AMG horsepower wars over....
Thread Starter
Super Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 562
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From: East Bay Area, CA
2013 SL 550 (Previously 2012 Porsche Panamera Turbo-S, 2015 Tesla P85D, 2007 S600, 2005 E55 AMG)
AMG horsepower wars over....
AMG throwing in the towel?
http://www.motorauthority.com/cars/m...power-war-over
Someone tell Audi and Cadillac!
It does though feel there is a sea-change slowly occurring... perhaps we really are starting to see the last gasp of over increasing HP numbers in volume sedan models at least? It was never going to be sustainable indefinitely...
Chris
http://www.motorauthority.com/cars/m...power-war-over
Someone tell Audi and Cadillac!
It does though feel there is a sea-change slowly occurring... perhaps we really are starting to see the last gasp of over increasing HP numbers in volume sedan models at least? It was never going to be sustainable indefinitely...
Chris
Last edited by cjf_moraga; Jan 23, 2008 at 03:07 PM.
Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 271
Likes: 9
From: Richmond, VA
2013 C63 W204, 2016 E63S W212 Matte Gray
Wow. I don't know whether to be sad, or thankful. I.e. I am thankful I have one of the "last" (relatively) Monsters made , and to certainly be grandfathered-in when the socialists take over in November.
I am hopeful to get 10 years out of my Animal. That puts me at 2018, and I figure one of the following will be the state of affairs:
1. no more oil, and no alternative fuels = the "great and final war"
2. we will be a 100% socialist country and private citizens will not be allowed to own private property, including cars; or
3. we will be a colonized satellite of the Middle Eastern countries; or
4. A new technological revolution will have taken hold, and we can drive our asses off (like we do now), but with minimal co2 emissions (500+ hp/torque vehicles, running off of O2 and/or sunlight alone); there is peace in the middle east, we have 97% employment, and Brittany is a teen counselor.
I vote for #4
I am hopeful to get 10 years out of my Animal. That puts me at 2018, and I figure one of the following will be the state of affairs:
1. no more oil, and no alternative fuels = the "great and final war"
2. we will be a 100% socialist country and private citizens will not be allowed to own private property, including cars; or
3. we will be a colonized satellite of the Middle Eastern countries; or
4. A new technological revolution will have taken hold, and we can drive our asses off (like we do now), but with minimal co2 emissions (500+ hp/torque vehicles, running off of O2 and/or sunlight alone); there is peace in the middle east, we have 97% employment, and Brittany is a teen counselor.
I vote for #4
Thread Starter
Super Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 562
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From: East Bay Area, CA
2013 SL 550 (Previously 2012 Porsche Panamera Turbo-S, 2015 Tesla P85D, 2007 S600, 2005 E55 AMG)
AMG without ridiculously powerful torquey engines compared to the competition... well to me it just won't feel like AMG... They can put a lot more development into handling, interior etc to be sure...
....but that is also the sweet spot for BMW and I certainly don't underestimate their ability to keep ahead of the pack in that department... (AMG is trying with the C63 but its still hard compared to the M3 for example) At the very least this weakens AMG's competitive position...
Chris
....but that is also the sweet spot for BMW and I certainly don't underestimate their ability to keep ahead of the pack in that department... (AMG is trying with the C63 but its still hard compared to the M3 for example) At the very least this weakens AMG's competitive position...
Chris
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From: Seattle
'19 E63S, ‘16 CLS63 RIP, '09 E63 Gone, '06 M5 Gone, '97 Supra TT Gone
Wow this is unprecedented, I can't believe that the 63TT is dead in the water before it ever surfaced. Looks like the current 63 guys can breathe a sigh of relief.
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MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,466
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From: Southern Cali (Ontario)
6.2L is fine..
just need a dual clutch trasmission to compete with the big boys.
Nissan has one,
VW/Audi
BMW
and Mitsubishi
c'mon MB step up!
just need a dual clutch trasmission to compete with the big boys.
Nissan has one,
VW/Audi
BMW
and Mitsubishi
c'mon MB step up!
Last edited by TopGun32; Jan 23, 2008 at 04:12 PM.
