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*** $1,500 CF Airbox with HP benefits ***

 
Old 07-20-2006, 06:00 PM
  #101  
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2003 E55 AMG
Great minds think alike!!! What the heck.. If we are gonna do all this work, might as well go all the way... You know my saying: GO BIG OR GO HOME!

Originally Posted by catalystkid
I was going to ask if you could get a price for the front engine cover. I was looking at purchasing one and I wanted to make sure that the CF would match up. Please keep us posted on what the pricing is going to be for this.
Thanks again for all of the work.
Renntech makes some nice products.. No doubt about it.. prices are just a little too sky high.. that's all.

The minute you step into the E55 you'll love it!! And the mods will be here waiting for you!

Originally Posted by blackbenzz
Cool, just one problem. I already bought the renntech c/f one I may be stepping up to play with the big boys soon and purchase a 211 E55 and if I do I'll be buying your intake.
LOL...

No sweat Dave! I'm not worried about it. I know you're good for it.. Besides, I know where you live now!

BTW, If you want to drive up, come on up! I'll show you around T.O. and we can go for a nice steak dinner! (I pick the wine though)

Originally Posted by Rock
Vic, if the wire transfer does not work this time, I will drive the money to your house.
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Old 07-21-2006, 10:09 AM
  #102  
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2003 E55 AMG
Here are some pics of the CF. This is what they sent me for now to show the quality and give you an idea of what the finished product would look like.

The third picture (air tube with 2 rubber joints on it) will be the idea behind what I am going to have built for our air tubes. We will be using the rubber piece with the accordian bands in it. Not sure if that flex joint will be at the top of the tube (connecting to airbox) or in the middle of the air tube separating it in half.

We need to put something like that in there so that there is flex available. If we can hide it, it might go at the top and we may make the engine cover a bit bigger to completely hide the front of the engine bay. Still working that out..

Let me know what you guys think.






Last edited by vrus; 07-21-2006 at 11:48 AM.
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Old 07-21-2006, 10:12 AM
  #103  
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06' E55
Looks good, I am ready.
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Old 07-21-2006, 10:18 AM
  #104  
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2003 E55 & 2014 GL550
What do I think???? I've got friggin wood!!!

Looks great....press on forward .

Still kinda lost as to what insulation material we could use as you mentioned earlier this week. You probably would be the master on that issue.

I am surfing though....trying to see what ricers are up to buy not finding anything.
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Old 07-21-2006, 10:27 AM
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'09 911 C4S
Affirmative!

That's a go
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Old 07-21-2006, 10:53 AM
  #106  
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I think that's exactly what Vic is trying to accomplish here, two layers of CF with the insulation in between
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Old 07-21-2006, 11:06 AM
  #107  
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No longer stock '06 E55, A3 3.2 Quattro, LRD4 HSE, R107 280SL
That is really great looking work ... the piping is perfect...!
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Old 07-21-2006, 11:15 AM
  #108  
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04 E55
Git r done...looks beautiful
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Old 07-21-2006, 11:19 AM
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12' C63 P31, 06' Supercharged Range, 08' BMW 550i
Just for clarification, will the proposed CF airbox look like the RT airbox? I guess what I'm really asking is, will the new airbox do away with the y-splitter connecting tubes?



One thing I don't understand is this: Most all of us will still have the same 74mm TB. How does making the airbox bigger make more power if we are confined to making that air pass through the same 74mm TB? This question is not directed at this the proposed airbox, it is a general question about upgraded airboxes in general on our cars.

Last edited by dragonAMG; 07-21-2006 at 11:33 AM.
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Old 07-21-2006, 11:29 AM
  #110  
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2003 E55 AMG
Yup.. Like Kev said below, if you read a couple of posts back I said I wanted to create a "Thermos" design sandwiching a thermal reflectant in between 2 layers of CF.

The CF guys told me its overkill, but that's what I am all about... OVERKILL Baby!

I am trying to find the best solution (read that as thinnest, lightest) for material to use.

