Supercharged 63...is it ever going to happen?
Out Of Control!!
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 18,677
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From: OC
a quarter mile at a time
To give you an idea, and I believe this still holds true, BMW sells more M3's than AMG does across it's entire lineup combined for any given year. Couple that with the fact that the average BMW M owner is much more inclined to look for peformance mods than the average AMG owner and you can see why tuners don't develop things for AMG's.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,949
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From: Clifton, NJ
96 and 08 911 turbos
sticking a plain old centrifugal blower on a 63 should be easy.
Get a procharger or new vortech/paxton self contained unit, and all you'll need is a mounting bracket, intercooler core, some intake piping, bigger injectors, and a bypass valve.
Unless its a packaging constraint, any even mildly skilled fabricator could do this without a problem.
Tuning a mildly high compression V8 with a blower is no big deal either. Treat it like an NA car until boost starts to trickle in, then start to gradually kill timing advance and a/f ratio. Keep boost under 8psi for the base kit with a cooler, and you should pick up about 140rwhp.
Get a procharger or new vortech/paxton self contained unit, and all you'll need is a mounting bracket, intercooler core, some intake piping, bigger injectors, and a bypass valve.
Unless its a packaging constraint, any even mildly skilled fabricator could do this without a problem.
Tuning a mildly high compression V8 with a blower is no big deal either. Treat it like an NA car until boost starts to trickle in, then start to gradually kill timing advance and a/f ratio. Keep boost under 8psi for the base kit with a cooler, and you should pick up about 140rwhp.
Thread Starter
Super Member
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 869
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From: Pacific NW
AMG GT-R
Part of it is the journey which I find to be half the fun, and I've always liked the idea of super sedans.Even the RS4 has a supercharger kit by MTM, and the R8 has one from VF Engineering. I can't believe that their market would be much if any bigger than ours? And they have higher compression ratios than the 63 as well, as does the M3.
Now that I think about it, which engine doesn't have a some sort of F/I kit available other than the 63, at least the ones worth the investment?
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Joined: Feb 2009
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From: So Cal
2018 E63S Wagon
To give you an idea, and I believe this still holds true, BMW sells more M3's than AMG does across it's entire lineup combined for any given year. Couple that with the fact that the average BMW M owner is much more inclined to look for peformance mods than the average AMG owner and you can see why tuners don't develop things for AMG's.
Many members here seem to overestimate the number of AMG owners who are true enthusiasts looking to "mod" their cars.
If the finances/numbers actually worked, wouldn't a tuner have produced a supercharger for the 63 engine by now? Does anyone believe that these tuners DON'T want to make money? It's an economy of scale.
The vast majority of AMG vehicles never get modded, never see a quarter-mile dragstrip, and certainly never have owners who frequent this board.
I see 10 housewives driving AMG models for every "enthusiast" I see behind the wheel, and this is in So Cal. Imagine how lop-sided the numbers are in an average part of the US that isn't such a car-mecca.
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From: Irvine, CA
Car Whore
Theres enough people on this board that WOULD DO IT, to make it worthwhile for at least ONE tuner to get a good kit out.
I would've done it. rarfinancial would've done it (and tried to do it). i bet you juicee63 would probably do it. and this is just the top of my head. Imagine if we aer paying $12K per kit. Just between us 3 thats $36,000.
So tell me someone can't design this kit for $36,000 in development costs?? This isn't exactly trying to travel at light speed. Its a simple ****ing engine, put a damn Supercharger on it, account for any compression issues, and give it a good tune. The Nissan GTR market has piggybacks for the ECU's or are even replacing the ECU's entirely -- I haven't heard of any such things for Benz, just reflashes modifying some basic variables to give us a bit more power.
The 63 engine is on its way out now, so I would say the time is passed for all this and we are just screwed on getting anything. There will just be a bunch more tuners popping up once the new V8TT engines are out trying to sell their simple *** reflashed ECU tunes that increase the boost a bit, but nothing serious. Its a good game actually -- sell to the tards at 80% markup (after all, THEY ARE SELLING SOFTWARE! There is no HARD costs other than labor!) If someone were a programmer in another life, and dedicated some time to a car model he could come up with an ECU reflash and have no investment other than his own time and some cash for advertising.
