*** VRP Stage 2 Heads Buildup ***
01-18-2008, 08:20 AM
#252
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Also...I wanted to ask...Ussually with agressive Cams most of the tuners move TOP RPMS range higher to make more power...
I undertand that its not the case with E55 cause it low torgues engine but if we make such agressive Cams may be higher TOP Rpms with help increase like by 200-300 om TOP ??? It will be complicated task cause we would need to adjust TCU accordingly...but it might work...with this CAMS...they are made for HIGH RPMS !!!
I undertand that its not the case with E55 cause it low torgues engine but if we make such agressive Cams may be higher TOP Rpms with help increase like by 200-300 om TOP ??? It will be complicated task cause we would need to adjust TCU accordingly...but it might work...with this CAMS...they are made for HIGH RPMS !!!
01-18-2008, 11:53 AM
#253
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2003 E55 AMG
Rocket is going to do a 1/4 mile run and see what the outcome is. All the cams have been sold and no one has complained about lost power so I really dont know how to explain this.
We have 2 dynos that show power that we know of. There is ZERO question on whether they work or not.. We KNOW they work.
I dont know if the results are due to the specific programming that Evotech uses or if its just airflow related.. Maybe the dyno room just cant supply enough airflow for the car to put the numbers down???
Adam: Scan and post the dyno chart.. it is too dark and unreadable on the fax you sent me.
We have 2 dynos that show power that we know of. There is ZERO question on whether they work or not.. We KNOW they work.
I dont know if the results are due to the specific programming that Evotech uses or if its just airflow related.. Maybe the dyno room just cant supply enough airflow for the car to put the numbers down???
Adam: Scan and post the dyno chart.. it is too dark and unreadable on the fax you sent me.
01-20-2008, 08:31 PM
#255
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Does his car have cams and ported heads or just cams?
01-20-2008, 10:23 PM
#256
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2003 E55 AMG
Sorry Mike.. which question.. Shoot them via email so they dont get lost.. LOL..
Use victor@vrptuning.com from now on.. dont send to hotmail.
JakPro has the VRP ported heads with cams.
He did extensive datalogging.. his boost is exactly the same as before the heads & cams... so he had no boost loss. His car went pig rich after the install so we are trying to figure out if we should do a custom tune on the car to extract all the power... I think it's going to need it...
Use victor@vrptuning.com from now on.. dont send to hotmail.
JakPro has the VRP ported heads with cams.
He did extensive datalogging.. his boost is exactly the same as before the heads & cams... so he had no boost loss. His car went pig rich after the install so we are trying to figure out if we should do a custom tune on the car to extract all the power... I think it's going to need it...
Originally Posted by AMG-Jerry
Does his car have cams and ported heads or just cams?
01-21-2008, 12:01 AM
#258
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JakPro has the VRP ported heads with cams.
He did extensive datalogging.. his boost is exactly the same as before the heads & cams... so he had no boost loss. His car went pig rich after the install so we are trying to figure out if we should do a custom tune on the car to extract all the power... I think it's going to need it...
He did extensive datalogging.. his boost is exactly the same as before the heads & cams... so he had no boost loss. His car went pig rich after the install so we are trying to figure out if we should do a custom tune on the car to extract all the power... I think it's going to need it...
01-21-2008, 05:16 AM
#259
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Rocket is going to do a 1/4 mile run and see what the outcome is. All the cams have been sold and no one has complained about lost power so I really dont know how to explain this.
We have 2 dynos that show power that we know of. There is ZERO question on whether they work or not.. We KNOW they work.
I dont know if the results are due to the specific programming that Evotech uses or if its just airflow related.. Maybe the dyno room just cant supply enough airflow for the car to put the numbers down???
Adam: Scan and post the dyno chart.. it is too dark and unreadable on the fax you sent me.
We have 2 dynos that show power that we know of. There is ZERO question on whether they work or not.. We KNOW they work.
