Anyone dyno with just ASP pulley and no software?
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From: Ventura County USA
'06 E55, '05 SLK55, a few others
No, the pulley without a tune does work, but it does take a few miles to get the stock ECU to figure out the extra boost. It just doesn't make as much power/torque as the pulley plus tune. Hamans car is doing exactly what mine did. Just slapping on the pulley and immediately re-dynoing the car doesn't show much benefit. My very first pull with the Kleemann pulley alone showed a 2 HP loss, but more torque. It did get better, but never equal to the pulley plus a tune. My car is a 2006 that has had the recall flash.
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From: Kuwait
CLS55 2006, CLS 63S 2015
No, the pulley without a tune does work, but it does take a few miles to get the stock ECU to figure out the extra boost. It just doesn't make as much power/torque as the pulley plus tune. Hamans car is doing exactly what mine did. Just slapping on the pulley and immediately re-dynoing the car doesn't show much benefit. My very first pull with the Kleemann pulley alone showed a 2 HP loss, but more torque. It did get better, but never equal to the pulley plus a tune. My car is a 2006 that has had the recall flash.
if so what did you get?
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From: Ventura County USA
'06 E55, '05 SLK55, a few others
Unfortunately, I didn't get it dyno'd again at Evosport, so it's hard to say what the exact gains were, but about 15 HP, 30 TQ on a different machine. Others might get more, I started out pretty high on the power scale at 435 HP, 485 TQ totally stock.
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From: Kuwait
CLS55 2006, CLS 63S 2015
Not pointing fingers or anything, its just people are dynoing and are not getting numebrs the expect, some are losing it! and a few pulleyed car races seem to be worse then stock.
Seems neglecting ECU is not wise and i can name three that have gotten hunge gains with ecu,mind you they are heavily modded, but still goes to show.
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From: Southern Cali (Ontario)
so in esence you do not actuly know for sure the the few hundred miles qoute actuly does anything other then butt dyno...
Not pointing fingers or anything, its just people are dynoing and are not getting numebrs the expect, some are losing it! and a few pulleyed car races seem to be worse then stock.
Seems neglecting ECU is not wise and i can name three that have gotten hunge gains with ecu,mind you they are heavily modded, but still goes to show.
Not pointing fingers or anything, its just people are dynoing and are not getting numebrs the expect, some are losing it! and a few pulleyed car races seem to be worse then stock.
Seems neglecting ECU is not wise and i can name three that have gotten hunge gains with ecu,mind you they are heavily modded, but still goes to show.
How much HP with just a pulley alone? it varies. We do know that installing ASP without a bigger HE (not just a pump) is really useless. Better to be stock.
Probably installing K or Evo or Renntech will make more HP, since it pushed less boost than ASP and cooling mods is not as critical.
Now installing ASP with bigger HE and keeping everything the same should yield results. maybe 10RWHP and 30RWTQ maybe more.
The only other car I remember with HE and ASP had also 20's.. and it showed no gains.
If the ECU's were cheaper and MB woud not flash our cars every so often..I would do it.
But it seems it would be another thing to worry about....which version of ECU, send the ECU back.. ensure you are making power after the flash.
Even if the 2nd air pump flash is mostly behind now.. you never what new flash may appear.
I want an ECU flash.. but not with those prices and without including dyno's.
LET is now doing ECU flashes for $600. Which is inline with the current retail an wholesale prices of E55's.
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From: Vegas
'21 GLC63, '19 M5
This has been discussed in great lenghts with many knowledgeable people sharing and explaining. There were many examples with graphs, testimonies and flames. If you do a search ALL your questions will be answered... I promise. In one afternoon you will know everything there is to know about ASP and Tune if you just take the time to read.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,597
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From: Kuwait
CLS55 2006, CLS 63S 2015
This has been discussed in great lenghts with many knowledgeable people sharing and explaining. There were many examples with graphs, testimonies and flames. If you do a search ALL your questions will be answered... I promise. In one afternoon you will know everything there is to know about ASP and Tune if you just take the time to read.
Member
Joined: Sep 2006
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From: San Francisco
AMG's
The pulley doesnt make your car run richer. Your ECU knows exactly how much air is getting to the engine through the mass airflow meter and can compensate for it. The oxygen sensor is also there to confirm it.
