Tuner performance comparisons:
Thread Starter
Out Of Control!!
Joined: Sep 2004
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From: San Diego
2015 S212
Tuner performance comparisons:
Now that VRP has had a chance to post all types of data, milestoning certain power points why not do some comparisons to the tried and true brands?
For example, the VR550 is comparable to a stage 1 on most other tuners BUT i don't know that we have much information about the driveability or true laydown power of the tunes. Interesting thing is (and you can look up all the dynos on this forum) the VR550 ACTUALLY made more than that AND I've rarely seen another car with just pulley and ecu show that much gain. Is it the pulley? I doubt it.
I say we set up a track day. If someone will take on getting a 1/4 mile one, I'll get us a day at Willow Springs. We can try to have at least two good events this year and really get into what we are paying for and get to enjoy it a bit as well. The 63 guys have already started a little bit of this so we may as well let them in, too...
For example, the VR550 is comparable to a stage 1 on most other tuners BUT i don't know that we have much information about the driveability or true laydown power of the tunes. Interesting thing is (and you can look up all the dynos on this forum) the VR550 ACTUALLY made more than that AND I've rarely seen another car with just pulley and ecu show that much gain. Is it the pulley? I doubt it.
I say we set up a track day. If someone will take on getting a 1/4 mile one, I'll get us a day at Willow Springs. We can try to have at least two good events this year and really get into what we are paying for and get to enjoy it a bit as well. The 63 guys have already started a little bit of this so we may as well let them in, too...
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From: NJ
2005 E55
I think this is a great idea.
On a related note, I do not know what to think about the level of uncertainty in the aftermarket for our cars. MB does not even make our cars anymore, and tuners have been at it for 5 years. Yet we still can't seem to agree on what works, what doesn't work, what is safe, what is unsafe, etc.
On the one hand, it is great that companies continue to put R&D time into our cars. On the other, I would have hoped that by this point, we would have tried and tested mods and have developed a consensus as to what is effective.
Seems like every other month, there is another tuner getting its nads kicked on this board because one of its products did not perform well.
I would like to think that if I decide tomorrow to add headers, a cooling kit, a pulley and a SAFE ECU tune, I would not come to regret my decision in three months when (1) my headers crack, (2) my ECU throws a CEL, (3) my pulley bends, (4) my cooling kit is moving fluid too quickly, etc.
Maybe I was spoiled with a Z06 and a vast array of tested and proven aftermarket products.
On a related note, I do not know what to think about the level of uncertainty in the aftermarket for our cars. MB does not even make our cars anymore, and tuners have been at it for 5 years. Yet we still can't seem to agree on what works, what doesn't work, what is safe, what is unsafe, etc.
On the one hand, it is great that companies continue to put R&D time into our cars. On the other, I would have hoped that by this point, we would have tried and tested mods and have developed a consensus as to what is effective.
Seems like every other month, there is another tuner getting its nads kicked on this board because one of its products did not perform well.
I would like to think that if I decide tomorrow to add headers, a cooling kit, a pulley and a SAFE ECU tune, I would not come to regret my decision in three months when (1) my headers crack, (2) my ECU throws a CEL, (3) my pulley bends, (4) my cooling kit is moving fluid too quickly, etc.
Maybe I was spoiled with a Z06 and a vast array of tested and proven aftermarket products.
Thread Starter
Out Of Control!!
Joined: Sep 2004
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From: San Diego
2015 S212
IMO the real market for performance aftermarkets on the 55K motor is just now beginning. Up until now, the M3 was the mod friendly Euro of choice but with the prices falling on the AMGs they are becoming a bargain platform. Keep in mind that the various tuners cater to a different client and that we go through their distributors, so there is plenty of chance to get ugly. There just aren't enough high mileage modded E55s yet. Last thing, keep in mind that the newer products are geared much more to performance vs looks and that the prices have been cut in half already.
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From: Kuwait
CLS55 2006, CLS 63S 2015
I think this is a great idea.
On a related note, I do not know what to think about the level of uncertainty in the aftermarket for our cars. MB does not even make our cars anymore, and tuners have been at it for 5 years. Yet we still can't seem to agree on what works, what doesn't work, what is safe, what is unsafe, etc.