I dont know if the results are due to the specific programming that Evotech uses or if its just airflow related.. Maybe the dyno room just cant supply enough airflow for the car to put the numbers down???
Adam: Scan and post the dyno chart.. it is too dark and unreadable on the fax you sent me.
01-21-2008, 09:39 AM
#260
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2003 E55 & 2014 GL550
I really think that if we can pull some fuel out of the mix, the car is going to really jam. Feels strong now and dyno 1/4 numbers confirm that it is strong. Still ran 10.8 on dyno, yet car is just dumping fuel on me at full throttle.
01-23-2008, 05:00 PM
#261
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Jim,
If we need to custom tune it, I'll do what I can for you.. We just need to get your car to Cali so I can get Vadim & Jeremy to build the VR700 tune for it!
If we need to custom tune it, I'll do what I can for you.. We just need to get your car to Cali so I can get Vadim & Jeremy to build the VR700 tune for it!
01-23-2008, 05:04 PM
#262
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01-28-2008, 01:02 PM
#264
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I think he is ru8ning rich cause Kleemann ECU is rich from the start...They do it jsut to be safe...Then ECU does correlation adjustment (10%) and dumping more fuel cuase it sees more air flow...That what exactly happand to ME once I installed VRP CF Airboz and tubes Afrs dropped from 12.2 to 11.7...
01-29-2008, 01:36 PM
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CLS55, BMW 540, SUPRA
This has been a wonderful thread and i have just read all 6 pages word by word. What surprises me more than anything that there in no flowbench results on the heads that have been done.
VRUS, no offense to your shop, but how do you know that the heads actually have improved? Just because someone grinds at the ports and blends things does not mean you have improved flow. One of the biggest problems with a head job in a forced induction car is the PORT VELOCITY. I have seen more heads that picked up 30-40cfms on the flow bench at a specific lift, but their port velocity took a dump and went down 100ft/sec. I promise you that i can grind a nice big shiny hole and actually show an increase on the FLOW at a certain high lift like 0.4" to 0.5" of lift, but that car will perform like a dog.
That will significantly hurt power. Most guys that claim to do heads do not do throat corrections to prevent port velocity from decreasing. But there is no way to know any of the above if a proper flow bench test is not done on every head before and after. Since these heads are not CNC ported, no two will be the same. I understand that you want to have quick turn around, but good things come to who wait. Look how long it has taken just to get a dyno?
If i was a customer, i would have no problem waiting to make sure that the head i am getting is flow tested appropriately. I think what you are doing is great and I might consider it for my CLS55, but we need a little more info.
VRUS, no offense to your shop, but how do you know that the heads actually have improved? Just because someone grinds at the ports and blends things does not mean you have improved flow. One of the biggest problems with a head job in a forced induction car is the PORT VELOCITY. I have seen more heads that picked up 30-40cfms on the flow bench at a specific lift, but their port velocity took a dump and went down 100ft/sec. I promise you that i can grind a nice big shiny hole and actually show an increase on the FLOW at a certain high lift like 0.4" to 0.5" of lift, but that car will perform like a dog.
That will significantly hurt power. Most guys that claim to do heads do not do throat corrections to prevent port velocity from decreasing. But there is no way to know any of the above if a proper flow bench test is not done on every head before and after. Since these heads are not CNC ported, no two will be the same. I understand that you want to have quick turn around, but good things come to who wait. Look how long it has taken just to get a dyno?
If i was a customer, i would have no problem waiting to make sure that the head i am getting is flow tested appropriately. I think what you are doing is great and I might consider it for my CLS55, but we need a little more info.
Last edited by saman6164; 01-29-2008 at 03:26 PM.
01-29-2008, 02:18 PM
#266
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2003 E55 & 2014 GL550
Very true and very good input.
I am just hoping we can tune this out. Here's the encouraging part.