Even with the stock pulley, the boost varies due to temperature and pressure changes and the ECU can handle more boost. It doesnt get confused. If it did you'd be **** out of luck.
The calibration is already programmed for more boost and the ECU does exactly what its programmed to do when it sees more boost. The only question is: Does it have the most efficient calibration for that boost level?
Thats up to your tuner.
Even with the stock pulley, the boost varies due to temperature and pressure changes and the ECU can handle more boost. It doesnt get confused. If it did you'd be **** out of luck.
The calibration is already programmed for more boost and the ECU does exactly what its programmed to do when it sees more boost. The only question is: Does it have the most efficient calibration for that boost level?
Thats up to your tuner.
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Out Of Control!!
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 13,394
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From: San Diego
2015 S212
The pulley doesnt make your car run richer. Your ECU knows exactly how much air is getting to the engine through the mass airflow meter and can compensate for it. The oxygen sensor is also there to confirm it.
Even with the stock pulley, the boost varies due to temperature and pressure changes and the ECU can handle more boost. It doesnt get confused. If it did you'd be **** out of luck.
The calibration is already programmed for more boost and the ECU does exactly what its programmed to do when it sees more boost. The only question is: Does it have the most efficient calibration for that boost level?
Thats up to your tuner.
Even with the stock pulley, the boost varies due to temperature and pressure changes and the ECU can handle more boost. It doesnt get confused. If it did you'd be **** out of luck.
The calibration is already programmed for more boost and the ECU does exactly what its programmed to do when it sees more boost. The only question is: Does it have the most efficient calibration for that boost level?
Thats up to your tuner.
The ASP pulley DEFINITELY makes the car run richer up top. It isn't a matter of the ECU compensating. I am a little confused. You say that the ECU can "handle" more psi and that if it did not we would be shut out of luck? I get what you are trying to say, and yes the ecu can make adjustments AS LONG AS ALL PARAMETERS ARE TO ITS LIKING. Boost happens to be a parameter that the ECU has a lock on. As with any ECU, its defensive mechanism is to dump fuel (making it RICH) when things go out of its control.
The slightly oversized pulleys do fine until top end, which is where they hit the 14psi limit. That is why the top end dyno graphs look like crap from most people that think they have a strong one.
The larger pulleys like ASP and even bigger VRP simply need the tune, because they blast into the 14psis QUICK. You get more dig, but the car just dies at about 80.
Follow your data, people and quit talking so much theory. The dyno charts and datalogging tell the tale, but everyone just wants to know peak numbers.
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From: Los Angeles, CA
2005 E55
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'14 ML BT
Take a look at the AF in run 11 in the graph found here.
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From: Southern Cali (Ontario)
Theory, you may be right; but reality.....you are waaaaayyyy offf!!
The ASP pulley DEFINITELY makes the car run richer up top. It isn't a matter of the ECU compensating. I am a little confused. You say that the ECU can "handle" more psi and that if it did not we would be shut out of luck? I get what you are trying to say, and yes the ecu can make adjustments AS LONG AS ALL PARAMETERS ARE TO ITS LIKING. Boost happens to be a parameter that the ECU has a lock on. As with any ECU, its defensive mechanism is to dump fuel (making it RICH) when things go out of its control.
The slightly oversized pulleys do fine until top end, which is where they hit the 14psi limit. That is why the top end dyno graphs look like crap from most people that think they have a strong one.
The larger pulleys like ASP and even bigger VRP simply need the tune, because they blast into the 14psis QUICK. You get more dig, but the car just dies at about 80.
Follow your data, people and quit talking so much theory. The dyno charts and datalogging tell the tale, but everyone just wants to know peak numbers.
The ASP pulley DEFINITELY makes the car run richer up top. It isn't a matter of the ECU compensating. I am a little confused. You say that the ECU can "handle" more psi and that if it did not we would be shut out of luck? I get what you are trying to say, and yes the ecu can make adjustments AS LONG AS ALL PARAMETERS ARE TO ITS LIKING. Boost happens to be a parameter that the ECU has a lock on. As with any ECU, its defensive mechanism is to dump fuel (making it RICH) when things go out of its control.
