The dyno discussion!!!!
 

If Rodney could be kind enough to post his time slip it would be helpful.

First of all most of us know that trap speeds increase with higher 60's times. I'm pretty sure if he ran a 1.6xx his trap would decrease, by how much I don't know. I witnessed Sal run almost a 2 mph difference (please correct me if I'm wrong) by increasing his 60' by .1-.2. When and if Rodney post up his slips we could compare weather and DA to my runs. From what I've seen so far my car will pickup almost 2 mph for every 1000 feet. Chiromikey has almost the identical gains with his setup.

What do you think about Mike running a 124 at similar DA with 484 rwhp on Dyno Comps DD? Do you also think this dyno is a high reading dyno?

One other correction, I have a 4mm larger TB than the person you speak of. I'm sure you know that the new 82mm TB is the actual size and the 80mm is actually a 78mm. WIth the 82mm I dynode 18 rwhp over the 80mm. This was done without RT airbox. If you take the advertised 10-15 rwhp by RT that puts me right around 33 rwhp over. Let's not forget about my light weight rims and rotors, I'm sure that decreases my overall drive-train loss which puts more power to the ground. Now do you still believe 50 rwhp is that far off? I don't.

EDIT:

Just for a fair comparison could we please take the indivduals best ET and use that trap speed. I'll do the same.

DC's Dyno Dynamics compared to other dyno's is a lower reading dyno. IMO its all about finding a tunable dyno with a good operator. Then stick with that. When people bounce around from dyno to dyno they are always going to make other numbers.

At Dyno-Comp we are not only lucky to have a great owner in Rich, but a guy who knows how to use his equipment. What I've seen first hand many of times is cars having or running into problems on the dyno. This is were Rich really comes into his own. His trouble shooting skills are first class.

Rich has many years experience writing tunes, This really help when he communicates to the Renntech guys in FLA. He can just about tell the Tuners at RENNtech what spots in the map/file need more fuel, timing and what not.

That kind of knowledge of tuning is very hard to come by these days.

So... It comes down to operator experience and good equipment. Granted the DD will brake your heart from time to time, but when you get a custom tune on one... the reward at the track will show the DD superiority over other dynos.

If you are refuring to me with 480whp I'm going for a conservative 11.5 anything better is just gravy. If your talking about Mikey at that power level I would say 11.6-11.3

Sure, I'll dig up my timeslip and dyno and scan 'em both. I'm working out of town right now in Montreal and will be back home Thursday...so I should have 'em up by then.

Alan, you also have Vadim's midsection pipe which I'm sure adds around 10rwhp since it replaces the primaries with hi flow cats and deletes the secondaries. I'm hoping to get under my lift this long weekend to get Vadim's midsection pipe installed and see what I run at the track afterwards.

As you already mentioned, you have the larger tb, renntech airbox, light rims, light rotors, additional reservoir in trunk, and I think a larger pulley (I have the 178mm ASP and I think you have the 180mm ASP) over me so I definitely see why you are running 5 more mph than me. So that means you have a total of 7 ups on me :D. I wish of the day to run a 130mph like you!

Also I think the 80mm TB is actually 80mm and not 78mm. I looked at my old post when I took pics of the 80mm TB and actually used a ruler measuring the actual diameter in some shots. You can find that post here https://mbworld.org/forums/w211-amg/...ckage-vrp.html

the 484 alan is referring to was my rwhp number before the famoso event where i ran 11.24@123.9. considering that alan has backed up his dyno numbers at the track there should be no controversy. while anything is possible, it would be way too absurd to conclude that both that particular dd machine AND the track he's running at happen to have flawed equipment.

Thanks Rodney :y. With the mods I have over you is it really that crazy to believe my car could put down possibly 80 more hp? I don't think so but that's just my opinion. Did you happen to back your numbers up with other runs? The day I ran 130 mph trap it was backed up by several 129 passes and one more 130 trap...I think LOL. The very first thing Chiromikey said to me when I called him the first time I ran a 127 mph trap was "back it up", and I did.

