Who has the best deal on chip tuning?
02-10-2008, 09:46 AM
#26
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2003 S-600
And therein lies the rub. At this time, the software to flash our ECU is all proprietary and still closely guarded to my knowledge. If these companies took the time to reverse engineer the ECU in order to be able to flash it, they certainly deserve the right to charge for their work and recoup their R&D costs as well as make some money, but what we, the community, really need is either:
1) A reasonable licensing scheme such that the tools to edit the maps and flash the ECU could be put in the hands of local tuners. I don't know if companies like Powerchips allow this or who else actually makes the software tools for editing and flashing and what the initial investment would be (in hardware/software/licensing fees) for a tuner who wants to work on our cars.
or:
2) A real enthusiast or group thereof who's primary motivation is learning and helping the community instead of pure profit to release tools to allow Joe user to flash the ECU themselves. This has happened in the JDM market with the release of OpenECU.
It's amazing what happened in that market once those tools were released. People could get down to the business of tuning and really learning how to optimize the performance of those engines while the folks just in the market to gouge people on pricey proprietary flashes disappeared. Real tuners survived because it shifts the value to the actual quality of the tune instead of simply the possession of the tools to flash it to the ECU.
As stated above and many other places, tuning is really not a secret black art. Any competent tuner could tune our cars with the right tools. Every engine is a little bit different, but the basics of timing and fueling are the pretty much the same for every four stroke gasoline engine on the planet ... Renntech and others are not in possession of any particular magic that makes them exclusively able to tune our cars.
In fact the only thing they really have at the end of the day that others don't are proprietary tools that they guard close to their chest so that they can continue to milk he market for thousands per tune that cost them minutes to implement (once the tune is created).
1) A reasonable licensing scheme such that the tools to edit the maps and flash the ECU could be put in the hands of local tuners. I don't know if companies like Powerchips allow this or who else actually makes the software tools for editing and flashing and what the initial investment would be (in hardware/software/licensing fees) for a tuner who wants to work on our cars.
or:
2) A real enthusiast or group thereof who's primary motivation is learning and helping the community instead of pure profit to release tools to allow Joe user to flash the ECU themselves. This has happened in the JDM market with the release of OpenECU.
It's amazing what happened in that market once those tools were released. People could get down to the business of tuning and really learning how to optimize the performance of those engines while the folks just in the market to gouge people on pricey proprietary flashes disappeared. Real tuners survived because it shifts the value to the actual quality of the tune instead of simply the possession of the tools to flash it to the ECU.
As stated above and many other places, tuning is really not a secret black art. Any competent tuner could tune our cars with the right tools. Every engine is a little bit different, but the basics of timing and fueling are the pretty much the same for every four stroke gasoline engine on the planet ... Renntech and others are not in possession of any particular magic that makes them exclusively able to tune our cars.
In fact the only thing they really have at the end of the day that others don't are proprietary tools that they guard close to their chest so that they can continue to milk he market for thousands per tune that cost them minutes to implement (once the tune is created).
Its called a monopoly.. If I had access to the proper hardware to flash the ECU I too would milk the consumer for all they are worth.. Its called supply and demand.. The problem for them is when you get one computer geek/that particular car nut that refuses to pay thousands upon thousands of dollars for a chip.. He will find a way to do what these big companies are doing and then market it for ridiculously cheap just to stick it to them.. Then you watch the companies slash their prices, go out of buisness or come straight out and give 600 reasons (usually bashing the hell out of the person who had the initiative to create something for the betterment of the community) why you should pay $2500 for their chip vs. $500 for his flashing hardware..
Then again there are starving Ferarri gas tanks in Palmetto Beach that need these chips to survive
02-10-2008, 07:25 PM
#27
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GT-R
The problem for them is when you get one computer geek/that particular car nut that refuses to pay thousands upon thousands of dollars for a chip.. He will find a way to do what these big companies are doing and then market it for ridiculously cheap just to stick it to them..
02-10-2008, 10:31 PM
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02-11-2008, 02:59 AM
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I just had to click on this thread to see all the replies, i figured some would be interesting and i was right when i saw CWW's post!