The slightly oversized pulleys do fine until top end, which is where they hit the 14psi limit. That is why the top end dyno graphs look like crap from most people that think they have a strong one.
The larger pulleys like ASP and even bigger VRP simply need the tune, because they blast into the 14psis QUICK. You get more dig, but the car just dies at about 80.
Follow your data, people and quit talking so much theory. The dyno charts and datalogging tell the tale, but everyone just wants to know peak numbers.
I agree..
but not sure falling flat above 80mph..
its more related to RPM power band than a speed.
I'm money anything under 5k RPM.. therefore in theory.. as long as I'm on my power band.. the car will keep on pulling.
its when nearing the end of each gear is where the "flat power" really is felt.. but if you shift a bit earlier and let the torque from 2k to 4k keep the car moving.. its not a problem.
Is my car in need of another 30RWHP from 5k to 6.2K RPM.. Yes.. but I can live without it right now. Specially since its really hot and I would not be able to enjoy my tuning right now.
Probably will wait on my ECU tuning towards the end of Summer..
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,597
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From: Kuwait
CLS55 2006, CLS 63S 2015
I agree..
but not sure falling flat above 80mph..
its more related to RPM power band than a speed.
I'm money anything under 5k RPM.. therefore in theory.. as long as I'm on my power band.. the car will keep on pulling.
its when nearing the end of each gear is where the "flat power" really is felt.. but if you shift a bit earlier and let the torque from 2k to 4k keep the car moving.. its not a problem.
Is my car in need of another 30RWHP from 5k to 6.2K RPM.. Yes.. but I can live without it right now. Specially since its really hot and I would not be able to enjoy my tuning right now.
Probably will wait on my ECU tuning towards the end of Summer..
but not sure falling flat above 80mph..
its more related to RPM power band than a speed.
I'm money anything under 5k RPM.. therefore in theory.. as long as I'm on my power band.. the car will keep on pulling.
its when nearing the end of each gear is where the "flat power" really is felt.. but if you shift a bit earlier and let the torque from 2k to 4k keep the car moving.. its not a problem.
Is my car in need of another 30RWHP from 5k to 6.2K RPM.. Yes.. but I can live without it right now. Specially since its really hot and I would not be able to enjoy my tuning right now.
Probably will wait on my ECU tuning towards the end of Summer..
Just some food for thought.
Some cars (55k) actually still pull at 6k RPM
Max bhp figures are made at 6k rpm by MB them selves are they not?
Again data & facts are your friends and theory talk is that till proven correct.
Maybe you guys need to look at the actual pros and cons to the mods you have.
Example (ASP pulley):
- Generates lots more heat (increased boost)
- Runs the car richer
- Some cases shows decrease in HP, but pump in trq(which is the umf you are all probably feeling at low speeds)
- Stock ECU acts up & will most likely need a tune to run it properly
- Belt shredding cases
- consistancy of power avilible
- Effects before & after MB recall software
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,466
Likes: 10
From: Southern Cali (Ontario)
Just some food for thought.
Some cars (55k) actually still pull at 6k RPM
Max bhp figures are made at 6k rpm by MB them selves are they not?
Again data & facts are your friends and theory talk is that till proven correct.
Maybe you guys need to look at the actual pros and cons to the mods you have.
Example (ASP pulley):
Some cars (55k) actually still pull at 6k RPM
Max bhp figures are made at 6k rpm by MB them selves are they not?
Again data & facts are your friends and theory talk is that till proven correct.
Maybe you guys need to look at the actual pros and cons to the mods you have.
Example (ASP pulley):
- Generates lots more heat (increased boost)
- Runs the car richer
- Some cases shows decrease in HP, but pump in trq(which is the umf you are all probably feeling at low speeds)
- Stock ECU acts up & will most likely need a tune to run it properly
- Belt shredding cases
- consistancy of power avilible
- Effects before & after MB recall software
100%, I posted based on facts.
https://mbworld.org/forums/w211-amg/243290-dyno-aa-ecu.html
I only speak of what Hamman69 posted on the exact set up I have.
He starts looking power at 5K RPM with Pulley ONLY and Pulley and ECU.
Even with software by AA.. he still does not have the peak HP as other tunes.. say VRP.