On the one hand, it is great that companies continue to put R&D time into our cars. On the other, I would have hoped that by this point, we would have tried and tested mods and have developed a consensus as to what is effective.
Seems like every other month, there is another tuner getting its nads kicked on this board because one of its products did not perform well.
I would like to think that if I decide tomorrow to add headers, a cooling kit, a pulley and a SAFE ECU tune, I would not come to regret my decision in three months when (1) my headers crack, (2) my ECU throws a CEL, (3) my pulley bends, (4) my cooling kit is moving fluid too quickly, etc.
Maybe I was spoiled with a Z06 and a vast array of tested and proven aftermarket products.
On a related note, I do not know what to think about the level of uncertainty in the aftermarket for our cars. MB does not even make our cars anymore, and tuners have been at it for 5 years. Yet we still can't seem to agree on what works, what doesn't work, what is safe, what is unsafe, etc.
On the one hand, it is great that companies continue to put R&D time into our cars. On the other, I would have hoped that by this point, we would have tried and tested mods and have developed a consensus as to what is effective.
Seems like every other month, there is another tuner getting its nads kicked on this board because one of its products did not perform well.
I would like to think that if I decide tomorrow to add headers, a cooling kit, a pulley and a SAFE ECU tune, I would not come to regret my decision in three months when (1) my headers crack, (2) my ECU throws a CEL, (3) my pulley bends, (4) my cooling kit is moving fluid too quickly, etc.
Maybe I was spoiled with a Z06 and a vast array of tested and proven aftermarket products.
I am aware of the other issues thanks
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From: Salt Lake City (but not Morm)
2003 E55 & 2014 GL550
off topic but ''my cooling kit is moving fluid too quickly'' who suffered from this?
Had the Johnson hooked up to the stock system without separation and also with my addition of the heat exchanger and separation of the system.
I agree, we need to hammer out what works and what doesn't for the noobs.
Funny how the debate continues and our cars have been discontinued.
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From: NJ
2005 E55
I am not aware of anyone who suffered from the problem. I remember the back and forth on the risk that using a pump that flowed too well would not be the best for cooling because it would not allow sufficient time for the heat to transfer.
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1989 Toyota Tercel EZ - dyno'd @ 70whp/77wtq
Just from a logic perspective, I think higher coolant flow should be better (assuming no additional heat from higher-flow pump and no additional hit from additional friction between coolant and the pipe).
Yes, the time to transfer the heat from engine to coolant is shorter... but wouldn't that also mean:
The coolant passing through also experienced lower temp. increase
==> the coolant and radiator core to stay cooler a lot longer
==> avg. coolant temp over a period of time is lower
==> Temp difference between the engine & coolant over a period of time is larger
==> More heat over a period of time is transferred?
Sorry if that doesn't make any sense at all.
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MBWorld Fanatic!
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From: NJ
2005 E55
Hmmm... I don't know about this. May be a member w/ PhD or MS in Heat Transfer could chime in.
Just from a logic perspective, I think higher coolant flow should be better (assuming no additional heat from higher-flow pump and no additional hit from additional friction between coolant and the pipe).
Yes, the time to transfer the heat from engine to coolant is shorter... but wouldn't that also mean:
The coolant passing through also experienced lower temp. increase
==> the coolant and radiator core to stay cooler a lot longer
==> avg. coolant temp over a period of time is lower
==> Temp difference between the engine & coolant over a period of time is larger
==> More heat over a period of time is transferred?
Sorry if that doesn't make any sense at all.
Just from a logic perspective, I think higher coolant flow should be better (assuming no additional heat from higher-flow pump and no additional hit from additional friction between coolant and the pipe).
Yes, the time to transfer the heat from engine to coolant is shorter... but wouldn't that also mean:
The coolant passing through also experienced lower temp. increase
==> the coolant and radiator core to stay cooler a lot longer
==> avg. coolant temp over a period of time is lower
==> Temp difference between the engine & coolant over a period of time is larger
==> More heat over a period of time is transferred?
Sorry if that doesn't make any sense at all.
