VRP cams and timming?
01-30-2008, 03:08 PM
#26
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OT: I have a wideband afr question. Where do you guys route the sensor in order to get an accurate reading? Do you somehow use two sensors, one for each bank? I have an innovate wideband and just have it reading off of one bank until I figure out a better way
01-30-2008, 04:23 PM
#27
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The key word is SO FAR. If you have tuned your car for 12.2:1, what happens if you get a bad tank of gas? Do you think all pump gas are the same? There have been many tests done that showed pump gas from even same stations on different days can show different octane rating. At 12.2 you are already at the edge, and you will destroy your engine.
A good and reliable tuner will never tune your car that lean on pump gas. On leaded 118 octane on high boost applications we will lean it to 12.3-12.5 but those are for very short runs. If you do a 2nd-5th gear pull on the highway being that lean, you might end up with a blown engine. It will benefit the tuners to claim a bigger whp by tuning cars leaner for selling more of their kits and tuning packages, but talk to some renowned tuners and they will confirm what I am saying.
I would never run my boosted car leaner than 11.7:1 on pump gas. Pump gas a MON of 89 i think and that is way too low.
A good and reliable tuner will never tune your car that lean on pump gas. On leaded 118 octane on high boost applications we will lean it to 12.3-12.5 but those are for very short runs. If you do a 2nd-5th gear pull on the highway being that lean, you might end up with a blown engine. It will benefit the tuners to claim a bigger whp by tuning cars leaner for selling more of their kits and tuning packages, but talk to some renowned tuners and they will confirm what I am saying.
I would never run my boosted car leaner than 11.7:1 on pump gas. Pump gas a MON of 89 i think and that is way too low.
Last edited by E55 RUSS; 01-30-2008 at 04:29 PM.
01-30-2008, 04:46 PM
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My tuner is Justin Nenni. He is a world renowned tuner. He tunes for the King of Dubai, Hennesey, and is flown all over the world to tune some of the biggest HP cars. He just got back from Panama tuning Ricardo Mayorgas(pro boxer) Lambo LP640. He has tuned anything from 400whp up to 1500whp supras and vipers. His latest tune on a supra just broke the Texas Mile record of ~230mph!
He will tell you the same thing I am saying. There is no reason to push the limit with pump gas.
thanks
01-30-2008, 05:02 PM
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They say that because they have no idea what they are talking about. And also to sell themselves and get your money because THEIR TUNE makes 10-20 more whp. But they will not pay one cent if something goes wrong. Remember that these tuners are not changing chemistry. Air and fuel like to burn a specific way and at a certain ration to make reliable power. Whether its in a Merc or BMW or Supra. Depending on the application and octane, limits can be pushed. But you will not find a reliable tuner that will tell you that 12.5:1 is safe on pump gas for a forced induction car. If they say so, i want them to tell me in my face so i can laugh.
My tuner is Justin Nenni. He is a world renowned tuner. He tunes for the King of Dubai, Hennesey, and is flown all over the world to tune some of the biggest HP cars. He just got back from Panama tuning Ricardo Mayorgas(pro boxer) Lambo LP640. He has tuned anything from 400whp up to 1500whp supras and vipers. His latest tune on a supra just broke the Texas Mile record of ~230mph!
He will tell you the same thing I am saying. There is no reason to push the limit with pump gas.
My tuner is Justin Nenni. He is a world renowned tuner. He tunes for the King of Dubai, Hennesey, and is flown all over the world to tune some of the biggest HP cars. He just got back from Panama tuning Ricardo Mayorgas(pro boxer) Lambo LP640. He has tuned anything from 400whp up to 1500whp supras and vipers. His latest tune on a supra just broke the Texas Mile record of ~230mph!
He will tell you the same thing I am saying. There is no reason to push the limit with pump gas.
01-30-2008, 05:26 PM
#32
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30degrees of timing at idle/steady cruising is perfectly fine. As load increases timing should decrease. No matter what the car/engine, in a forced induction setup, timing should be the lowest at peak torque. Its not just RPM based but also load dependent. You might be at 3000rpm at steady state, but you are not in boost at that point. You will be in vaccum. The moment you step on it and go from vaccum to boost timing should significantly drop.