I would've done it. rarfinancial would've done it (and tried to do it). i bet you juicee63 would probably do it. and this is just the top of my head. Imagine if we aer paying $12K per kit. Just between us 3 thats $36,000.
So tell me someone can't design this kit for $36,000 in development costs?? This isn't exactly trying to travel at light speed. Its a simple ****ing engine, put a damn Supercharger on it, account for any compression issues, and give it a good tune. The Nissan GTR market has piggybacks for the ECU's or are even replacing the ECU's entirely -- I haven't heard of any such things for Benz, just reflashes modifying some basic variables to give us a bit more power.
The 63 engine is on its way out now, so I would say the time is passed for all this and we are just screwed on getting anything. There will just be a bunch more tuners popping up once the new V8TT engines are out trying to sell their simple *** reflashed ECU tunes that increase the boost a bit, but nothing serious. Its a good game actually -- sell to the tards at 80% markup (after all, THEY ARE SELLING SOFTWARE! There is no HARD costs other than labor!) If someone were a programmer in another life, and dedicated some time to a car model he could come up with an ECU reflash and have no investment other than his own time and some cash for advertising.
Last edited by Fantasm; Oct 31, 2009 at 03:52 AM.
Former Vendor of MBWorld
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From: Toronto!
c63
Theres enough people on this board that WOULD DO IT, to make it worthwhile for at least ONE tuner to get a good kit out.
I would've done it. rarfinancial would've done it (and tried to do it). i bet you juicee63 would probably do it. and this is just the top of my head. Imagine if we aer paying $12K per kit. Just between us 3 thats $36,000.
So tell me someone can't design this kit for $36,000 in development costs?? This isn't exactly trying to travel at light speed. Its a simple ****ing engine, put a damn Supercharger on it, account for any compression issues, and give it a good tune. The Nissan GTR market has piggybacks for the ECU's or are even replacing the ECU's entirely -- I haven't heard of any such things for Benz, just reflashes modifying some basic variables to give us a bit more power.
The 63 engine is on its way out now, so I would say the time is passed for all this and we are just screwed on getting anything. There will just be a bunch more tuners popping up once the new V8TT engines are out trying to sell their simple *** reflashed ECU tunes that increase the boost a bit, but nothing serious. Its a good game actually -- sell to the tards at 80% markup (after all, THEY ARE SELLING SOFTWARE! There is no HARD costs other than labor!) If someone were a programmer in another life, and dedicated some time to a car model he could come up with an ECU reflash and have no investment other than his own time and some cash for advertising.
I would've done it. rarfinancial would've done it (and tried to do it). i bet you juicee63 would probably do it. and this is just the top of my head. Imagine if we aer paying $12K per kit. Just between us 3 thats $36,000.
So tell me someone can't design this kit for $36,000 in development costs?? This isn't exactly trying to travel at light speed. Its a simple ****ing engine, put a damn Supercharger on it, account for any compression issues, and give it a good tune. The Nissan GTR market has piggybacks for the ECU's or are even replacing the ECU's entirely -- I haven't heard of any such things for Benz, just reflashes modifying some basic variables to give us a bit more power.
The 63 engine is on its way out now, so I would say the time is passed for all this and we are just screwed on getting anything. There will just be a bunch more tuners popping up once the new V8TT engines are out trying to sell their simple *** reflashed ECU tunes that increase the boost a bit, but nothing serious. Its a good game actually -- sell to the tards at 80% markup (after all, THEY ARE SELLING SOFTWARE! There is no HARD costs other than labor!) If someone were a programmer in another life, and dedicated some time to a car model he could come up with an ECU reflash and have no investment other than his own time and some cash for advertising.
Although I’m in the tuning software business I agree with you and this is why we are striving to become the best and do beyond the norm. I have been in the native tuning business for some years now started out with Audi/VW and seeing some of the work that’s done I was shocked to know how little work that went into the software and the cost of a product just did not fit the bill. I have seen on some cars where 2 maps where touched I have also seen where people have paid thousands of dollars for a tune just have nothing but a stock tune on there vehicle
What a shame and what a rip off. Jerry and myself spend hours upon hours on developing software tunes and dyno testing for all sorts of vehicles and have been successful at it, its only time that Eurocharged will be 100% proven and our customers will know that they are getting nothing but quality and the best.We have also developed one of the first running turbo charged srt6 crossfire's with the original ecu with over 450rwhp.