I think the header wrap material might be a good idea, but they sell that in 2in strips.. I need sheets of something that these guys can cut to fit and then insert in between the 2 layers.

Originally Posted by Rafal
Have you considered a double skinnned air intake tube design, with insulation sandwitched between two C/F walls?
Well.. The first order of business is to test the Renntech box and see if it really works or not. Once I've tested it, then we'll know better which direction to go in..

but.. the general idea was to make a box which had all smooth CF bends going right into the TB. I dont particularly like the Renntech design at the back because they have squared off the pipes. My idea was to make round tubes leading out of the airboxes, converging them just before the TB and then using a small piece of silicon adapter to join it to the TB.

So, picture the Y-pipe, and the 2 black rubber pieces that connect the Y-pipe to the airbox being replace with a tube of CF going right from airbox outlet to TB inlet.

Originally Posted by dragonAMG
Just for clarification, will the proposed CF airbox look like the RT airbox? I guess what I'm really asking is, will the new airbox do away with the y-splitter connecting tubes?
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Old 07-21-2006, 11:34 AM
  #111  
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No longer stock '06 E55, A3 3.2 Quattro, LRD4 HSE, R107 280SL
I was watching the golf leader board and dreaming of an alternative career when I thought of putting a twist type profile inside the TB and or the air tubes (e.g. like rifling in the barrel of a gun) might this aid air flow at all in the TB or air tubes - is there some venturi effect and benefit to be derived from this ?

Ill check wikipedia if they have any thing... but the enginers in fluid dynamics on the board should have teh answer a little quicker I think !!!1

Last edited by stevebez; 07-21-2006 at 11:37 AM.
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Old 07-21-2006, 11:35 AM
  #112  
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Originally Posted by vrus
Yup.. Like Kev said below, if you read a couple of posts back I said I wanted to create a "Thermos" design sandwiching a thermal reflectant in between 2 layers of CF.
Wow... that would be sweet. If this is the direction you are going with these... I'm going to get in on it. Because I can see that helping to shield the heat... in theory at least.
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Old 07-21-2006, 11:38 AM
  #113  
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No longer stock '06 E55, A3 3.2 Quattro, LRD4 HSE, R107 280SL
Is that picture of the RT box - is it a cover or a one piece air box air pipe kit ?
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Old 07-21-2006, 11:47 AM
  #114  
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2003 E55 AMG
Those types of things have been debated back and forth so much that its hard to tell.. I think on an NA motor those type of venturi stacks with the heli coils in them apparantly help airflow.

On an FI motor I really dont think it means much..

I will let the real engineers step up and answer though.

Originally Posted by stevebez
I was watching the golf leader board and dreaming of an alternative career when I thought of putting a twist type profile inside the TB and or the air tubes (e.g. like rifling in the barrel of a gun) might this aid air flow at all in the TB or air tubes - is there some venturi effect and benefit to be derived from this ?

Ill check wikipedia if they have any thing... but the enginers in fluid dynamics on the board should have teh answer a little quicker I think !!!1
If you are thinking about joining, please do it soon/quick.. Once I pay for the mold and we get going, its gonna be closed off.. Anyone in on it will get the pricing we layed out. Everyone else will go in a secondary run of the product and the pricing will be higher. That's what I negotiated with the vendor so that they would take our run of 23 pieces instead of their usual 50 pieces minimum.

Originally Posted by dragonAMG
Wow... that would be sweet. If this is the direction you are going with these... I'm going to get in on it. Because I can see that helping to shield the heat... in theory at least.
It's the full RT Carbon Fiber air box kit. Mine is coming, so once I receive it I am gonna take it apart and take a bunch of pics so everyone can see what it is all about.

Originally Posted by stevebez
Is that picture of the RT box - is it a cover or a one piece air box air pipe kit ?
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Old 07-21-2006, 11:52 AM
  #115  
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Originally Posted by vrus
I dont particularly like the Renntech design at the back because they have squared off the pipes. My idea was to make round tubes leading out of the airboxes, converging them just before the TB and then using a small piece of silicon adapter to join it to the TB.

