skooby

A Florida man named Scott Weires has canceled the order for his long-awaited Nissan GT-R. Why? It's not that he was disappointed in the car's performance credentials, far from it. The problem is that the GT-R is equipped with a 'black box', similar in theory to the kind found on airplanes to help determine what went wrong in case of an accident or breakdown. By the end of 2012, car buyers won't have a choice as to whether their new car is equipped with a 'black box,' or Electronic Data Recorder -- they will be federally mandated to carry one. These devices track information that could be useful to the manufacturer in determining exactly what is, or has been, going on with a car. There are a few worries, though, that warranty claims could be denied if the automaker, Nissan in this case, deems that the car was being raced or abused in some way or by police or lawyers to determine culpability. Nissan's GT-R carries an on-board recorder that keeps track of the past few day's worth of driving and cannot be disabled. In the case of Scott Weires, an attorney no less, that was enough to look elsewhere. Would it be for you?

W211 BEAST

Yes. I would never want a car that would record what I do. Can you say Big Brother? Thats just wrong. I can understand if a car company wants to do it, but the government shouldnt be able to force them to. I guess the newest car I will ever have is a MY 2011. WTF do I want the police to know what I'm doing for? I guess they'd also be able to know where I am at all times, and if someone happened to end up dead, someone who happpeened to owe me money, just hypothetically, if he was to be found stabbed to death in his bed, the police would be able to look at my blackbox and know where I was at the time? If the hypothetical person was stabbed to death. Hypothetically.

NXtremeJeep

"Black boxes" aka data recorders are definitely not new things on vehicles. I believe most vehicles after 97-88 are equipped with them. The data recorder stores numerous types of data including speed, rpm, application of brakes, seat belt use, etc. These come in handy in very serious motor vehicle accidents and lawsuits that arise from them.

I've heard, complete hearsay, is that the data recorder for the GTR enables Nissan techs to determine the boost levels and air fuel data for days worth of driving. If anything shady is detected they will void the warranty. That's a huge price to pay since most GTR owner plan on doing some type of engine mods.

W211 BEAST

Some? Lol. Any GTR on the road will be twice as fast as a stock one. Anyone buying one of those plans on using it.

lauer87

Car manufacturers have increasingly been putting these "black boxes" in their cars. I remember seeing something about the NTSB or congress it being mandatory by September 2012 or 2013 model year vehicles. The one in the GTR is far more advanced in the data recording, but even the basic ones currently record things like engine speed, vehicle speed, throttle position, etc.; continuously overwriting the information unless an accident occurs (in which case it stores the data). I think I remember seeing it in an Autoweek a few weeks ago, I'll try to find it

Jakpro1

Good friend of mine is a software programmer.

Best line from him, "It's wild, the same guys that program the software are going home and changing into alter egos and creating software to hack it."

Coming soon, "For just 595$, you send us the black box and we'll wipe er clean and they will just think it malfunctioned"

Always another way....always another way....

W211 BEAST

So now I need to pay someone $600 so the dealership wont know that I'm abusing the hell out of the car? (which AMG wants us to do btw). And not only that but I have to take it out of my car and ship it someone who I dont know to fix it?

Can we just take it out of the car and leave it the F out?

splinter

WTLW...http://www.mygtr.com/forum/showthread.php?t=245

lexaltezza

Yeah its not that new. I'm pretty sure my Range has one.

allied107

I don't think this is something new. I had a BMW about 3 years back and I remember the check engine light at come on. My father is in the automotive industry and I took it to his shop he hooked the car up to a machine and found some code being stored in the computer. Apprently at the time the code gets triggered and the cars computer data logs a snap shot of all the cars stats rpm, mph, etc etc. come to find out the light was triggered by a torque converter issue and man I got in trouble for that one cause the data showed I was hot rodding around. My pops was not so happy so from there forward I learned my lesson . I asked him about my current car and he says that it can have the capability of currently storing up to 8 mins of driving data before becoming full. I would be interested if someone could confirm.

dbarrym

Welcome to "1984", 2008 version...