Now with the V8 supercharged engine peak torque happens quite early, so lets say if peak tq is at 3000rpm then that should be the lowest timing seen on the timing map for that boost level. On pump gas i would say that would be 14degrees of timing. Then from there it would gradually build up and increase to 16-17 degrees of timing at red line for 91 octane and 18 degrees for 93octane gas. Timing should be raised with raised RPM because as RPM goes up piston speed goes up so timing needs to be advanced for proper ignition.
The above is assuming that the fuel map has already been setup properly and you are tuned to 11.5-11.7:1 AFR. Remember that you could be pig rich and still detonate cause you are running too much timing. I could make a car detonate and melt the pistons and have an AFR of 10.0:1 if i run 25degrees of timing. So both the AFR and timing have to be in sync. Hope that helps.
01-30-2008, 05:35 PM
#33
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Sorry to take thread off track a bit but all these things are kind of tied into each other. I kind of partially answered your question on an earlier response but i will go into a little more detail.
30degrees of timing at idle/steady cruising is perfectly fine. As load increases timing should decrease. No matter what the car/engine, in a forced induction setup, timing should be the lowest at peak torque. Its not just RPM based but also load dependent. You might be at 3000rpm at steady state, but you are not in boost at that point. You will be in vaccum. The moment you step on it and go from vaccum to boost timing should significantly drop.
Now with the V8 supercharged engine peak torque happens quite early, so lets say if peak tq is at 3000rpm then that should be the lowest timing seen on the timing map for that boost level. On pump gas i would say that would be 14degrees of timing. Then from there it would gradually build up and increase to 16-17 degrees of timing at red line for 91 octane and 18 degrees for 93octane gas. Timing should be raised with raised RPM because as RPM goes up piston speed goes up so timing needs to be advanced for proper ignition.
The above is assuming that the fuel map has already been setup properly and you are tuned to 11.5-11.7:1 AFR. Remember that you could be pig rich and still detonate cause you are running too much timing. I could make a car detonate and melt the pistons and have an AFR of 10.0:1 if i run 25degrees of timing. So both the AFR and timing have to be in sync. Hope that helps.
30degrees of timing at idle/steady cruising is perfectly fine. As load increases timing should decrease. No matter what the car/engine, in a forced induction setup, timing should be the lowest at peak torque. Its not just RPM based but also load dependent. You might be at 3000rpm at steady state, but you are not in boost at that point. You will be in vaccum. The moment you step on it and go from vaccum to boost timing should significantly drop.
Now with the V8 supercharged engine peak torque happens quite early, so lets say if peak tq is at 3000rpm then that should be the lowest timing seen on the timing map for that boost level. On pump gas i would say that would be 14degrees of timing. Then from there it would gradually build up and increase to 16-17 degrees of timing at red line for 91 octane and 18 degrees for 93octane gas. Timing should be raised with raised RPM because as RPM goes up piston speed goes up so timing needs to be advanced for proper ignition.
The above is assuming that the fuel map has already been setup properly and you are tuned to 11.5-11.7:1 AFR. Remember that you could be pig rich and still detonate cause you are running too much timing. I could make a car detonate and melt the pistons and have an AFR of 10.0:1 if i run 25degrees of timing. So both the AFR and timing have to be in sync. Hope that helps.
01-30-2008, 05:38 PM
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01-30-2008, 05:52 PM
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No problem. I have not posted much on this board, but have been on for a while and have kept quiet for the most part. Nothing against you, but sometimes i see so much garbage and misinformation that spread around on this board that i think i need to step in and put my 2cents in
01-31-2008, 09:37 AM
#36
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rocket have Adam check the knock sensor log with the star-diagnostic. The ecu is retarding timing, either because of knock or Iat's . You are running 91 octane correct ?
01-31-2008, 09:58 AM
#37
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Timing is the killer not the afr's . I have seen many maps from different MB tuners who are to aggressive on the timing and the engines have hurt pistons with 11.2 to 11.3 AFR's
In regards to the other poster had your car been detonating during your track run the car would have slowed down big time. The dme retards 5 to 10 degrees per occurrence. I'm not saying to depend on the dme to save your engine but if your timing is conservative 12.0 on the street will not be problem. I have over a year and a half of countless passes and runs on an e55 to prove that.