So, picture the Y-pipe, and the 2 black rubber pieces that connect the Y-pipe to the airbox being replace with a tube of CF going right from airbox outlet to TB inlet.
I agree, showing the pipes would be sportier. the Renntech box doesn't show off increased engineering. Might as well show off the hard work in a COOL way.
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Old 07-21-2006, 12:00 PM
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No longer stock '06 E55, A3 3.2 Quattro, LRD4 HSE, R107 280SL
http://www.spiralmax.com/

I know I know its more than likely baloney - but scientifically guys is there any substance to this --- geez they even got ones you stick on the end of your exhaust tips!!!!
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Old 07-21-2006, 12:00 PM
  #117  
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2003 E55 AMG
Just to give you guys a clearer picture and to put things in perspective for you.. The pic below is of an A.R.T. Tuning engine..

See those 2 short Carbon Fiber pieces that run between the Y-pipe and the airbox??? They look mighty nice and good quality too... Oh yeah.. those puppies are $900 from what I remember!! $900!!!!!!!

We are gonna build the entire airbox assembly for approx $1500 (still not 100% firm yet) for the first run.

Once we get closer to the mold I'll have a good idea of what their pricing will be for the air tubes and the front engine cover.

Pricing will jump considerably (for airbox assembly) after we are done with the initial run if anyone wants to buy one later.
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Old 07-21-2006, 12:05 PM
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04 E55
I think it would be in your shops best interest to keep the price as low as possible for future sales...
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Old 07-21-2006, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by stevebez
I was watching the golf leader board and dreaming of an alternative career when I thought of putting a twist type profile inside the TB and or the air tubes (e.g. like rifling in the barrel of a gun) might this aid air flow at all in the TB or air tubes - is there some venturi effect and benefit to be derived from this ?
No. Rifling in a gun barrel works because the bullet is one piece of mass. The gun barrel ridges contacting the edges of the bullet cause it rotate around it's longitudinal axis. A spinning bullet is more stable after it leaves the gun. Any non-smoothness you add to the the walls in a tube flowing air will only affect the air that is in contact with the tube wall. This will cause that air to become turbulent, which will then affect the laminar flow characteristics of the air close to it. In general, flow will be impeded near the wall - and it will heat up due to the turbulence.
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Old 07-21-2006, 12:09 PM
  #120  
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2003 E55 AMG
I dont think they can. I negotiated that the price HAS to be in that neighbourhood for us AND to let us run only 20 or so pieces instead of 50.

Because I am paying to make the mold, paying for part of the tooling, and paying for all the R&D pieces, they are willing to play ball. At the end, I've just helped them build a complete CF engine compartment for a car and covered their startup costs.

I guess they were willing to take the hit on the initial run.. Dont know what the pricing will be after, and I am not concerning myself with that.. I only care about taking care of the R&D group right now. We'll deal with that later if others are interested.

Originally Posted by vader
I think it would be in your shops best interest to keep the price as low as possible for future sales...
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Old 07-21-2006, 12:26 PM
  #121  
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Originally Posted by Grumpy666
No. Rifling in a gun barrel works because the bullet is one piece of mass. The gun barrel ridges contacting the edges of the bullet cause it rotate around it's longitudinal axis. A spinning bullet is more stable after it leaves the gun. Any non-smoothness you add to the the walls in a tube flowing air will only affect the air that is in contact with the tube wall. This will cause that air to become turbulent, which will then affect the laminar flow characteristics of the air close to it. In general, flow will be impeded near the wall - and it will heat up due to the turbulence.
What would be the result of doing a situation like the Tornado between the TB inlet and the Y outlet? Instead of riffling the Y tube put fins to make the whole air slug uniformly spin into the TB. I don't know if those things really work. Is that concept pointless because the SC kind of does that on a large scale?
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Old 07-21-2006, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by stevebez
http://www.spiralmax.com/

I know I know its more than likely baloney - but scientifically guys is there any substance to this --- geez they even got ones you stick on the end of your exhaust tips!!!!
I've got some swamp land in Kansas for sale . . .