02-11-2008, 03:13 AM
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E63 P30, CL500 Sport
So in other words I would have weeks if not months of downtime, not to mention the cost of dyno time to get a final tune? It would be more cost effective to ship the car to FL then.. I would be able to accomplish the same thing on the dyno in a matter of hours if I had the proper tuning hardware and software..
02-12-2008, 10:07 AM
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2015 S212
Has RennTech figured out the load limiter on the cars? If not, then their tune can't help at the top end, even with the 168mm. If they are offering a custom tune AND know how to change parameters, then sure ship it on. Other than that, why?
Who at RennTech is even qualified? The CFO?
Who at RennTech is even qualified? The CFO?
02-12-2008, 01:02 PM
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E63 P30, CL500 Sport
Has RennTech figured out the load limiter on the cars? If not, then their tune can't help at the top end, even with the 168mm. If they are offering a custom tune AND know how to change parameters, then sure ship it on. Other than that, why?
Who at RennTech is even qualified? The CFO?
Who at RennTech is even qualified? The CFO?
I am not sure where RennTech stands on the load-limiter issue, but I think they believe it is not a problem with the 168mm pulley. I know many have experienced problems with the bigger pulleys, but with the standard 168mm pulley (smallest size) and proper cooling package, the custom tuning shouldn't have any problems to do it's magic
02-12-2008, 02:07 PM
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2006 E55
I've shown my latest dyno to Jeff at Renntech. The torque is all messed up and looks like a roller coaster.
He suggested finding a different gas station, or using 100 octane.
not much help there.
He suggested finding a different gas station, or using 100 octane.
not much help there.
02-12-2008, 02:16 PM
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yeah, what sticks is that its fine at high RPM, its just mid range is where the problem is.
The first time they saw it, they said it was cooling issues. After I told them the dealer confirmed the pump was fine, now its gas quality.
The first time they saw it, they said it was cooling issues. After I told them the dealer confirmed the pump was fine, now its gas quality.
02-12-2008, 03:32 PM
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E63 P30, CL500 Sport
Did they give you any other suggestions what it might be?
Are they maybe thinking that it's not the load limiter since the top-end is fine and only the mid-range is messed-up?
02-12-2008, 03:49 PM
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2006 E55
They havent given any other suggestions. They said it appears the car is pulling timing, but dont know why. So thats why he suggested the gas.
I use Shell or Chevron, Im sure quality doesnt get much better.
02-12-2008, 04:27 PM
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I dont use race gas in my car, and I dont feel like I should have to. I use the highest available (91).
They havent given any other suggestions. They said it appears the car is pulling timing, but dont know why. So thats why he suggested the gas.
I use Shell or Chevron, Im sure quality doesnt get much better.
They havent given any other suggestions. They said it appears the car is pulling timing, but dont know why. So thats why he suggested the gas.
I use Shell or Chevron, Im sure quality doesnt get much better.
Once you get up to speed, it's a non-issue because power output and rate of acceleration start decreasing.
Refusing to even acknowledge that as a possibility is ignoring the 800lb gorilla in the room...
02-12-2008, 07:19 PM
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E63 P30, CL500 Sport
Ya, but you would probably be a lot MORE likely (not less) to hit a load-limiter at your low-to-mid RPM range, since that's where torque peaks...
Once you get up to speed, it's a non-issue because power output and rate of acceleration start decreasing.
Refusing to even acknowledge that as a possibility is ignoring the 800lb gorilla in the room...
Once you get up to speed, it's a non-issue because power output and rate of acceleration start decreasing.
Refusing to even acknowledge that as a possibility is ignoring the 800lb gorilla in the room...
But I do agree with you. I think he should dyno the car with 100 octane just to rule the gas part out. I believe the gas will help, as it did on my C32, but not by too much.
02-12-2008, 08:53 PM
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2006 E55
yeah, the point is that even if it does work it still means my software isnt right and still needs to be fixed. Im not going to put 100 octane in my tank every time.
If it doesnt fix the problem, then something is still not correct and the software needs to be fixed.
either scenario, software is wrong, and not being fixed.