No Belt Shredding is not a comon problem. Has it happen.. Yes. But that was one case that I remember in the past year that was directly linked to the ASP pulley. There have been other pulleys that failed such as Idler pulley being bent or bearings failing.
I have constant power available. No hick ups.
I have had 2 Secondary Air pump recalls.. and car runs better after the flashes.
The only CON I have.. I don't have the upper end pull to the 6200 RPM as stock.. aside from that.. I'm all good.
The only fix will be to tune the ECU.. that is it, plain as vanilla.
Last edited by TopGun32; May 19, 2008 at 07:27 PM.
Out Of Control!!
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 13,394
Likes: 6
From: San Diego
2015 S212
I agree..
but not sure falling flat above 80mph..
its more related to RPM power band than a speed.
I'm money anything under 5k RPM.. therefore in theory.. as long as I'm on my power band.. the car will keep on pulling.
its when nearing the end of each gear is where the "flat power" really is felt.. but if you shift a bit earlier and let the torque from 2k to 4k keep the car moving.. its not a problem.
Is my car in need of another 30RWHP from 5k to 6.2K RPM.. Yes.. but I can live without it right now. Specially since its really hot and I would not be able to enjoy my tuning right now.
Probably will wait on my ECU tuning towards the end of Summer..
but not sure falling flat above 80mph..
its more related to RPM power band than a speed.
I'm money anything under 5k RPM.. therefore in theory.. as long as I'm on my power band.. the car will keep on pulling.
its when nearing the end of each gear is where the "flat power" really is felt.. but if you shift a bit earlier and let the torque from 2k to 4k keep the car moving.. its not a problem.
Is my car in need of another 30RWHP from 5k to 6.2K RPM.. Yes.. but I can live without it right now. Specially since its really hot and I would not be able to enjoy my tuning right now.
Probably will wait on my ECU tuning towards the end of Summer..
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,359
Likes: 6
ML550
From the MB website:
Net power 469 hp @ 6,100 rpm
Net torque 516 lb-ft. @ 2,650 - 4,500 rpm
For normal driving, the torque rpm range is vastly more significant from a driving enjoyment standpoint than where peak HP occurs. You encounter the peak torque range in daily driving; you're much less likely to be hitting 6,100 rpm on a daily basis in normal driving and even when you do, it's only for brief intervals. It's the enigine torque that makes the E55 driving experience so enjoyable.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,958
Likes: 1
From: Ventura County USA
'06 E55, '05 SLK55, a few others
so in esence you do not actuly know for sure the the few hundred miles qoute actuly does anything other then butt dyno...
Not pointing fingers or anything, its just people are dynoing and are not getting numebrs the expect, some are losing it! and a few pulleyed car races seem to be worse then stock.
Seems neglecting ECU is not wise and i can name three that have gotten hunge gains with ecu,mind you they are heavily modded, but still goes to show.
Not pointing fingers or anything, its just people are dynoing and are not getting numebrs the expect, some are losing it! and a few pulleyed car races seem to be worse then stock.
Seems neglecting ECU is not wise and i can name three that have gotten hunge gains with ecu,mind you they are heavily modded, but still goes to show.
Member
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
From: San Francisco
AMG's
Member
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
From: San Francisco
AMG's
Theory, you may be right; but reality.....you are waaaaayyyy offf!!
The ASP pulley DEFINITELY makes the car run richer up top. It isn't a matter of the ECU compensating. I am a little confused. You say that the ECU can "handle" more psi and that if it did not we would be shut out of luck? I get what you are trying to say, and yes the ecu can make adjustments AS LONG AS ALL PARAMETERS ARE TO ITS LIKING. Boost happens to be a parameter that the ECU has a lock on. As with any ECU, its defensive mechanism is to dump fuel (making it RICH) when things go out of its control.
The slightly oversized pulleys do fine until top end, which is where they hit the 14psi limit. That is why the top end dyno graphs look like crap from most people that think they have a strong one.
The larger pulleys like ASP and even bigger VRP simply need the tune, because they blast into the 14psis QUICK. You get more dig, but the car just dies at about 80.
Follow your data, people and quit talking so much theory. The dyno charts and datalogging tell the tale, but everyone just wants to know peak numbers.