I guess in some respects, it is like using a 5-ton air conditioning system when the home is small enough that a 2-ton unit would work. Logic tells you that the larger tonnage is always going to be "better". But the system will not be on long enough to draw the humidity out of the air. So you will be cold and uncomfortable, as opposed to cool and dry.
Feel free to disagree. I don't claim to have the answer. And that is really the point of my first post in the thread. We are all still sort of figuring things out as we go.
Jangy - so sorry for the thread hijack.
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1989 Toyota Tercel EZ - dyno'd @ 70whp/77wtq
No PHD, and I welcome anyone to chime in. But I thought the logic behind the argument was that the fluid was spending too little time in or around the cooling core to get the benefit of the ambient air passing over it. In other words, you continue to cycle hot fluid without giving it time to cool.
And as you know, the bigger the temp difference between the coolant and the engine, the more the heat being transferred from the engine to the coolant.
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From: Southern Cali (Ontario)
I would be interesting in attending.
but Need to save up for the ECU tune with VRP.
Unless we have a few more LET ECU's on the E55 with Dyno info.. I don't see another choice.. unless I go through Powerchip directly but I'm sure they won't offer me VRP's exclusive tune.
but Need to save up for the ECU tune with VRP.
Unless we have a few more LET ECU's on the E55 with Dyno info.. I don't see another choice.. unless I go through Powerchip directly but I'm sure they won't offer me VRP's exclusive tune.
Thread Starter
Out Of Control!!
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From: San Diego
2015 S212
I would be interesting in attending.
but Need to save up for the ECU tune with VRP.
Unless we have a few more LET ECU's on the E55 with Dyno info.. I don't see another choice.. unless I go through Powerchip directly but I'm sure they won't offer me VRP's exclusive tune.
but Need to save up for the ECU tune with VRP.
Unless we have a few more LET ECU's on the E55 with Dyno info.. I don't see another choice.. unless I go through Powerchip directly but I'm sure they won't offer me VRP's exclusive tune.
Make sure you get a tune and a good one. I wouldn't let anyone touch my ecu for the longest time, because I knew how involved it would be. Then, when we started, I figured we could use my car to complete each stage. In the end, I get a car that has had lots of tweaking to it. Vadim is very picky and knows what kind of ride I like. He knows I'm not just about the numbers, but more about teh real-life ride. That is why I went with Powerchip / VRP. At the time, nobody had the TQ limiter code cracked or even cared about it. Now that we will start seeing faster trap speeds, I think others will want more from their tuners.
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From: Tampa, Florida
06 SL65 / 97 993tt /11 Suburban/ 2012 GTR (AMG è la mia Famiglia la Bestia è la mia protezione)
Jangy...just to be clear...Which VR tune did you get? VR550? VR600?
Personally...I can't wait to get my engine back in my car and experience the VR700 tune. I'd love to join you guys...
Personally...I can't wait to get my engine back in my car and experience the VR700 tune. I'd love to join you guys...
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'03 E55, Range Rover Sport Supercharged, Ducati 748R
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From: Tampa, Florida
06 SL65 / 97 993tt /11 Suburban/ 2012 GTR (AMG è la mia Famiglia la Bestia è la mia protezione)
It'll be fun to find out, though...
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From: Kuwait
CLS55 2006, CLS 63S 2015
Thread Starter
Out Of Control!!
Joined: Sep 2004
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From: San Diego
2015 S212
I got both. They used my car to develope the tune, so i went along with building the car up a stage at a time. We did VR550 first, then they did the VR600. I think Vadim is still tweaking the 600 as we speak, but I hope to have it back in a day or so.
Thread Starter
Out Of Control!!
Joined: Sep 2004
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From: San Diego
2015 S212
1 - Take the most up to date MB flash and tune it.
2 - Take whatever is on the car and tune it.
3 - Have an archived file that was made from an older revision of the MB flash.
Here is what I see as the issues with them:
1 - Is the best IMO, but can be a pain if MB is popping out new revs all the time (which they aren't anymore with our cars).
2 - Is a toss up. If your car has been updated with the most recent, then no gains from some tuners.
3 - RISKY business at the least.
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Drives Slowly
I think this is a great idea.