If it doesnt fix the problem, then something is still not correct and the software needs to be fixed.
either scenario, software is wrong, and not being fixed.
02-12-2008, 09:16 PM
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Shipping a car from here (California) to Florida in a covered truck through a reptuable (and fully insured) transport company would cost $900 one way; so that is a total of $1800. In contrast, shipping the ECU back and forth 2 to 3 times will cost you about $200 even if you use overnight shipping everytime. Also, this can all be done within a week to a week and a half.
I dont know what shop you use but here in my area I would have to make an appointment to dyno the car every time I got the ECU back.. Which would add considerably to that week, week and a half of downtime estimate.. In the end between shipping and accumulated dyo time it would cost the same as shipping the car out of state (im not buying it will only take 2 to 3 dyno pulls to get it right. Thats NEVER the case if you want a good quality tune) You cannot beat a good 5-6 hour dyno session if you want it done right.. And the most cost effective way to do that is to have the hardware and software to do it yourself..
02-14-2008, 09:51 AM
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2015 S212
yeah, the point is that even if it does work it still means my software isnt right and still needs to be fixed. Im not going to put 100 octane in my tank every time.
If it doesnt fix the problem, then something is still not correct and the software needs to be fixed.
either scenario, software is wrong, and not being fixed.
If it doesnt fix the problem, then something is still not correct and the software needs to be fixed.
either scenario, software is wrong, and not being fixed.
02-14-2008, 10:07 AM
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2003 E55 AMG
Charles,
Bring your car to Vadim.. Have a third party look it over.. Jeremy will look at the ECU and SHOW you what is wrong.. If there is a problem with the ECU tune, he will fix it. Once he makes the tweaks and Vadim puts it on the dyno and you get the "AFTER" dyno, you can go back to Renntech and show them what was wrong with the tune and prove it was their programming.
Then at least you will have some leverage.. right now, there is no proof 100% that shows its their software that is causing the problem. If they dont want to take the time to diagnose it for you, let Vadim do it.. It will cost you money out of pocket, but at least the aggravation and headaches will be over with and you can enjoy your car.
We've got a few Evotech cars that are scheduling time to go in and have their ECUs remapped.. If you need some help with it, do it sooner rather than later.
Bring your car to Vadim.. Have a third party look it over.. Jeremy will look at the ECU and SHOW you what is wrong.. If there is a problem with the ECU tune, he will fix it. Once he makes the tweaks and Vadim puts it on the dyno and you get the "AFTER" dyno, you can go back to Renntech and show them what was wrong with the tune and prove it was their programming.
Then at least you will have some leverage.. right now, there is no proof 100% that shows its their software that is causing the problem. If they dont want to take the time to diagnose it for you, let Vadim do it.. It will cost you money out of pocket, but at least the aggravation and headaches will be over with and you can enjoy your car.
We've got a few Evotech cars that are scheduling time to go in and have their ECUs remapped.. If you need some help with it, do it sooner rather than later.
yeah, the point is that even if it does work it still means my software isnt right and still needs to be fixed. Im not going to put 100 octane in my tank every time.
If it doesnt fix the problem, then something is still not correct and the software needs to be fixed.
either scenario, software is wrong, and not being fixed.
If it doesnt fix the problem, then something is still not correct and the software needs to be fixed.
either scenario, software is wrong, and not being fixed.
02-14-2008, 11:41 AM
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Charles,
Bring your car to Vadim.. Have a third party look it over.. Jeremy will look at the ECU and SHOW you what is wrong.. If there is a problem with the ECU tune, he will fix it. Once he makes the tweaks and Vadim puts it on the dyno and you get the "AFTER" dyno, you can go back to Renntech and show them what was wrong with the tune and prove it was their programming.
Bring your car to Vadim.. Have a third party look it over.. Jeremy will look at the ECU and SHOW you what is wrong.. If there is a problem with the ECU tune, he will fix it. Once he makes the tweaks and Vadim puts it on the dyno and you get the "AFTER" dyno, you can go back to Renntech and show them what was wrong with the tune and prove it was their programming.
did you get my PM about the box?