Do a Google on GM, lawsuits, and data logging...some OBD-II equipped GM cars have the ability to store the last minute or so of data (RPM, speed, etc), and lawyers have been obtaining and using this data in accident liability cases.

Stands to reason that additional capability/storage capacity will be used in a similar way, and eventually monitored by law enforcement for revenue generation (i.e., traffic violations). One reason why I avoid GPS phones and toll road transponders.

Call me paranoid, but I am sure it will happen.

PS - Some manufacturers (notably Mitsu and Subaru) have been monitoring online forums, and have connected online users with warranty claims, denying some on the basis that the cars have been (ab)used in violation of warranty terms (i.e no mods or competitive events). to the wise.

Timeless

I can understand the manufacturers keeping an eye out for abuse, but I do not understand the dealerships wanting to not perform warranty work as it makes money for them.

Unless they are paranoid that it will come back as warranty denied later and they are out the money.

Weird...just futher proves you gotta have a good relationship with your dealership and service advisors.

Deltron Zero

Could be worse. Look what they do on the Japanese version-

blackbenzz

They dont get paid anywhere near as much for warranty work as they would if the customer had to pay. Hence the warranty denial

KamzAmg

This was to be expected...i am sure we should all be rdy for worser things than this with the tech improving and all.
..but on the flip side, half of the ppl who will buy these things wont worry bout the warranties.
bad times are coming for mod nuts like myself.

K

damascusE55AMG

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dl...809189970/1065

TMC M5

What if you take a really big magnet to the black box...problem solved?

Tom

MHP

If you're going to hit the black button we can get you 60rw with just a tune on a GT-R.

lauer87

Thats the article I was referring to.

ROCKETW19

hypotheticaly of coarse!

Roman Moronie

The above statement is not entirely accurate, Nissan pays dealers nearly the same hourly labor rate as we would charge a customer. What Nissan does pay less on is that they only cover dealer cost on parts. When we have a customer paying out of his own pocket we also make a profit on the mark-up of the parts, with a Nissan warranty claim we lose that profit margin.

I can tell you that most dealers managment and owners would prefer having the manufacturer cover a claim under warranty vs. denial of warranty, it is usually faster and easier and there is nothing worse for business than an un-happy customer.

I would rather loose out on a couple hundred dollars profit on parts mark-up and know I still have a happy customer that is going to be coming back in 3 or so years to trade his car in for another car from our dealership.

Silververtu

I wish this happens to all the dealerships

Ghostrider

OLDSCHOOLRICE

Mercedes has had this "black box" system you speak of for over a decade now.

Most fault codes that are set in Mercedes computers (anywhere from engine to audio computers) are acompanied by what Mercedes calls "freeze frame" data. The computer logs all kinds of information from what was going on when the fault was stored. Any thing from coolant temp, vehicle speed, how long the engine was running, boost pressure, fuel level, etc... It can be very helpfull in diagnosing faults.

I've been with Mercedes for over 5 years and I have never seen a warranty voided due to information gained from "freeze frame" data. Not that it has never happened, but I've never seen or heard of it happening. Warranty voids with Mercedes are usually pretty obvious modifications.

I have however heard of companies like VW or BMW voiding warranties after seeing boost pressures above factory specs, especially on VW's 2.0T and BWM's 335.

nick 55

I think Oldschoolrice is pretty much correct. The control unit logs he refers to provide MB with a massive amount of data, they do aid in diagnosis, and the only time I have seen a powertrain warranty claim denied was an SLK that recorded a misfire(piston leaving the connecting rod) at 9000rpms when an owner misshifted his 6 speed car and pulled (hard) into second instead of 4th on a downshift. All that data is subjective also to proper battery voltage and control units functioning properly also, if the 5 volt reference signal for sensors is 4.2, your readings could be off by 16% if I did my math right.

Nick