Trust me Rodney I'm not taking anything away from you but I'm just trying to shed some light on this heartbreak dyno Marcus keeps on referring to. I try to stay out of this crap but when he keeps on bringing my name up I just feel the need to post back...:rolf:.

One other thing, my car doesn't stop pulling at 130 it keeps pulling and pulling. I raced a 996 modified TT up to 170 mph and beat it by 4 lengths or so. Just for comparison he raced a modded M6 and beat it up to 170 by 3 lengths.

Mike, if Marcus call BS on mine he has to call it on yours :rolf:.

Typically this wouldn't even be a big deal but it seems that every time someone post up some dyno numbers Marcus comes in and calls BS. This is all based off of his DD at CPR or CPT. It just gets old and he used my name more than once to get his point across.

I promise that every time you see me dyno'ing my car track numbers will soon follow, that's a fact. I guess some people just like to talk about dyno numbers and some like running (not referring to you Marcus). I like running but yet I find myself starting a dyno thread...:rolf::smash:

I'm a believer that every 10 rwhp results in about a 1 mph increase in trap speed for a 3500lb car. So your +5 mph more than I yields your car to be anywhere around 515-530 rwhp. However I don't rely on dyno numbers anyway...I'd rather have trap speeds to prove the car is making some serious hp and your 130 mph proves that for you. For instance on my first dyno run that day I think I got a 440 something, 10 minutes later 2nd run was a 440 something, and on the 3rd run CPT let the car sit for I think around 25 minutes with a fan aimed directly cooling the s/c and it put down the 465. Too much variance if you ask me.

Unfortunately I didn't back my 125mph run. However, all my runs were either done right off the street or back to back. On my 125mph run, I let the car cool down for 30min.

I also don't think Marcus is trying to knock you at all. He's just not that type of person. He's just trying to make sense of it all.

Being that every dyno is different and weather conditions are different for everyone, making sense of dyno numbers is tough...especially for me when my car runs +25 rwhp more on the same day just 25 minutes later. Too many variables if you ask me.

I have personally seen every type of dyno machine vary quite a bit, so comparing two different cars from two different states on two different dynos with different operators and weather conditions becomes somewhat irrelevant. Track numbers tell a much better story especially if the cars are ran at the same time on the same track.

I would definitely understand the doubt if Alan hadn't ran his car at the track, but he did.... he ran at Sacramento (a relatively fast track) and ran at Fontana (one of the worst-conditioned tracks), and he will run at Famoso. His track numbers agree with his dyno numbers, but even if they didn't, track numbers is all what counts. I rather dyno at 100 hp but run 10s than dyno at 1000 hp and run 12s.

I never use to take much emphasis on dyno numbers but when someone post the same things over and over about my car in different threads I feel the need to justify them. I have no hard feeling towards Marcus but I feel a thread was needed to have a full on discussion about this. It seems that every time a West Coast car does something spectacular he chimes in and gives his honest but negative opinion, at least that's the way I read it. Maybe he doesn't mean to come off this way or doesn't care but most of the other west coast guys feel the same as I do. Make no mistake, he has every right to question whatever he wants just as I do.

Variables....:y. That hits it right on the money. For Marcus to always try and compare dyno machines from all around the country is crazy and makes no sense to me. I think DA and track times will paint a better picture of how a car is performing from different parts of the country.

I'm sure once Marcus reads this thread he'll come back firing away like I expect him to. I would expect nothing less from him :rolf:.

EDIT:

Mo, you beat me to it...haha.

Don't forget that there is STD SAE and even shootout mode on dd.every dyno is setup a little different and this is the reason dd made shootout mode.so we can compare numbers on different cars in other places.

I'm not going to keep repeating myself. I think 540rwhp for 130mph is high from my experience on DD. I like to use Rodney as an example because he is an honest and knowledgeable guy who has a very well documented car and posts on here, but he isn't the only example.

