Jrocket

Has anybody tried spraying the IC heat exchanger with Nitrous or Co2? Using a spray bar kit from NOS or similar? I know it works on turbo FMIC cars,but havent seen or read any info on our cars.

rflow306

I can't remember which member tried this but they never posted their results. I don't know how good that would work on the heat exchanger. It certainly couldn't hurt as long as it doesn't accidentally enter the intake track.

Jrocket

The only reason I can think of why it wouldnt work is that the steps in which the transfer of heat is taken.It might take too long for the water that is cooled to get into the IC to be effective?Not like the air to air,where its next step is directly into the intake/cylider itself.Too be really effective I would think you will have to spray it before the water box,as much as possible during the burnout and the entire pass as well,no? Not too mention a higher volume IC water pump would be needed.

If a small amount of NOS got into the intake it might not hurt as long as it didnt create a lean condition,co2 would be very bad though.I think I can put together a spray bar system with the parts I have.

rflow306

My thoughts exactly but I think its worth trying. On the dyno with the fan blowing and ic pump circulating while the car was off would definitely yield improvements.

chiromikey

i believe you're supposed to spray preemptive...something like a 5 second shot before your run and i wouldn't be surprised if spray during the run was needed also. the claims are all above 50hp at the wheels but i'd rather see some real world info from our 55 brethren before i believe that. there may be a reason nobody is doing this (like it doesn't work as promised) but if the claims are true, $$/hp ratio is fantastic.

2MANYCARS

I am going to give it a try on mine after my trip to Hong Kong, I will post results then.

Jrocket

I have read as low as no gain and up as much as 42hp gains on FMIC cars.Putting it on a full throttle switch would be the easiest,but I think I would rather run a old style push button.I think for best results it should be sprayed for 3-5 seconds before the water box then constantly from the start to atleast 1000'-1200 mark.Anything past that would be a waste,the power is made and the et/mph arent going to improve from there on.Seems like a good way to keep heat soak down and get a few more runs in for the event.Down fall is NOS isnt that cheap and I would assume your going to use quite a bit if making a pass if you were too follow my way.Co2 is cheaper but would be a pain if any particles got into the intake.

I think we would need to spray it more,cause we are trying to rapid cool water not air.Betting it would be a complete different deal there.

Vadim @ FD

A proper way to do it is to add more capacity to the intercooler cooling system. This is what Intercooler Cooling Upgrade from evosport does.

Jrocket

Not sure I'd call it the proper way but I do agree its the best and most effective way.Problem is some dealers wont accept the IC mods and its far too much of a hassle to take off everytime I need to take it in for service.So a spary bar is the alternate idea,easy on and off.As long as the results are good enough.

Is MBLN a mod friendly service center?If so I might have to switch dealers.

Vadim @ FD

Next time you need service let me know. I will take care of you.

Jrocket

If Im reading between the lines correctly here,then you will have a new customer.I'll even make the long drive down there to do so.

Grumpy666

Listen to Vadim. I doubt that spraying the heat exchanger would make a measureable difference in the water temperature. Think of it from a mass perspective. It works on a FMIC because of the low mass of the air passing through it, and the fact that you're directly affecting the intake air temperature.

With the heat exchanger, you're trying to lower the the temperature of water, which has a much higher mass. Plus, the water won't be in contact to the sprayed area long enough to be cooled very much. Plus, it's an indirect effect - even if you manage to cool it a few degrees, how much will that affect the air in the IC? Probably not enough to measure.

You need to change the incoming air charge 10's of degrees to have an impact. The best way to do this in your car is to increase the capacity of the IC cooling system and/or its efficiency (eg, a separate system with its own fan). But hey, don't let me deter you if you're really motivated. If you decide to proceed, I would suggest devising a controlled methodology for measuring the IAT for testing.

Or, you could save yourself a lot of work and just send me a check for what this would have cost you.

Jrocket

Grump you basically said what I was assuming but in a more drawn out technical answer.Im not sure the cooling could be done fast enough or in a large enough scale,unlike the air to air does.


Now are you familiar with a good old fashioned cool can for fuel lines?Now picture making the IC circuit a seperate system and have a larger can with tubing coiled up through the inside,then fill the tank with dry ice solution when your doing your drag racing.You would have the hot water from the IC going to the exchanger,then to the pump,then through the coiled tank,then back into the IC.follow me there? Make a 1" thicker heat exchanger(replacing the stock one),change out the pump to a higher volume unit and use the cool can idea.Only problem is room.theres not enough for a good sized cool can to be mounted,another thing is getting a small purge tank or valve high enough to get the air out of the system completely.

Any ideas of how hot a seperate system gets,peak coolant temps?Does it reach boiling point,where a pressurized cap is needed.I doubt it but not really sure?