(Forgot if I mentioned this before). Before heads and cams, we ran the car on the dyno and also ran it in 1/4 mile mode on the dyno. Car pulled a 10.88 before heads and cams (heh, a 1.4 60', GOSH I wish I could do that on the street) So we tried some pulls after heads and cams and were having pickup trouble so we just tried a 1/4 run for the heck of it. Even running with Air Fuels near 10flat......car ran a 10.84. That is why I am not panicing yet. If we can tune this out, the car is gonna be a monster.
I feel like the car is ready to explode with more power but choking on fuel. I am still excited and hopeful.
I am just hoping we can tune this out. Here's the encouraging part.
(Forgot if I mentioned this before). Before heads and cams, we ran the car on the dyno and also ran it in 1/4 mile mode on the dyno. Car pulled a 10.88 before heads and cams (heh, a 1.4 60', GOSH I wish I could do that on the street) So we tried some pulls after heads and cams and were having pickup trouble so we just tried a 1/4 run for the heck of it. Even running with Air Fuels near 10flat......car ran a 10.84. That is why I am not panicing yet. If we can tune this out, the car is gonna be a monster.
I feel like the car is ready to explode with more power but choking on fuel. I am still excited and hopeful.
01-29-2008, 04:49 PM
#267
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05 ML-500 , 03 CLK5.5 AMG has left the Garage
No Dyno yet from Me
Maybe this is what you are looking for. And yes it was a pain in the A$$ to flow all those ports. It was posted under project ___PTE___ I watch the forum & read it daily. My car is a 2003 CLK 5.5 AMG I've got the heads off it & porting them. Spent some time in front of a Flow bench trying to measure the stock Flow in CFM.
I found the intake side pretty good. 146 CFM @ .500 valve lift . The exhaust is not to bad. 104 CFM @ .500 Valve lift. That is 70% as spec ratio Exhaust to Intake flow. That's what we like to see for a performance N/A engine for street use. And keep the emissions to Federal US EPA specs.
My next move is to increase both and try to keep to the 70% ratio . The exhaust port in this motor & your blower motor are the same. They have a large protrusion on both sides , in the bowl area that restricts the out going exhaust flow.These protrusions are there to make internal space for the twin spark plugs. Attached is the Finish Porting Numbers & Flow chart. The exhaust went from 104 CFM @ .500 valve lift too 121.7 CFM @ .500 valve lift. The intake went from 149 CFM @ .500 valve lift , too 187.7 CFM @ .500 valve lift. The valves are the OEM ,that came in the heads. As Victor stated the newer heads 05 & up nolonger have those reliefs for the spark plugs
I found the intake side pretty good. 146 CFM @ .500 valve lift . The exhaust is not to bad. 104 CFM @ .500 Valve lift. That is 70% as spec ratio Exhaust to Intake flow. That's what we like to see for a performance N/A engine for street use. And keep the emissions to Federal US EPA specs.
My next move is to increase both and try to keep to the 70% ratio . The exhaust port in this motor & your blower motor are the same. They have a large protrusion on both sides , in the bowl area that restricts the out going exhaust flow.These protrusions are there to make internal space for the twin spark plugs. Attached is the Finish Porting Numbers & Flow chart. The exhaust went from 104 CFM @ .500 valve lift too 121.7 CFM @ .500 valve lift. The intake went from 149 CFM @ .500 valve lift , too 187.7 CFM @ .500 valve lift. The valves are the OEM ,that came in the heads. As Victor stated the newer heads 05 & up nolonger have those reliefs for the spark plugs
01-29-2008, 09:03 PM
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CLS55, BMW 540, SUPRA
It makes no difference what cams or heads you have. The sweet spot is always around 11.5-11.7:1. If you have more aggressive cams, and better flowing head, you will initially be more lean (ie more air) so you add fuel to richen it back to 11.5-11.7:1. Over all not you are using more air and more fuel= more power!
