Hey guys,

It's been a LONG time since I surfed the pages of this site. Glad to see the passion is greater than ever.

A little over a year ago I was playing around with my 05' E55 at the local road course and discovered (as some of you have) that the brakes are very prone to overheating and failure when driven in a road course environment. I've tried several go-go gadget fixes to duct air to the stoppers and was just wondering if any product(s) are on the market that might fix this?

Thanks,

Eric

200+ mph club

 

Have you tried the EvoSport rotors?

 

The rotor cracking is a function of heat. The heat is a function of using the brakes and the common solution is to duct air to the brake ducts ala most race cars.

I've tired garden hose, dryer hose, various plumbing supplies. These help extend the time before failure but are not real attractive nor as functional as ones might be if designed properly.

Thanks for the rotor update. Anyone know of a fix? No luck in the "211 Search" function.

 

Eric my Man!!!!!

The first guy that helped me start modifying my E55!!!! So good to see you back in action. I just cleared the first pm (from 2005) that you sent me last week.

Now, what was your question?

 

Rock man,

I remember you. Great looking ride there hoss. What's with the throttle body upgrade.

Shoot an email or call sometime to catch up. I started a road racing team and am doing the semi-pro/serious amateur thing full time: www.meyer-motorsports.com 317.752.9358

 

Meyer-motorsports.........WOW!!!!............ I'm impressed!!!

My TB.......well, that was the work of Victor and I'm sure you remember him. Victor has been helping us modify our E55's on the cheap. After adding his modified MB 80mm TB, my car is trapping at almost 125mph. Not bad for a 4200lbs. sled.

 

Eric,

Just water cool them. You'll need a reservoir, 3 gal at least. One or two Mercedes windshield washer pumps, hose sized suitable to pump barb. Copper or aluminum tube sized to hose (push on). Wire to power pump from brake lights. All you need to do is bend the tubing to direct water flow to the inner space (hollow core) of rotor, inside closest to axle and affix it to the spindle carrier (I drill and tap anchor clamps for this). Make necessary plumbing arrangements.

 

Hi there - another spec miata driver here. We have three driver and two cars so far.

Are you saying that it is overheating because the warning comes on? Did you feel any brake fade, spongy pads, poor braking, etc? Were you using stock pads or a race pads.

 

Yacht M,

A couple of Q's:

What do you use your water cooling system for/what are your experiences with it?

Can you offer pix?

Thnx

 

Hugh,

E55 and an SM---I have to think that 99% of the people on this forum wouldn't understand that the Spec Miata is funner than the E. What? Huh? (Don't comment on this everyone/anyone unless you have road raced a Spec Miata).

I've been using stock pads on stock rotors. I get about 4 laps at Road Atlanta until the warning idiot light comes on. About 6 laps on Road America. The car doesn't get tracked anymore as it's just a pain to deal with this.

There is no pedal fade I've ever detected as I understand the brakes are fly-by-wire and the fade would actually be catastrophic failure of the brakes (from other posts on this forum) and therefore you woulnd't feel it in the pedal (which isn't a big confidence builder) It's such a fun and well balanced car that I'd like to be able to flog it a little more with a greater sense of braking security (140 mph and no brakes into a bus stop = not good). Any ideas?

Even if you pull the fog lights out there is not a decent way to route large or even medium size air ducts. I was thinking that a very wide (the entire length of the front spoiler) and not very tall air scoop (4' wide by 2-3" tall?) to catch air and then this is ducted and reduced to about a 2" O.D. tubing to be able to route through/around the control arms and then have someone mock up a inlet port on the dust/rock covers (which I have removed).

My guess is that very few people are driving these cars in this way and are experiencing these symptoms which is why there is no solution.

Not familiar with water injection although I beleive this is an old IMSA/sports car trick of the 70's?????

SCCA or NASA or both or other?

 

The EvoSport rotors are suppose to dissipate heat quicker. They have both cross drilled and slotted, slotted resist cracking better. They are also vented properly unlike the stock rotors. For handle they may help a little, they weigh about 8 pounds less each. Two piece floating design.

Jangy tracks his car a lot. Maybe get some info from him.

E55 are brake by wire, you can’t feel fade.

 

Eric,
I don't need to tell ya that, our W211s are a little over weight to be much of a track car. However I am all for every AMG owner to, slide their pride and joy off the track once or twice. No better way to learn the limit. If you wish to continue to track your 55, you know a diet is in order and a good place to start is as dsc posted EVO sport rotors lighter and better heat dissipation ($2k) and some Porterfield pads may help too. I agree with you that the biggest benefit would be a mod to the backing plate/inner cover or total refab to allow for 2x2" air inlets and cut outs for water nozzle, that would be the best solution and there should be enough room for all that. Now the bad news take a few minutes to search "SBC" here, you will find some issues that may or may not have answers. Additionally I have no idea what triggers your brake alarm, is it caliper temp or the SBC unit temp? And what happens if you disregard the warning will the ECU and TCU take over? Who knows? I have read a post that claims that SBC changes the bias on the fly. It is clear to me that MB has given us a very complex system, that we know little about. Are your rotors blue after your runs? Anyway I used the water cooled brakes for 911s/930 cars that I would run in the Rocky Mountains of Colorado, the down hill legs made the water cooling a must have. I am still here so they worked great in spite of the crazy risk I was taking. It may take some trial to get the system setup volume and pressure wise for the water. I found that when you can just begin to see steam vapor in a hard braking situation coming from wheel that is as good as it gets for effective cooling and water conservation. And you are right it is an old trick I learned about it at a Miami GP race early 80s and at that time it was track specific in it's use. Pics sorry all my pics are in Colorado and don't beleive I have any of the front end anyway. Keep us posted on your progress especially if you fabricate new backing plates, ductwork and intakes.