The ASP pulley DEFINITELY makes the car run richer up top. It isn't a matter of the ECU compensating. I am a little confused. You say that the ECU can "handle" more psi and that if it did not we would be shut out of luck? I get what you are trying to say, and yes the ecu can make adjustments AS LONG AS ALL PARAMETERS ARE TO ITS LIKING. Boost happens to be a parameter that the ECU has a lock on. As with any ECU, its defensive mechanism is to dump fuel (making it RICH) when things go out of its control.
The slightly oversized pulleys do fine until top end, which is where they hit the 14psi limit. That is why the top end dyno graphs look like crap from most people that think they have a strong one.
The larger pulleys like ASP and even bigger VRP simply need the tune, because they blast into the 14psis QUICK. You get more dig, but the car just dies at about 80.
Follow your data, people and quit talking so much theory. The dyno charts and datalogging tell the tale, but everyone just wants to know peak numbers.
Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not saying your car wont run rich. My point is that the ECU doesnt freak out because it sees more boost and you don't NEED an ECU with the pulley upgrade. You definately can be better off with a different ECU calibration. Can also be worse. Depending on who wrote the calibration. So Fast55 has a point. How do you know?
The calibration is simply a map with instructions plotted at different coordinates that correspond to RPM and Load (vacuum or boost). If the boost is all the way to the high side then the ECU does what its programmed to do. Everything on the right side of the graph is rich because rich is safe. Boost isnt the only thing that will cause more fuel to be used. High intake and coolant temperatures and extreme low temperatures are programmed rich too.
So I'm not saying the stock calibration is the best calibration for a modified car, but I'm a mechanic and a factory trained EMS tuner, I routinely tune turbo cars running 30+ PSI and I'm completely comfortable running my E55 on the ASP pulley on the stock calibration.
For the record though, I completely agree that theres power to be gained.
Last edited by DChan415; May 22, 2008 at 11:21 PM.
Out Of Control!!
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 13,394
Likes: 6
From: San Diego
2015 S212
Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not saying your car wont run rich. My point is that the ECU doesnt freak out because it sees more boost and you don't NEED an ECU with the pulley upgrade. You definately can be better off with a different ECU calibration. Can also be worse. Depending on who wrote the calibration. So Fast55 has a point. How do you know?
The calibration is simply a map with instructions plotted at different coordinates that correspond to RPM and Load (vacuum or boost). If the boost is all the way to the high side then the ECU does what its programmed to do. Everything on the right side of the graph is rich because rich is safe. Boost isnt the only thing that will cause more fuel to be used. High intake and coolant temperatures and extreme low temperatures are programmed rich too.
So I'm not saying the stock calibration is the best calibration for a modified car, but I'm a mechanic and a factory trained EMS tuner, I routinely tune turbo cars running 30+ PSI and I'm completely comfortable running my E55 on the ASP pulley on the stock calibration.
For the record though, I completely agree that theres power to be gained.
The calibration is simply a map with instructions plotted at different coordinates that correspond to RPM and Load (vacuum or boost). If the boost is all the way to the high side then the ECU does what its programmed to do. Everything on the right side of the graph is rich because rich is safe. Boost isnt the only thing that will cause more fuel to be used. High intake and coolant temperatures and extreme low temperatures are programmed rich too.
So I'm not saying the stock calibration is the best calibration for a modified car, but I'm a mechanic and a factory trained EMS tuner, I routinely tune turbo cars running 30+ PSI and I'm completely comfortable running my E55 on the ASP pulley on the stock calibration.
For the record though, I completely agree that theres power to be gained.
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,406
Likes: 1
From: Mia
2005 E 55
so in esence you do not actuly know for sure the the few hundred miles qoute actuly does anything other then butt dyno...
Not pointing fingers or anything, its just people are dynoing and are not getting numebrs the expect, some are losing it! and a few pulleyed car races seem to be worse then stock.
Seems neglecting ECU is not wise and i can name three that have gotten hunge gains with ecu,mind you they are heavily modded, but still goes to show.
Not pointing fingers or anything, its just people are dynoing and are not getting numebrs the expect, some are losing it! and a few pulleyed car races seem to be worse then stock.
Seems neglecting ECU is not wise and i can name three that have gotten hunge gains with ecu,mind you they are heavily modded, but still goes to show.
Last edited by rflow306; May 23, 2008 at 10:00 PM.