01-29-2008, 11:19 PM
#270
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It makes no difference what cams or heads you have. The sweet spot is always around 11.5-11.7:1. If you have more aggressive cams, and better flowing head, you will initially be more lean (ie more air) so you add fuel to richen it back to 11.5-11.7:1. Over all not you are using more air and more fuel= more power!
01-30-2008, 06:35 AM
#271
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It makes no difference what cams or heads you have. The sweet spot is always around 11.5-11.7:1. If you have more aggressive cams, and better flowing head, you will initially be more lean (ie more air) so you add fuel to richen it back to 11.5-11.7:1. Over all not you are using more air and more fuel= more power!
01-30-2008, 09:37 AM
#272
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Of course it would. That would not be a surprise at all. I guaranty you that if you can log knock sensors i will show you that your call is knocking like crazy being that lean. As i mentioned the leaner you make the car depending on the octane you have the more power you will make. There is a famous phrase "leaner is meaner." BUT, you are running the risk of putting a hole in one of your pistons. The difference betwenn 11.7:1 to 12.2:1 is maybe 20whp at the boost level for a 55compressor engine. To me its not worth it.
If you have tuned your car for 12.2:1, what happens if you get a bad tank of gas? Do you think all pump gas are the same? There have been many tests done that showed pump gas from even same stations on different days can show different octane rating. At 12.2 you are already at the edge, and you will destroy your engine.
A good and reliable tuner will never tune your car that lean on pump gas. On leaded 118 octane on high boost applications we will lean it to 12.3-12.5 but those are for very short runs. If you do a 2nd-5th gear pull on the highway being that lean, you will not be happy.
Last edited by saman6164; 01-30-2008 at 09:43 AM.
01-30-2008, 09:39 PM
#273
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Based on the porting that was done on my original heads, the flow bench showed just under 100 CFM improvement in flow @ 0.500 (thats with my enlarged Ferrea valves). I have a fax copy of the flowbench testing somewhere around here.
The ratio between intake & exhaust was kept constant.. The combustion chamber CC was almost identical but reshaped to enhance flow. These guys that do the work for me have been doing this for 25yrs and build alot of engines used in road racing. I have complete confidence in their abilities.. This is not some guy with a die-grinder going crazy.
On the next set we do, I will get the before & after flow numbers and will post them for you guys.
The ratio between intake & exhaust was kept constant.. The combustion chamber CC was almost identical but reshaped to enhance flow. These guys that do the work for me have been doing this for 25yrs and build alot of engines used in road racing. I have complete confidence in their abilities.. This is not some guy with a die-grinder going crazy.
On the next set we do, I will get the before & after flow numbers and will post them for you guys.
This has been a wonderful thread and i have just read all 6 pages word by word. What surprises me more than anything that there in no flowbench results on the heads that have been done.
VRUS, no offense to your shop, but how do you know that the heads actually have improved? Just because someone grinds at the ports and blends things does not mean you have improved flow. One of the biggest problems with a head job in a forced induction car is the PORT VELOCITY. I have seen more heads that picked up 30-40cfms on the flow bench at a specific lift, but their port velocity took a dump and went down 100ft/sec. I promise you that i can grind a nice big shiny hole and actually show an increase on the FLOW at a certain high lift like 0.4" to 0.5" of lift, but that car will perform like a dog.
That will significantly hurt power. Most guys that claim to do heads do not do throat corrections to prevent port velocity from decreasing. But there is no way to know any of the above if a proper flow bench test is not done on every head before and after. Since these heads are not CNC ported, no two will be the same. I understand that you want to have quick turn around, but good things come to who wait. Look how long it has taken just to get a dyno?
If i was a customer, i would have no problem waiting to make sure that the head i am getting is flow tested appropriately. I think what you are doing is great and I might consider it for my CLS55, but we need a little more info.