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 6,761
Likes: 594
From: Seattle
'19 E63S, ‘16 CLS63 RIP, '09 E63 Gone, '06 M5 Gone, '97 Supra TT Gone
Read the article in the SL AMG forum about the upcoming SL63. Your prayers have been answered in the form of a multi-clutch 7-speed tranny. Bye bye torque converter.
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Posts: 2,146
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From: L.A., CA
'08 M5, '10 Land Cruiser
AMG throwing in the towel?
http://www.motorauthority.com/cars/m...power-war-over
Someone tell Audi and Cadillac!
It does though feel there is a sea-change slowly occurring... perhaps we really are starting to see the last gasp of over increasing HP numbers in volume sedan models at least? It was never going to be sustainable indefinitely...
Chris
http://www.motorauthority.com/cars/m...power-war-over
Someone tell Audi and Cadillac!
It does though feel there is a sea-change slowly occurring... perhaps we really are starting to see the last gasp of over increasing HP numbers in volume sedan models at least? It was never going to be sustainable indefinitely...
Chris
Anyhow, this is no bad thing. Weight, trick gearboxes and the associated improvements with handling are the way forward as once you hit 500bhp there's nothing but bragging rights at stake.
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,797
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From: Richmond Hill, Ontario
2003 E55 AMG
Hmm.. that's weird... Coincidence??....
I just got a call from some German speaking guy asking me if I would be willing to build them a 6.3TT engine for their new car coming out... It was hard to make out what he was saying.. i heard bits and pieces of english words.... AMG..... Stuttgart.... 6.3.... Twin Turbo .... VRP .... build .... it.....
I guess they want to outsource???
:r olf:
There is a 6.3TT coming... Dont you worry... It will just have a different badge on the back, that's all..
I just got a call from some German speaking guy asking me if I would be willing to build them a 6.3TT engine for their new car coming out... It was hard to make out what he was saying.. i heard bits and pieces of english words.... AMG..... Stuttgart.... 6.3.... Twin Turbo .... VRP .... build .... it.....
I guess they want to outsource???
:r olf:There is a 6.3TT coming... Dont you worry... It will just have a different badge on the back, that's all..
Last edited by vrus; Jan 23, 2008 at 04:55 PM.
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Posts: 7,092
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From: Salt Lake City (but not Morm)
2003 E55 & 2014 GL550
I gotta say, when Benz posting RECORD sales after they ditched the blowers, it was the final nails in the coffin.
Long as people keep snatching up the N/A's, they'll keep pumping them out and just raping in the profit.
Truly a sad day.
Thank God for tuners.
Long as people keep snatching up the N/A's, they'll keep pumping them out and just raping in the profit.
Truly a sad day.
Thank God for tuners.
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 271
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From: Richmond, VA
2013 C63 W204, 2016 E63S W212 Matte Gray
I was under the impression that sales of the naturally aspirated E63s were lousy. Are you saying the sales are good and thus no more supercharged engines?
thnx
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Mercedes Benz
We need to realize that carbon emissions and mpg standards in Europe are set to get increasing more stiff in the next 2-5 years to a point where these massive fast cars will not be allowed any longer.
Porsche has started looking at hybrids, MB has a new 4 cyl motor for the next S-Class that gets 44 mpg and goes 0-60 in 7.5 seconds, diesel power is coming back into fashion etc.
There is a TT V8 coming out but its not what everyone is expecting. It should be replacing the aging V12TT and not being used to go after the M5.
AMG did the power thing and now they realize that the competition makes a better all around car with nearly the same speed. So with a new DSG style trans, lighter weight, better interior appointments and better chassis dynamics the next AMG cars will be made for spirit driving not 1/4 drag racing.
By 2012 things will be very sad for high HP cars.
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From: Salt Lake City (but not Morm)
2003 E55 & 2014 GL550
Not saying sales are good, just saying that Benz hasn't "lost their shirt" like everyone was expecting.
If sales fell dramatically, Benz would have to do something. Sales roll on, albeit down a tick and everyone is happy.......cept us of course.
If sales fell dramatically, Benz would have to do something. Sales roll on, albeit down a tick and everyone is happy.......cept us of course.
