-1 header.

Are you familiar with a gentleman by the name of Ed Henneman? He runs a company called Headers By "Ed." He has been designing and building headers for over 40 years. Over the years he has proven by controlled tests that equal-length, 4-into-1 headers with the correct tube and collector sizes always produce the most power. Bar none. His web site is headersbyed.com. If you have an hour or so of spare time, he's an interesting read. He really rips into the car magazines, their personnel, and their testing methodologies.

Can Drive 55

What do you guys think of Supersprint Headers? I talked to them and I was told that all emmisions equipment remains on the car, making them street legal. I am not sure where the primary cats go, as the headers look pretty long to me. He estimated a 50 HP gain w/o any programing of the ECU. the cost from their web site is

MSRP $5,297.12
Your Price: $3,807.30

Fast55

The long equal length tubes should do wonders for torque, but there's no way they keep the primary cats from looking at the picture. No way they are legal, just like the Kleemann headers, at least in Ca.

UPDATE: Their site specifically says they are NOT legal, and not intended for street or highway use.

Can Drive 55

Thanks. I guess that puts that issue to rest.

Grumpy666

These are the headers I was referring to in my post above. They are a Tri-Y design (4-into-2-into-1). They are not equal length. From a performance perspective, I would rate them to be similar to Kleemann, but not as good as Evosport. In spite of what you've been told, they will not add 50 HP to your car. You may see about half of that - less if you don't mod.

vrus

Based on the pics I am looking at they dont look like Tri-Y headers.. There are 4 independent tubes running down into an input pipe at the collector. There are 4 distinct input pipes at the collector so they do seem to be equal length long tube headers.

The Tri-Y design would have 2 of the pipes merging before the collector.. Or am I completely wrong on this??

Fast55

I say the same thing. Grumpy's lookin' at something else, or I'm blind too. Tri-Y or not, I do agree that these guys are high if they think these alone will give 50HP.

Mr.Trump

PLEASE POST THE DYNO RESULTS...

PTE

:confused: I believe Grumpy666 is refering to the Renntech Headers. He is too bright to be that far off. Then again maybe his meds ran out. That happens to me every now & then ___PTE___

rflow306

I never said the 4-3 would make more power than a 4-1. I am saying from what I have seen the advantage of a 4-1 in power are negligible. I am also assuming that the pipe being joined into is a slightly larger diameter from the rest. The advantage of a 4-1 in power will only be significant when hp levels begin to increase and more exhaust flow is needed. I am only talking about shorty headers nothing else.
The dyno numbers with this set-up will be in-line with what we are seeing from klee and evo kits assuming the klee car has primary cats, be it aftermarket ones. I also think the 4-3 design should be the cheapest out of all of them by a decent margin.

Unless my eyes are deceiving me the supersprint headers I was referring to are a 4 into 1 conical slip on collector tapered down to 3 or 2.5 inches of outlet. They are pictured in the thread above.

GTA23109a

Making a sweeping statement like "a 4-3 makes less power than a 4-2-1", etc is completely pointless without knowing the firing order of the cylinders in question. A 4-3 header like the Renntech, can conceivebly make just as much if not MORE power through scavenging than a 4-2 or "tri-y" design if the shared tubes are on the correct firing order. This isn't new technology, it's been done for years and years. I'm not saying that that's the case for these Renntech headers, (I don't know the firing order on these motors) but it's something to keep in mind before people start throwing opinions around without backing them up with data.

Grumpy666

This is not correct. 4-into-1 headers have the biggest impact at torque peak, with a general increase in torque across the power band compared to other designs. Torque peak is the point in the RPM range where Volumetric Efficiency is the highest, not where the volume of exhaust flow is higher. An equal-length, 4-into-1 design enhances VE.


This may be right. When I first looked at the pic, I got the impression that the bottom two tubes were merged together and then joined with the top two tubes at the back of the assembly. Now, I'm not sure. It's hard to tell from that pic.


OK, this I am sure about. Yes, they are long-tube headers, but no, they are not equal length. Look at the length of the pipe from the left exhaust port compared to the length of the pipe from the right port - it's about a foot longer. All the tubes are different lengths. The impact of this is that, with all else being equal, each cylinder will have a different A/F ratio, which is not conducive to maximum power.

DJE55

I'm with Grumpy, those are not even close to equal length tubes. The rest is way over my head. I just need to see the dyno sheet for me to tell you which unit I'm putting on my car.

rflow306

I understand that, I was referring to their real world advantage over a 4-3. That advantage only becomes noticeable at higher horsepower levels.
When they dyno tomorrow and display the graph I think we will see similar gains to other vendors. We can then dissect the graph and come to further conclusions.

E55 RUSS

Hey guys...what do you think about these headers ???

Kleemann Style...

rflow306

Those are the headers that were made by an Australian member of our board. He had some issues with being able to deliver them. Do a search for headers and they should come up. I remember that e55baller at one time ordered them but never received and cancelled the order. I believe the primary tubes are slightly smaller then the klee but larger than the Evo's.

You also have to cut your exhaust and weld a new collector to match the headers. All in all very similar to kleeman. Actually if I'm not mistaken those headers were out before klee's or evo's, so the correct way to phrase it would be that the kleemann look like them. .

Rafal

They are nearly long enough to plug directly into the rear mufflers!

art@kronen

Post mod dyno.

vrus

Adam,

I have to say.. that isnt an impressive gain.. 40rwhp and 40rwtq with headers, ECU and pulleys?? My car jumped 30rwhp and over 30rwtq just with headers and exhaust.

The car should be seeing 70 - 90 rwhp and 80 - 90 rwtq increase with those 3 items. I would have MB check the car over and look for codes (especially the intercooler pump).. That car should be making alot more power than it is.

art@kronen

Vrus, you are right. I am suspecting that too. However, the physical test was so much better than the numbers. I dont know what's going on but i will try another place to dyno the car.

Rock

Do you know of any E55 with Rentech stage III that has ever seen the 11s in the 1/4 mile? I went to dragtimes.com and none are listed.

Grumpy666

The baseline numbers are at expected values for a stock car. If there's a problem, it's either with the post-mod dyno or the install (including programming).

rflow306

Don't know about stage three but I have seen a renn stage 1 pulley and ecu run 11.80's at 120 to 121. Look for member SGC, me and fikse were at the track that day. I have not seen a klee or evo stage 1 run that mph.

Adam needs to look over everything including the weather conditions inside the dyno room. I agree with victor the numbers seem very low to me.

Fikse

yep, here is one, just ecu and pulley:

http://www.dragtimes.com/Mercedes-Be...slip-7645.html

I personally saw this car run......