Eurocharged would be up for the challenge of building a supercharger kit for the 63 cars is there anyone up for the challenge with us?
Winter is here anyone up for the challenge give me a call, we can have a supercharger kit ready and running by spring time.
Anyone interested in doing this please contact me directly. tony@eurocharged.com
-Tony
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Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 248
Likes: 2
E55 AMG Kompressor
I have heard the reason ppl dont make s/c kits for the 63 is becoz the e63 has around 518hp. So if u go to all the trouble to get a s/c and pay the money for it and make 700 engine hp which u would not bother getting a s/c if u are not going to make that sort of power. will the stock engine take the power i heard the stock engine is not as strong as the e55 engine. coz it was not made for forced induction. if u were to s/c the 63 engine how long will the engine really last with forced induction 700hp
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 442
Likes: 1
From: Australia
2012 MB E63 Wagon, 2012 BMW M5, 2010 Porsche 911 Turbo S, 2010 Ferrari 458
Looks like there will be a turbo 5.5 liter engine in the CLS in September next year for the Paris show. I'm guessing the same engine will go in the E-class from that time.
http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsAr...llCars/244507/
Being turbo, it won't just have more power, it should be awash with torque too.
http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsAr...llCars/244507/
Being turbo, it won't just have more power, it should be awash with torque too.
Thread Starter
Super Member
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 869
Likes: 35
From: Pacific NW
AMG GT-R
Even with the upcoming TT engines, I don't see the 63 immediately becoming obsolete. I would expect it to be around for several years while AMG continues to tweak all the N/A out of it it can. Not to mention that the M division is already on the same path (even further along) of going F/I, yet that doesn't seem to slow down current projects.
And talking about limited market, I just noticed there is a supercharger available for the Aston Martin Vantage.
It's nice to see Eurocharged is up to the challenge however! Hopefully someone in the Chicago/Midwest with a 63 is interested in taking on the challenge as well. I'll try spreading the word
And talking about limited market, I just noticed there is a supercharger available for the Aston Martin Vantage.
It's nice to see Eurocharged is up to the challenge however! Hopefully someone in the Chicago/Midwest with a 63 is interested in taking on the challenge as well. I'll try spreading the word
Thread Starter
Super Member
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 869
Likes: 35
From: Pacific NW
AMG GT-R
sticking a plain old centrifugal blower on a 63 should be easy.
Get a procharger or new vortech/paxton self contained unit, and all you'll need is a mounting bracket, intercooler core, some intake piping, bigger injectors, and a bypass valve.
Unless its a packaging constraint, any even mildly skilled fabricator could do this without a problem.
Tuning a mildly high compression V8 with a blower is no big deal either. Treat it like an NA car until boost starts to trickle in, then start to gradually kill timing advance and a/f ratio. Keep boost under 8psi for the base kit with a cooler, and you should pick up about 140rwhp.
Get a procharger or new vortech/paxton self contained unit, and all you'll need is a mounting bracket, intercooler core, some intake piping, bigger injectors, and a bypass valve.
Unless its a packaging constraint, any even mildly skilled fabricator could do this without a problem.
Tuning a mildly high compression V8 with a blower is no big deal either. Treat it like an NA car until boost starts to trickle in, then start to gradually kill timing advance and a/f ratio. Keep boost under 8psi for the base kit with a cooler, and you should pick up about 140rwhp.
Can you or someone else help me understand a little better on how this could be designed to work on the 63? Tuning aside for now, what physical parts would be required, and what would need to be fabricated? I can think of the obvious as you already posted:
- Self contained Vortech V3 blower
- air to air intercooler (perhaps do without on low boost, say 4-5 psi?)
- bypass valve
- custom fabricated s/c bracket
- intake piping
Just comparing the ESS vortech kit for the M3, they aren't using any intercooler for the base kit, and no mention of larger injectors? It does look like however, all kits do come with a custom intake manifold.
Also, here is where my ignorance will really show through, but how would the plumbing be routed to and from the supercharger? With or without intercooler?