I think if Alan's car were to dyno at Fluid or at CPT, he'd make around 500rwhp. He gets some mph from big cooling tank, lightweight wheels/rotors, etc, but that won't really show up on the dyno. Dave (ENDSMTG) has almost all the same mods as Alan (including custom PC dyno tune) except for a slightly smaller pulley (172mm vs 178?), and 80mm vs 82mm TB. I have a tough time swallowing that stuff is good for 50rwhp.

Rodney has gone 125mph doing 460rwhp, and Alan has done 540rwhp. With an extra 80rwhp and a lot of lightweight mods he only gets 4.x mph over Rodney?

I am not going to continue to participate in these threads and have people get all personal about it. Everyone says they don't care about their numbers but if I question them it's like they think I am calling them a liar. I don't care about your personal feelings. This isn't about honesty, integrity, or any of that nonsense. Numbers and numbers. I have see cars with x,y,z numbers run x,y,z at the track. Based on that information, the numbers you present may or may not make sense. Why that is I do not know, it just is what it is.

In regards to chalking up the difference to "variables" - of course that's what it is. However if we are just going to agree that every dyno is a crapshoot and the same exact dyno in California can read 50rwhp more than two in Illinois, ALL things being RELATIVELY equal, that undermines any discussion using dynos unequivocaly.

Finally, let me very clear with you Alan. I did not mention you at all in Dave's thead. SERGE was attacking Dave's numbers as being low. SERGE uses the same Dyno you did but I only referenced it because SERGE thought that Dave's numbers were low, when in fact for our DDs out here they are NOT low. IT IS COINCIDENCE, not because I am on some mission to **** on california E55 dynos. Please read what I post carefully before you post things like I come after you everytime I talk about that dyno. I AM NOT talking about YOU.

-m

I do think the +4mm tb and +8 mm pulley can make as much as 50 more rwhp with proper tuning. At the end of the day, Alans car has a higher trap speed than any other E55 Ive ever heard of off spray. Why is it so hard to believe that hes making the power that he put down??

For point of reference: my personal car has evo I, II, and evo cooling pack, as well as AMG 80MM and eisenmann exhaust. I had a regular Powerchip flash for years, and went to the same dyno that Alan and Serge use and only put down 479 RWHP, which is inline with what the Chicago guys are getting with these mods. After Jeremys dyno tuning, on the same dyno, and after about 25 heat soaking runs, I ended up with 534 RWHP, a 60 HP gain from TUNING alone, and I picked up about 50 RWTQ. I would personally NEVER believe a claim like that, it just doesnt sound right :nix: But I got to see it done in front of my eyes on my personal car, so take that for what its worth. The Dyno tuning with Jeremy, IMO , is the most important mod you can have on your E55, especially a well modded one. :y

Couple observations...

With all the drama going on lately, I sincerely hope everyone can get back to enjoying their AMGs and set aside any differences... save that stuff for the ///M boys. :p:

On-topic, unless you're using a dyno that bolts up to the hubs (i.e. Dynapack) or one that measures driveline loss and calculates hp back to crank (i.e. Maha, AFAIK?)... lightweight wheels, rotors, etc. absolutely show up as additional rwhp/rwtq. Frankly, it would be crazy if they didn't.

Same can be said for a reservoir tank, as posted by the V12TT folks with them.

Dave's car was tuned by Jeremy, and still makes 50rwhp less than Alan, with minimal mod differences between them.

Another E55 tuned by Jeremy during his visit made 43x rwhp. He did not have shorty headers, TB, or an airbox, but the rest was the same. This would then mean that those 3 things are worth 110RWHP.

Again, both cars custom dyno tuned by Jeremy.

-m

I said not really. I don't know what wheels Alan dyno'd with, I don't think he dyno'd on his drag radials/lightweight wheel setup.

Additionally, the reduction in unsprung weight is not completely reflected at measured HP/TQ to the wheels, those simply reduce drivetrain loss... but their effect on how a car runs is two fold... you reduce drivetrain loss/drag and you lower the amount of weight the car needs to propel forward.