Mike do research on your own, if there is something I have learned over the years is, general tuning rules may apply to all cars but each car is different.
01-31-2008, 12:01 PM
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Mike my car stays in the 11.7 to 11.8 range and climbs to 11.90-12.0 right before the shift after the cams. The cams leaned the afr sligthly and is why I did not change the tune.
Timing is the killer not the afr's . I have seen many maps from different MB tuners who are to aggressive on the timing and the engines have hurt pistons with 11.2 to 11.3 AFR's
In regards to the other poster had your car been detonating during your track run the car would have slowed down big time. The dme retards 5 to 10 degrees per occurrence. I'm not saying to depend on the dme to save your engine but if your timing is conservative 12.0 on the street will not be problem. I have over a year and a half of countless passes and runs on an e55 to prove that.
Mike do research on your own, if there is something I have learned over the years is, general tuning rules may apply to all cars but each car is different.
Timing is the killer not the afr's . I have seen many maps from different MB tuners who are to aggressive on the timing and the engines have hurt pistons with 11.2 to 11.3 AFR's
In regards to the other poster had your car been detonating during your track run the car would have slowed down big time. The dme retards 5 to 10 degrees per occurrence. I'm not saying to depend on the dme to save your engine but if your timing is conservative 12.0 on the street will not be problem. I have over a year and a half of countless passes and runs on an e55 to prove that.
Mike do research on your own, if there is something I have learned over the years is, general tuning rules may apply to all cars but each car is different.
You are absolutely right, that i can run a 13.0:1 AFR if run 8degrees of timing. But why? Although i am giving an example of the extreme, you should see my point. A properly tuned car should have the fuel map setup first with conservative timing ~12 degrees at first. Once the AFR is setup to 11.5-11.7:1 on pump gas, then you start increasing timing one degree at a time while knock sensors are monitored. There will be a point that adding one degree of timing starts to give you less and less power.
For example, at first going from 12 to 13 degrees might give you ~25whp gain, then adding one more degree might give you 20whp, and going from 14 to 15 degrees might give you 15whp, and going to 16degrees might only give you 5whp increase. This is there you know that adding more timing, is not beneficial and you probably might turn back one degree for a margin of safety. The entire time obviously you are looking for your AFRs to stay rock solid steady. You will make more power with BOTH AFR and timing tuned to where they should be. Bottom line is that you will make more power with AFR of 11.7:1 and 16degrees of timing vs. AFR of 12.0 and 12degrees of timing and your car will actually run better with lower EGTs.
01-31-2008, 12:59 PM
#39
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I agree with you partially on this. Both AFR and Timing could be killer. The bottom line is that there is no reason to decrease timing so you could run a 12.0:1? What would be the benefit of that. If the engine wants lets say a 15degree timing for that boost/RPM and you are giving it 12degrees you are increasing EGTs by retarding the timing.
You are absolutely right, that i can run a 13.0:1 AFR if run 8degrees of timing. But why? Although i am giving an example of the extreme, you should see my point. A properly tuned car should have the fuel map setup first with conservative timing ~12 degrees at first. Once the AFR is setup to 11.5-11.7:1 on pump gas, then you start increasing timing one degree at a time while knock sensors are monitored. There will be a point that adding one degree of timing starts to give you less and less power.
For example, at first going from 12 to 13 degrees might give you ~25whp gain, then adding one more degree might give you 20whp, and going from 14 to 15 degrees might give you 15whp, and going to 16degrees might only give you 5whp increase. This is there you know that adding more timing, is not beneficial and you probably might turn back one degree for a margin of safety. The entire time obviously you are looking for your AFRs to stay rock solid steady. You will make more power with BOTH AFR and timing tuned to where they should be. Bottom line is that you will make more power with AFR of 11.7:1 and 16degrees of timing vs. AFR of 12.0 and 12degrees of timing and your car will actually run better with lower EGTs.
You are absolutely right, that i can run a 13.0:1 AFR if run 8degrees of timing. But why? Although i am giving an example of the extreme, you should see my point. A properly tuned car should have the fuel map setup first with conservative timing ~12 degrees at first. Once the AFR is setup to 11.5-11.7:1 on pump gas, then you start increasing timing one degree at a time while knock sensors are monitored. There will be a point that adding one degree of timing starts to give you less and less power.