On a related note, I do not know what to think about the level of uncertainty in the aftermarket for our cars. MB does not even make our cars anymore, and tuners have been at it for 5 years. Yet we still can't seem to agree on what works, what doesn't work, what is safe, what is unsafe, etc.
On the one hand, it is great that companies continue to put R&D time into our cars. On the other, I would have hoped that by this point, we would have tried and tested mods and have developed a consensus as to what is effective................
On a related note, I do not know what to think about the level of uncertainty in the aftermarket for our cars. MB does not even make our cars anymore, and tuners have been at it for 5 years. Yet we still can't seem to agree on what works, what doesn't work, what is safe, what is unsafe, etc.
On the one hand, it is great that companies continue to put R&D time into our cars. On the other, I would have hoped that by this point, we would have tried and tested mods and have developed a consensus as to what is effective................
ECU, pully and headers......period, period, period!!!!!
Even with all the other bolt-ons like TB, cams, air-box, HE, etc...ect, no modified E55 (minus nitrous) has done better than 11.3-11.9 @ 121-123mph and you can do that with any K2 or equivalent set-up.
I am anxious to see what some of the new VRP cars will do at the track but at this point nothing has been proven. As far as reliability for the ultra-modified E55s, only time will tell.
In summary: Get an ECU, pulley and headers and call it a day. If you need to go even faster, add nitrous.
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From: Southern Cali (Ontario)
In my mind this is what works and has shown to work consistently:
ECU, pully and headers......period, period, period!!!!!
Even with all the other bolt-ons like TB, cams, air-box, HE, etc...ect, no modified E55 (minus nitrous) has done better than 11.3-11.9 @ 121-123mph and you can do that with any K2 or equivalent set-up.
I am anxious to see what some of the new VRP cars will do at the track but at this point nothing has been proven. As far as reliability for the ultra-modified E55s, only time will tell.
In summary: Get an ECU, pulley and headers and call it a day. If you need to go even faster, add nitrous.
ECU, pully and headers......period, period, period!!!!!
Even with all the other bolt-ons like TB, cams, air-box, HE, etc...ect, no modified E55 (minus nitrous) has done better than 11.3-11.9 @ 121-123mph and you can do that with any K2 or equivalent set-up.
I am anxious to see what some of the new VRP cars will do at the track but at this point nothing has been proven. As far as reliability for the ultra-modified E55s, only time will tell.
In summary: Get an ECU, pulley and headers and call it a day. If you need to go even faster, add nitrous.
but bigger HE with a good pump is probably the icing on the cake.
I guess you call it Stage 2.5!
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From: Mia
2005 E 55
In my mind this is what works and has shown to work consistently:
ECU, pully and headers......period, period, period!!!!!
Even with all the other bolt-ons like TB, cams, air-box, HE, etc...ect, no modified E55 (minus nitrous) has done better than 11.3-11.9 @ 121-123mph and you can do that with any K2 or equivalent set-up.
I am anxious to see what some of the new VRP cars will do at the track but at this point nothing has been proven. As far as reliability for the ultra-modified E55s, only time will tell.
In summary: Get an ECU, pulley and headers and call it a day. If you need to go even faster, add nitrous.
ECU, pully and headers......period, period, period!!!!!
Even with all the other bolt-ons like TB, cams, air-box, HE, etc...ect, no modified E55 (minus nitrous) has done better than 11.3-11.9 @ 121-123mph and you can do that with any K2 or equivalent set-up.
I am anxious to see what some of the new VRP cars will do at the track but at this point nothing has been proven. As far as reliability for the ultra-modified E55s, only time will tell.
In summary: Get an ECU, pulley and headers and call it a day. If you need to go even faster, add nitrous.
Thats why the best way to gauge this kind of performance is to get different cars with different mods to run each other on the same day and track. It will clearly show a pattern that the car making more rwhp ie better mods and tuning will be quicker and trap higher.
Rock put those cams on your car and I will come up to Ohio while the weather is still cold and guarantee you very low 11's at 125+ with me behind the wheel of coarse.
. While you are at it find me a white sl65 with pano roof so I don't have to walk to work anymore.
Last edited by rflow306; Apr 23, 2008 at 06:00 PM.