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From: Brisbane, Australia
2003 E55
I would think (excluding development costs) that the cost of the supercharger would be additional to the engine and make the 55 more costly. After all the number and complexity of engine parts are similar - 8 pistons, block, etc only 8 extra valves. I haven't heard that the 62 engine has extra expensive rare earth/alloy parts.
Please educate me.
Thread Starter
Super Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 562
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From: East Bay Area, CA
2013 SL 550 (Previously 2012 Porsche Panamera Turbo-S, 2015 Tesla P85D, 2007 S600, 2005 E55 AMG)
I can certainly imagine that the 6.2 is more expensive the than the 55K engine... You can't ignore R+D costs in the final price... Someone has to pay for it...
The 55K engine is a bored out version of the standard 5.0L 3 valve V8 and must share many components with the 100,000's of other 5.0 V8's out there. In other words it is a modified version of a standard design whose R+D costs are already absorbed. The SC is extra to be sure but I am sure not that much extra...
The 6.3 engine is a custom design for AMG only with a much more limited distribution (What 20,000 AMG's a year?) and it is not only the cost of the physical parts of the engine in the costs but all of the R+D and certification etc that has to be recouped also.
Chris
The 55K engine is a bored out version of the standard 5.0L 3 valve V8 and must share many components with the 100,000's of other 5.0 V8's out there. In other words it is a modified version of a standard design whose R+D costs are already absorbed. The SC is extra to be sure but I am sure not that much extra...
The 6.3 engine is a custom design for AMG only with a much more limited distribution (What 20,000 AMG's a year?) and it is not only the cost of the physical parts of the engine in the costs but all of the R+D and certification etc that has to be recouped also.
Chris
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Mercedes Benz
Are you sure? Where did you get the info?
I would think (excluding development costs) that the cost of the supercharger would be additional to the engine and make the 55 more costly. After all the number and complexity of engine parts are similar - 8 pistons, block, etc only 8 extra valves. I haven't heard that the 62 engine has extra expensive rare earth/alloy parts.
Please educate me.
I would think (excluding development costs) that the cost of the supercharger would be additional to the engine and make the 55 more costly. After all the number and complexity of engine parts are similar - 8 pistons, block, etc only 8 extra valves. I haven't heard that the 62 engine has extra expensive rare earth/alloy parts.
Please educate me.
The M113 was 30% cheaper to make than the M119 it replaced. It used cheaper castings for the block, the rods, pistons, crank etc. The M119 made more power and tq for a given displacement and it sounds light years better as well. The hallow cam shafts of the M113 make so much sound that they sound like they are 100k miles old when new. The M119 was SILENT at idle compared to the M113.
Now the M113k motor had upgraded internals but the budget to upgrade to AMG spec was very low. The blower at cost is what less than 1k? The marginal cost to go from M113 5.0 to M113k 5.5 was not that massive.
Now the 6.2L motor was built in house and shares no design with the 550 motor seen in the rest of the mb line. So the design, testing, and production costs are allocated over a much smaller number of units making the per unit cost far higher for the 6.2L unit. Plus the tappets in the 6.2L motor are more costly than a conventional valve train system plus there are twice the valves and twice the cam shafts when compared to the M113.
Now the TT 63 never came out because it was so costly to make. The original plan was for a 63 TT to be out long ago and the block, head, and other internals are made to withstand the stress of a 600+ hp motor. But the motor was so much more costly to make that adding turbos, intercoolers, additional cooling etc made the TT version to costly to bring to market.
There is a TT V8 coming but its not going to be a 6.2L motor with turbos hanging off the side like we all hope and dream for.
Thread Starter
Super Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 562
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From: East Bay Area, CA
2013 SL 550 (Previously 2012 Porsche Panamera Turbo-S, 2015 Tesla P85D, 2007 S600, 2005 E55 AMG)
You put it more elegantly than I CynCarvin32 and make sense! Your posts seem very informed concerning the development strategies for MB and AMG engines... You have an inside source or are in the industry?
BTW: You failed - the M113 motor is flameproof!
Chris
BTW: You failed - the M113 motor is flameproof!
Chris
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From: Long Island
'07 Porsche 997TT
If you were told you can keep the same amount of HP but have a lighter car, just as comfortable, and a much more dynamic driving experience, you wouldn't want it?