For example, at first going from 12 to 13 degrees might give you ~25whp gain, then adding one more degree might give you 20whp, and going from 14 to 15 degrees might give you 15whp, and going to 16degrees might only give you 5whp increase. This is there you know that adding more timing, is not beneficial and you probably might turn back one degree for a margin of safety. The entire time obviously you are looking for your AFRs to stay rock solid steady. You will make more power with BOTH AFR and timing tuned to where they should be. Bottom line is that you will make more power with AFR of 11.7:1 and 16degrees of timing vs. AFR of 12.0 and 12degrees of timing and your car will actually run better with lower EGTs.
Again I have been through all this on my car tuning live on the dyno with an emulator and road testing to make final changes. The same basic tuning principles apply to all gas engines but the tuning settings will always be individual to said engine.
01-31-2008, 02:57 PM
#41
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My whole point was to not generalize and confine yourself to a specific afr or timing mark . An afr of 11.70 to 12.0 will generally only make a difference safe wise if the timing map is to aggressive. You are correct peak hp timing is engine dependant, in my case with 103 octane fuel anything above 21-22 deg lost power. But I have seen several MB tuners run 20-21 deg of advance with 93 on the dyno and the car be perfect, but you bet your life the minute they do a full blast the dme will kill timing to 10-11 deg because of knock.
Again I have been through all this on my car tuning live on the dyno with an emulator and road testing to make final changes. The same basic tuning principles apply to all gas engines but the tuning settings will always be individual to said engine.
Again I have been through all this on my car tuning live on the dyno with an emulator and road testing to make final changes. The same basic tuning principles apply to all gas engines but the tuning settings will always be individual to said engine.
I am glad we agree on this then. Thats exactly my point. People think that just because its safe on the dyno that it will be safe on the street. People dont even think that the dyno is just a single 4th gear pull that lasts a few short seconds and mostly without any load. Its completely different than when we let it rip on the highway and do a 2nd-5th gear pull.Thats further reasoning not to be so close to the edge when tuning on a dyno. You guys are using a tailpipe o2 reader, right? Do any of you guys actually have an onboard wideband to see the AFRs during highway pulls? You would see that with load the car is 0.1-0.2 leaner actually. What most tuners forget is that this car was designed for a specific boost/timing/afr. Once we decide to go outside of that we have to be very very careful.
Not to downplay any of the tuners, but the honda/mitsubishi boys would not trust a mail away tune. Why should we with such an expensive high end car? I dont know the answer to this question, but do you any of you know if our cars have an EGT sensor? Probably not. Mercedes probably worked all that out during ECU development and did not plan that we would be raising boost etc etc. By not running optimum timing and having it retarted, constant high EGTs would be detrimental to the engine. Its one thing when the stock ECU detects knock, retards timing by 10degrees and dumps fuel. In this case the EGT goes really high but for a brief moment because as soon as knock goes away we are back to a normal map. But in a car that is tuned to run high EGTs all the time (because of retarded timing), its a different story.
Last edited by saman6164; 01-31-2008 at 03:00 PM.
01-31-2008, 05:07 PM
#42
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Yes and its not about money with tuners...My tuner made my car rich before I told him to do my AFR at 12-12.2...
Some many experinces people with MB E55 Kompressor and even my chip tuner said max with forced induction car is 12...
Some many experinces people with MB E55 Kompressor and even my chip tuner said max with forced induction car is 12...
01-31-2008, 05:14 PM
#43
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Mike my car stays in the 11.7 to 11.8 range and climbs to 11.90-12.0 right before the shift after the cams. The cams leaned the afr sligthly and is why I did not change the tune.
Timing is the killer not the afr's . I have seen many maps from different MB tuners who are to aggressive on the timing and the engines have hurt pistons with 11.2 to 11.3 AFR's
In regards to the other poster had your car been detonating during your track run the car would have slowed down big time. The dme retards 5 to 10 degrees per occurrence. I'm not saying to depend on the dme to save your engine but if your timing is conservative 12.0 on the street will not be problem. I have over a year and a half of countless passes and runs on an e55 to prove that.
Mike do research on your own, if there is something I have learned over the years is, general tuning rules may apply to all cars but each car is different.