This company operates off the principle associated with P.T. Barnum - there's a sucker born every minute.
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Old 07-21-2006, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by vrus
I dont think they can. I negotiated that the price HAS to be in that neighbourhood for us AND to let us run only 20 or so pieces instead of 50.

Because I am paying to make the mold, paying for part of the tooling, and paying for all the R&D pieces, they are willing to play ball. At the end, I've just helped them build a complete CF engine compartment for a car and covered their startup costs.

I guess they were willing to take the hit on the initial run.. Dont know what the pricing will be after, and I am not concerning myself with that.. I only care about taking care of the R&D group right now. We'll deal with that later if others are interested.
Being that you already achieved the targeted R&D fund pool, perhaps you should approach the pricing differently with the builder. Rather than limit yourself and the R&D participants to a run of 23, you should negotiate pricing tiers with the vendor:

example ---
20-30 - $1,500
30-40 - $1,300
40-50 - $1,100
50+ - $1,000

This would obviously benefit everyone by globally reducing the costs and making everyone happy. Unless of course your intention is to profit from the 2nd and/or future runs of the airboxes. If that is the case, all 23 R&D participants should profit from future runs as well. Just some food for thought...
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Old 07-21-2006, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by dsc
What would be the result of doing a situation like the Tornado between the TB inlet and the Y outlet? Instead of riffling the Y tube put fins to make the whole air slug uniformly spin into the TB. I don't know if those things really work. Is that concept pointless because the SC kind of does that on a large scale?
Anything you do to disrrupt the flow of air prior to its entering the combustion chamber is counter productive. This is especially true with an EFI engine, which flows air, not a mixture of fuel and air. An item like the Tornado located between a carburator and intake manifold has some merit, but in concept only. Keeping a fuel mixture swirling will help keep the fuel atomized, but, by the time the mixture reaches the intake valve, how much swirl do you think is left?

Most modern engines have a small, heart-shaped combustion chambers with large squish areas. When the piston reaches TDC on the compression stroke, the air trapped between the piston and head in the squish area is rapidly forced into the combustion chamber, where the heart shape causes it to swirl violently. This design is orders of magnitude more effective at atomizing the fuel mixture than any gadget you add upstream.
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Old 07-21-2006, 01:02 PM
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Well... Here is a quick breakdown:

1) $3795 spent for Renntech air box to test. Once testing is complete, it will be sold off... Hopefully eBay will be kind and I'll recoup most of the money.

$3795 * 1.12 = $4250 CDN
$4250 CDN * (6% duties + 14% Taxes) = $5100CDN landed (thats paid for and out of my account already)

2) $2500 needed for mold ($2500 * 1.12 = $2800CDN)

That's $7900CDN total and we havent even started yet. Tooling costs have not been forwarded to me yet so I dont know how much I am responsible for.

19 people paid * $200 = $3800 * 1.12 = $4256CDN

I am already footing almost half the R&D costs so far myself. Not to mention that the $200 that the group put up is going towards the PURCHASE PRICE, which means I have to poney up the $4256CDN when it comes time to ship these people their parts.

So, really all I did was take their deposits so that I know they are willing to buy. How am I going to recoup the remaining $4,000++ ?? No, I am not doing this to make money.. Its a fun project.. But, I sure dont want to lose money either. In the end, I have to make sure I am at least covered so I can make back my money.. I want to be out $1500 only which is the purchase price of the product.


Originally Posted by dragonAMG
Being that you already achieved the targeted R&D fund pool, perhaps you should approach the pricing differently with the builder. Rather than limit yourself and the R&D participants to a run of 23, you should negotiate pricing tiers with the vendor:

example ---
20-30 - $1,500
30-40 - $1,300
40-50 - $1,100
50+ - $1,000

This would obviously benefit everyone by globally reducing the costs and making everyone happy. Unless of course your intention is to profit from the 2nd and/or future runs of the airboxes. If that is the case, all 23 R&D participants should profit from future runs as well. Just some food for thought...
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