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From: Chicago, IL
Real Cars
Seriously though, I agree with rock. For your average 55 customer: cooling, pulley, ecu, headers and call it a day. You'll run 120mph in the 1/4 and have plenty of usable power for the street. After those mods the $/hp goes up dramatically...
-m
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06 SL65 / 97 993tt /11 Suburban/ 2012 GTR (AMG è la mia Famiglia la Bestia è la mia protezione)
I think the weather has more to do with it than the actual set-up. For example my car with just the ASP pulley and drag radials ran 11.51 at 121+ and on a very rare 50 deg night at Morosso. I added headers and a 80mm TB and the car ran low 11.3's at 123.80 in 70+ degree weather. My last mods were the cams tried both the evo's and VRP together with the additional reservoir and with the vrp's ran 11.38 at 123.80 in close to 90 deg weather. I remember running very similar et's and mph to Jay e55 who on a much cooler day went on to run 10.90's at 125+. What I'm trying to get at is that under the same weather conditions my latest combo would be a lot faster than my pulley only car.
Thats why the best way to gauge this kind of performance is to get different cars with different mods to run each other on the same day and track. It will clearly show a pattern that the car making more rwhp ie better mods and tuning will be quicker and trap higher.
Rock put those cams on your car and I will come up to Ohio while the weather is still cold and guarantee you very low 11's at 125+ with me behind the wheel of coarse.. While you are at it find me a white sl65 with pano roof so I don't have to walk to work anymore.
Thats why the best way to gauge this kind of performance is to get different cars with different mods to run each other on the same day and track. It will clearly show a pattern that the car making more rwhp ie better mods and tuning will be quicker and trap higher.
Rock put those cams on your car and I will come up to Ohio while the weather is still cold and guarantee you very low 11's at 125+ with me behind the wheel of coarse.
. While you are at it find me a white sl65 with pano roof so I don't have to walk to work anymore.!
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From: Richmond Hill, Ontario
2003 E55 AMG
We are going to have a whole family of 65s soon.. I've been on the hunt for a while.. lol.. Waiting patiently for the right car so I can ****** it up... I dont want pano roof though...
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Drives Slowly
I think the weather has more to do with it than the actual set-up. For example my car with just the ASP pulley and drag radials ran 11.51 at 121+ and on a very rare 50 deg night at Morosso. I added headers and a 80mm TB and the car ran low 11.3's at 123.80 in 70+ degree weather. My last mods were the cams tried both the evo's and VRP together with the additional reservoir and with the vrp's ran 11.38 at 123.80 in close to 90 deg weather. I remember running very similar et's and mph to Jay e55 who on a much cooler day went on to run 10.90's at 125+. What I'm trying to get at is that under the same weather conditions my latest combo would be a lot faster than my pulley only car.
Thats why the best way to gauge this kind of performance is to get different cars with different mods to run each other on the same day and track. It will clearly show a pattern that the car making more rwhp ie better mods and tuning will be quicker and trap higher.
Thats why the best way to gauge this kind of performance is to get different cars with different mods to run each other on the same day and track. It will clearly show a pattern that the car making more rwhp ie better mods and tuning will be quicker and trap higher.
I'd love to see low 11's @125+ and I'm sure that if anyone can extract those #'s out of our cars, it would be you. BTW, do you know where Ohio is? Hint.........it's not in Canada.
White SL65 with Pano? What happened to a CL600/65?
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From: Richmond Hill, Ontario
2003 E55 AMG
You had a change of heart? Your friendly neighbourhood master tech called me the other night and we had a chat... We were both glad to hear that you decided to keep them.
He is looking forward to installing them..
I predict +2mph.. I am hoping the AFR will be friendly ..
Just remember, reset all the adaptations or just disconnect the battery before you fire it up so that the ECU can relearn.
Ask the tech to raise the idle 150rpm unless you want it lopey.
You know where to reach me if you need me.
He is looking forward to installing them..
I predict +2mph.. I am hoping the AFR will be friendly ..
Just remember, reset all the adaptations or just disconnect the battery before you fire it up so that the ECU can relearn.
Ask the tech to raise the idle 150rpm unless you want it lopey.
You know where to reach me if you need me.