Timing is the killer not the afr's . I have seen many maps from different MB tuners who are to aggressive on the timing and the engines have hurt pistons with 11.2 to 11.3 AFR's
In regards to the other poster had your car been detonating during your track run the car would have slowed down big time. The dme retards 5 to 10 degrees per occurrence. I'm not saying to depend on the dme to save your engine but if your timing is conservative 12.0 on the street will not be problem. I have over a year and a half of countless passes and runs on an e55 to prove that.
Mike do research on your own, if there is something I have learned over the years is, general tuning rules may apply to all cars but each car is different.
Thanks Albert...That what I do reseach but like to know opinions from people who know more then ME...I have changed my ECU file may be 10-15 times now to get the best results...We looked at Kleemann and Evotech programs as well...but got best results from doing our own programs from the scratch...
I dnot know if you will understand ME but how many "knocks" is OK with E55 ???
Last edited by E55 RUSS; 01-31-2008 at 05:17 PM.
01-31-2008, 05:35 PM
#44
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I am glad we agree on this then. Thats exactly my point. People think that just because its safe on the dyno that it will be safe on the street. People dont even think that the dyno is just a single 4th gear pull that lasts a few short seconds and mostly without any load. Its completely different than when we let it rip on the highway and do a 2nd-5th gear pull.Thats further reasoning not to be so close to the edge when tuning on a dyno. You guys are using a tailpipe o2 reader, right? Do any of you guys actually have an onboard wideband to see the AFRs during highway pulls? You would see that with load the car is 0.1-0.2 leaner actually. What most tuners forget is that this car was designed for a specific boost/timing/afr. Once we decide to go outside of that we have to be very very careful.
Not to downplay any of the tuners, but the honda/mitsubishi boys would not trust a mail away tune. Why should we with such an expensive high end car? I dont know the answer to this question, but do you any of you know if our cars have an EGT sensor? Probably not. Mercedes probably worked all that out during ECU development and did not plan that we would be raising boost etc etc. By not running optimum timing and having it retarted, constant high EGTs would be detrimental to the engine. Its one thing when the stock ECU detects knock, retards timing by 10degrees and dumps fuel. In this case the EGT goes really high but for a brief moment because as soon as knock goes away we are back to a normal map. But in a car that is tuned to run high EGTs all the time (because of retarded timing), its a different story.
A few of the guys here use them, I use the tail-pipe sniffer on the right side and the innovative wide-band on the drivers side. I welded an extra o2 bong after the headers for the sensor. The readings are actually pretty close when dynojet -wide band box filter is kept clean and the moisture canister emptied.
The tail-pipe sensor is just slightly delayed on the readings from my observation.
The factory system does not have an egt sensor it uses the following methods for engine protection.
From my own personal testing, I believe #8 is the hottest, driver-side rear hole.
01-31-2008, 06:16 PM
#45
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thanks Albert...That what I do reseach but like to know opinions from people who know more then ME...I have changed my ECU file may be 10-15 times now to get the best results...We looked at Kleemann and Evotech programs as well...but got best results from doing our own programs from the scratch...
I dnot know if you will understand ME but how many "knocks" is OK with E55 ???
I dnot know if you will understand ME but how many "knocks" is OK with E55 ???
No knocks is ok. Use the stardiagnostic to read the knock sensor history, if it has not activated it is okay especially in your case. You crazy Russians run from 20 to 180 mph on public streets all the time.
. You can check compression all around and especially look at 7-8 which are the hottest if you have never done so.
01-31-2008, 06:59 PM
#46
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Thanks Albert...That what I do reseach but like to know opinions from people who know more then ME...I have changed my ECU file may be 10-15 times now to get the best results...We looked at Kleemann and Evotech programs as well...but got best results from doing our own programs from the scratch...
I dnot know if you will understand ME but how many "knocks" is OK with E55 ???
I dnot know if you will understand ME but how many "knocks" is OK with E55 ???
Check it out.
02-02-2008, 06:04 PM
#47
MBWorld Fanatic!
Once had one old version of ECU...Kleamann tech said that my car knocks 7 or 8 I cant remember or he says with their ECU its knocks 3-4...I dont know what a hell does that MEAN