-m

In the interest of a intellectual discussion on the topic, your results actually seem to confirm Marcus's point. If your heat-soaked E55 dyno'd 534 rwhp with almost (if not exactly) the same mods as ENDSMTG's car, which made 490 rwhp. Almost 10% higher...

Anyway, agree with MB Forever that it's pretty irrelevant to compare different cars in different states on different dynos with different operators... a laughable number of variables start coming into play. JMHO.

So what your telling me is that I need a custom tune from PC!? Done :y

Alan, that means you have 8 up on me...I forgot about that custom PC dyno tune :P

True - the rotational weight savings is accounted for, but not in the sense of weight savings being carried down the track.

This is why I don't bother posting dyno numbers. Always 21 questions. Just get your time from the track and post that. Let everyone assume you have the run of the mill numbers for the mods you have. I'm sure most of us here already know about how much power is being made with each "stage" or group of mods... :y

Yes, I see your point. My car has the cooling pack, so although there was 25 runs back to back, my car handles it very well and stays very consistent.
but I think all of MBworld can agree ( after countless discussions on the topic ) that not all 55ks are the same. Some come strong from the factory and some dont. Some respond very well to mods and, some dont. Do I believe my car is somewhat of a factory freak? absolutely. Do I think its possible that others with similar mods can have way less power than mine? Absolutely. We have seen it here for years on Mbworld.

I would highly recommend it :bow:

Very true Sun, this is why I didn't post my numbers from my last session...:rolf:. Track results are the most proven way to determine power as long as it's a clean run. Having a bad 60's from what I've learned here on MBW well yield higher trap speeds. I broke all my PB's with one single run which tell me that I had a very clean run. I would bet if I went back to the track with my street tires and ran a 2.1 60' time in the same conditions I would have ran a higher trap speed...true or not true? Rodney needs to get back to the track and get a clean run off and from there it would be a better comparison. Would the track experts agree that there might be a difference in trap speeds if Rodney ran a 1.65 vs a 2.1 60' time? Please post because we could all learn something. Sorry Rodney for using you as a comparison but it was Marcus's choice.

Rodney, in all honesty do you think there might be a slim possibility that I have 75 rwhp over you? Please be honest. I'm not saying I'm correct but so far no one has proved me wrong yet. I'll be first to admit I'm wrong or surrender when someone proves otherwise.

Marcus, if you don't want to hear anything from me I would suggest you use someone else for you comparative reasons. If not, I'll keep on posting back at ya until proved wrong and from there I would keep my mouth shut...I promise.

You are correct Marcus, I ran with my daily street setup. My street setup a is actually lighter than my DR setup.

I was always under the impression that unsprung weight would reduce your overall drive-train loss which equal more power to the ground. My plan when building my car was to fully utilize every single hp I could from my mods, and I feel that I have accomplished that. With this said, I would have to disagree with you because I feel my lighter setup will make more power to the ground.

Hey Alan (bassn_07),
I agree with you and Marcus on the discussion, but I have some stuff to add.

I believe that the rear mounted res has A LOT to do with your high trap speeds. The fact that the car is not heat soaked by the end of the run and not pulling timing is what allows you to run ridiculous trap speeds :D, I am still blown away by the performance of the larger TB, but there is a significant amount of proof to show that it produces a very sizable gain over the 80mm and an even larger gain over stock.
In regards to your dyno, let me put it this way, I completely see where Marcus is coming from. After seeing many many cars dyno on CPT's dyno and Fluid's Dyno, I have to say, 540rwhp is a lot to swallow, but I have to tell you this, you have no reason to lie and Marcus knows that too. He is simply commenting on the fact that it is such a giant leap over anything we have seen on a 55, but then again we dont have anyone trapping 130 :D ( but we did have Marko's Cl65 dyno and OMG). Btw, you have to call me and tell me about (cough) last thursday... :y