BTW tell us your times Atlanta and America.

 

My '05 E500 brakes squeal like a stuck pig. Mercedes replaced the first set at 16K now I am at 29K.

I need another set rotors and pads, for the front. I just ordered a set of Porterfield Pads and drilled rotors.

They will also "cryo" treat the rotors.

I don't think I need the freeze treatment for the street, but for racing it may solve some of the heat problems.

This treatment has done wonders for other applications tools and metel equipment. This deep freeze of the parts is supposed to realign the molecules , like tempering a knife balde.

By the way ,can I use the old brake sensors?

 

From my understanding, cryo treatment does not help with cooling. The realignment of the crystalline structure is for making the material stronger and harder so in the rotor application it is to prevent it from cracking and maybe warping. I had done this many years ago when I was younger and naive. I used 300below.com

I was told by the dealer (parts department though) that you can reuse the sensors if the brake warning light has not came on. From changing my own pads, I believe that is true although my new pads came with new sensors.

For street, don't waste your money for the cryo. If anything get a zinc wash which will prevent rusting so you can keep the rotors looking pretty.

If you want a quiet brake system why are you going with the Porterfield? Unless you want the added brake efficacy when heated or are you completely out of faith on the dealer parts . The pads is about $450 versus dealer is about $275 for the E55 front.
http://www.speedtoys.biz/index.php?m...7435_7576_7581

I was also planning to get the Portefield because I was planning to take it to the track but after seeing the price, I decided to get the dealer part for the street and then later get a set of full race pads (PF1?) to swap in at the track. Don't get me wrong, I have used different Porterfield in other applications and do like them.

 

Hahaha. Driving the Spec Miata is so much fun on the track and being able to drive to the very limit at every turn and not worry about the car is great. Then dicing it up with someone takes it to a different level.

E55 makes everything so sophisticated and the brake system is the last place anyone of us wants to test any of our theory or take any chances. I partially thinks that the brake sensor is a warning with a great deal of safety margin. If you have race fluid and race pads, and the light comes on but you don't feel any brake fading, I am thinking all is good to go. Hahaha, I don't want to be the guy who test this out though, at least not yet!! However, I do not understand in dept what exactly brake by the wire means and it's mechanism and consequences.

Let us know if you solve any of this?

Thanks
Hugh

 

I'm not that familiar with the MB brake system and maybe I'm way off base but correct me if I'm wrong and I'm sure someone will. but the temp warning system on the brakes is done by the computer as it computes the temperature by the amount of pad applications, deceleration, and the amount of time (cool off time) in between applications right? There is no actual sensor that measures the temperature on these rotors from what I understand... Right? Wrong?
And if this is true then if you figured a way to keep the rotors cool the warning system still would come on at about the same time even though the rotors are fine right? Maybe the first step in the solution would be to find a way to actually measure heat the rotors get to rather than rely on what the computer computes and start from there.

just a thought

 

Heheh!! More and more road racing threads on the E. I also agree that the E is a well balanced and fun ride in the more open courses, especially with fat tires front and rear. What makes the braking an added challenge is the weight + power. I end up trying to maximize all straights, which means slamming on the brakes on corner entry.
I ususally get about 3-5 laps at Willow before the first warning comes on. It is red and says to continue, but be warned. I worried to begin with, but it really is a huge margin between that and brake slop. The fly by wire makes there NO feel whatsoever of fade, but I can tell you from experience that the fade is at lease a bit gradual. it isn't just GONE!!
I strongly recomend the porterfield pads. I am also going to be swapping out rotors, more for weight but hoping for better heat dissipation as well.
As for the ducting, I have been brainstorming with Lensolo about cutting some rectangular scoops into the airdam and route them to the inside of the rotors. He turned me onto a cool engineer cat that had a great idea as well. I will be buying a datalogger soon, so that we can actually monitor airflow and temps and see what configuration will work best and where to pull the air from.
I love the brakes on the E, but they simply do heat up too fast. Sure, a diet is in order, but there is no way to lose enough on these cars and keep them presentable while having a cure. There is also no way I will go to larger rotors, since I do not want to go to 19" rims.

 

Try some of this ducting, which are more durable
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/sceet.php
or
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/ceet.php

Jangy - how long after the brake warning light comes on did you feel fade? And have you driven it farther to where the brake was really compromise?

Health Services - You may be right. Could you test that theory please !! The sensor on the pad is probably to tell pad wear not temperature like other cars that has brake sensor but no brake temperature warning light.

Cheers
--Hugh

 

Actually I'm pretty sure that’s how the system works. I used to wrench and was a working shop foreman at a dealer for 14 years. I had to keep on top of technology at the time 1990-2004.

As for track time I just took the bike (Yamaha) to the track. Even then it was a couple years ago. Replacing a set of tires on every trip gets a little old after a while. I don't see how you guys do it with cars. I got a little gun shy after I ran off the track at 100 mph.

 

1. Good information to know.

2. This is why you need to buy a Spec-Miata!! Tires are cheap, parts are cheap, labor are easy, all safety equipment in place, take turns harder than the E55, dents/rub who cares, etc . . .