VRUS, no offense to your shop, but how do you know that the heads actually have improved? Just because someone grinds at the ports and blends things does not mean you have improved flow. One of the biggest problems with a head job in a forced induction car is the PORT VELOCITY. I have seen more heads that picked up 30-40cfms on the flow bench at a specific lift, but their port velocity took a dump and went down 100ft/sec. I promise you that i can grind a nice big shiny hole and actually show an increase on the FLOW at a certain high lift like 0.4" to 0.5" of lift, but that car will perform like a dog.
That will significantly hurt power. Most guys that claim to do heads do not do throat corrections to prevent port velocity from decreasing. But there is no way to know any of the above if a proper flow bench test is not done on every head before and after. Since these heads are not CNC ported, no two will be the same. I understand that you want to have quick turn around, but good things come to who wait. Look how long it has taken just to get a dyno?
If i was a customer, i would have no problem waiting to make sure that the head i am getting is flow tested appropriately. I think what you are doing is great and I might consider it for my CLS55, but we need a little more info.
01-30-2008, 09:49 PM
#274
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Thats the problem i see all the time. Some of the best porters that do race cars completely destroy a street cars head. Remember a race/drag car that is always between 6000-8000rpm is different than our cars. A race car will leave the line at 6000+ rpm on a 2step with 10lbs of boost and will never drop below 6000rpm. On that car, who cares if the port velocity has dropped in the lower lifts. Those cars also have much much more aggressive cams and benefit from the flow at the higher lifts.
Even my fully race spec/built stoker supra only sees a 11.2mm lift which is 0.45" and never sees 0.5" of lift. As a reference the stock cams only have a 9mm lift which is 0.35".
01-30-2008, 10:00 PM
#275
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When they did the port work, they asked me about engine specs, cam specs, compression, they wanted dyno graph w/ A/F readings.. they specialize in doing this stuff because they work on a diverse set of engines..
I've seen them taking apart brand new Porsche 997TT heads and porting them.. I've also seen 572 big blocks getting their heavy *** heads ported with valves big enough that I can put my fist through it.. lol..
Let me just say...
E55 Stock lift = low 11s
VRP cams = all the extra piston-to-valve clearance we have minus a little margin of safety.. Is that clear enough?
I've seen them taking apart brand new Porsche 997TT heads and porting them.. I've also seen 572 big blocks getting their heavy *** heads ported with valves big enough that I can put my fist through it.. lol..
Let me just say...
E55 Stock lift = low 11s
VRP cams = all the extra piston-to-valve clearance we have minus a little margin of safety.. Is that clear enough?
That sounds good, but if the cams do not have a 0.5"(12.7mm) lift then it really does not matter how they flow at that lift. And i would be shocked that if stock or the VRP cams have such a high lift
Thats the problem i see all the time. Some of the best porters that do race cars completely destroy a street cars head. Remember a race/drag car that is always between 6000-8000rpm is different than our cars. A race car will leave the line at 6000+ rpm on a 2step with 10lbs of boost and will never drop below 6000rpm. On that car, who cares if the port velocity has dropped in the lower lifts. Those cars also have much much more aggressive cams and benefit from the flow at the higher lifts.
Even my fully race spec/built stoker supra only sees a 11.2mm lift which is 0.45" and never sees 0.5" of lift. As a reference the stock cams only have a 9mm lift which is 0.35".
Thats the problem i see all the time. Some of the best porters that do race cars completely destroy a street cars head. Remember a race/drag car that is always between 6000-8000rpm is different than our cars. A race car will leave the line at 6000+ rpm on a 2step with 10lbs of boost and will never drop below 6000rpm. On that car, who cares if the port velocity has dropped in the lower lifts. Those cars also have much much more aggressive cams and benefit from the flow at the higher lifts.
Even my fully race spec/built stoker supra only sees a 11.2mm lift which is 0.45" and never sees 0.5" of lift. As a reference the stock cams only have a 9mm lift which is 0.35".