Grumpy666

You've pretty much answered your own question - there's no room to do a cool-can-type design that would be effective - it would have to be big. IMO, you're whacking on a comatose horse. He's not quite dead, and not worth the effort to revive. The IC system is a poor design. You could try the stuff you mentioned, but the bang for the buck is just not there. The only effective solution is the SLR-style ICs, but now you're talking big money. Especially if you go the tuner route. Sounds like another project for Victor - he seems to be slacking a little lately.

WRT your coolant temperature question, a separate system would probably get warm enough for you to comfortably wash your hands. Recall the mass delta between air and water. Think about this: you can stick your hand in the steam coming from a tea kettle. Would you stick your hand in the water producing the steam? They're both the same temperature. With the IC, there's heat transfer from air to water, but the heat content of the air won't have a big impact on the water temperature.

jparch

grumpy , you are great source of info ! I was talking to vrus about another interesting idea about a coating that can be applied to the heat exchanger. i did not get into the details, but a company that does ceramic heat coatings for headers, etc, claims they a have a coating that can be applied to intercoolers that would aid the transfer of heat up to 20% (their claim not mine). It may be interesting to try considering the cost is not too high. I have a defective fluid pump and am considering coating the factory cooler while the pump is being changed under warranty

Jrocket

Wishful thinking I guess.Arent the SLR IC's taller,not sure how much hood clearnace there is for that? Do you think coolant or straight water for a seperate IC system?Seeing how the temps dont get that high correct.I'm already in the process of making a larger exchanger to replace the stock one outright.Its the room for a cool can that has me stumped,I know it can be done.Might not be the prettiest deal but it can be done.My goal is too make more power but not get into changing the boost or ecu.

jparch

have you considered getting an plastic injection-molding company to fabicated something along the lines of a washer fluid tank in plastic? that way if there is an area under the hood or bumper that has a "weird shape" you are able to construct a resevoir to maximize the volume and will fit nicely. just another idea.......

ChicagoX

What about one of the DEI bulb CRY02 units in each surge tank?

Or in the EvoSport upgrade coolant reservoir?

Jrocket

Not familiar with the DEI bulb deal.The Evo tank is too small,you would have to refill every run.


I did,but I have more skills welding aluminum or stainless than connections to injection molding.If it did work the injection molding would make a nice touch in the end.

I did however think of using the actuall washer fluid resevoir itself,but it seems to be an odd shape and location.I turned a washer resevoir into a race gas container for one of my street racing cheater nitrous units one time.Best system I ever made,bottle hid under the dash and race gas in the washer bottle.people used to even lean on the washer unit snooping under the hood...LOL

ChicagoX

The DEI bulb could fit inside the coolant tank.

http://designengineering.com/products.asp?m=sp&pid=4

It is cooled by Co2. No refill, besides the Co2 tank.

Small package, small lines, and Co2 is cheap.

Grumpy666

In your climate, water with a surfactant (water wetter) would work best.

I don't want to come off sounding like a Gloomy Gus, but with your system, making changes to the IC water system is not going to do much for adding power. At best, it will help minimize power loss due to elevated IAT and add consistancy to the power output. It takes about a 10 degree reduction in IAT to increase HP output about 1%. But how much colder does the water need to be to lower the air temperature 10 degrees? Probably more than 10 degrees.

If lower IAT is your goal, you need to make changes that directly affect air temperature. The previously mentioned DEI bulb is an example, but there's precious little space to intsall them (you would need two). Another example is methanol/water injection - this would be my choice. The current systems are fairly sophisticated and offer good bang for the buck. But, to take full advantage of them would require ECU programming - WOT spark/fuel table tweaks. One advantage it offers is you could run lower octane gas, which would help offset the cost.

Jrocket

All opinions taken here,only way to see both sides of an idea sometimes.I guess my goal is more of trying to keep the heat soak down.Sitting and waiting to cool the car is a pain.If it just kept the IAT's more consistant,that would be fine with me.First thing is too get this larger exchanger built and replace the stock pump with the higher volume one.That brings another question up.How could you figure how much volume is too little or too much.I dont want the water circulating so fast that it doesnt have a chance to cool before it gets pushed through the exchanger?No mathmatical way to identify the answer there but trial and error I suppose?

Vadim @ FD

Between











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lines.




Yes, I agree.

Vadim @ FD

Thanks, Grump!!!

I find that you and I are on the same page more and more often. I just do not have a lot of time as much to get into physics, while you do.

Thank you for clarifications.

csumt76

Scratch that. That is a waste of time.

Isolate the intercooler circuit from the rest of the coolant circuit. Add a resevoir, and fill it with water, ice, and water wetter. The ice is going to melt obviously due to the heat of the intake charge. You will need an easily accesible drain, then you can add more ice when needed. The ice will be used on the track. On the street, the water/water wetter mix will dissipate heat better than the 50/50 engine coolant. Of course the only real way to take advantage of the decreased intake air temperatures is to tune the engine accordingly. Depending on how much drop you see, you would be able to add a few degrees timing. Add some 104 gas and you would be good to go. Then put the spray on top of that. Or better yet, remove the supercharger. Build a sheet metal intake and put a single turbo on it.