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: May 2008
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From: Maryland
SL55 AMG
this is an interesting thread...I'm subscribed ...I think with enough money anything is possible; although not sure as to the risks and real world feasibilty of this undertaking....amg is a pretty good outfit, they made the 63 with intent of a NA peak performing motor in mind, leaving some soom for tune & tweak but certainly not with the idea of adding a blower to it...
...I think with enough money anything is possible; although not sure as to the risks and real world feasibilty of this undertaking....amg is a pretty good outfit, they made the 63 with intent of a NA peak performing motor in mind, leaving some soom for tune & tweak but certainly not with the idea of adding a blower to it...
Thread Starter
Super Member
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 869
Likes: 35
From: Pacific NW
AMG GT-R
this is an interesting thread...I'm subscribed ...I think with enough money anything is possible; although not sure as to the risks and real world feasibilty of this undertaking....amg is a pretty good outfit, they made the 63 with intent of a NA peak performing motor in mind, leaving some soom for tune & tweak but certainly not with the idea of adding a blower to it...
...I think with enough money anything is possible; although not sure as to the risks and real world feasibilty of this undertaking....amg is a pretty good outfit, they made the 63 with intent of a NA peak performing motor in mind, leaving some soom for tune & tweak but certainly not with the idea of adding a blower to it... Like I said before, the M3 with a 12:1 compression ratio, is running 5 psi with NO cooling, and is making 535 hp at the crank. This base kit starts at $8495, not bad for over 100 hp imo.
Out Of Control!!
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 13,394
Likes: 6
From: San Diego
2015 S212
My take is that we simply don't have enough tuning to pair up with it. Adding a few psi can't be that hard. Even if you don't get the max output, it should show gains. I would go with the turbos before I would try the vortec style SCs.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,949
Likes: 39
From: Clifton, NJ
96 and 08 911 turbos
It looks like the setup you describe is pretty much how all the M3 kits are designed.
Can you or someone else help me understand a little better on how this could be designed to work on the 63? Tuning aside for now, what physical parts would be required, and what would need to be fabricated? I can think of the obvious as you already posted:
- Self contained Vortech V3 blower
- air to air intercooler (perhaps do without on low boost, say 4-5 psi?)
- bypass valve
- custom fabricated s/c bracket
- intake piping
Just comparing the ESS vortech kit for the M3, they aren't using any intercooler for the base kit, and no mention of larger injectors? It does look like however, all kits do come with a custom intake manifold.
Also, here is where my ignorance will really show through, but how would the plumbing be routed to and from the supercharger? With or without intercooler?
Can you or someone else help me understand a little better on how this could be designed to work on the 63? Tuning aside for now, what physical parts would be required, and what would need to be fabricated? I can think of the obvious as you already posted:
- Self contained Vortech V3 blower
- air to air intercooler (perhaps do without on low boost, say 4-5 psi?)
- bypass valve
- custom fabricated s/c bracket
- intake piping
Just comparing the ESS vortech kit for the M3, they aren't using any intercooler for the base kit, and no mention of larger injectors? It does look like however, all kits do come with a custom intake manifold.
Also, here is where my ignorance will really show through, but how would the plumbing be routed to and from the supercharger? With or without intercooler?
It would be pretty simple on the E63 actually since it has the single throttle body all the way in the back.
Basically the blower would mount to the front timing cover. Its a little bit tough space wise from what I can see, but if you mount the blower a bit lower, it should fit. You add an extra idler pulley to get some decent belt wrap, and then add a longer belt.
With 4-6 psi, I agree that you don't need a cooler, especially with the more efficient centrifugal blower.
So, you'd ditch the amg airboxes. You have an airfilter mounted down by the lower grilles, then you run an intake tube to the blower, then it comes out the blower discharge, and you run one pipe (containing the MAF and the bypass) to the throttle body.
Really the only issues I can see here are getting the blower to fit and getting the filter in a decent spot. Running a single tube to the TB is a piece of cake.
Tuning wise I'd need to look at injector duty cycle to see how close they are in stock form. I don't like anything over 85% duty cycle, so I would probably go with a bigger injector. You could run a set of Siemens Deka 60lb injectors, which are fairly cheap at about $350.
Also, you'd basically have to trick the computer into thinking that its still reading from two MAFs, but again, that should not be difficult.
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From: Hollywood CA
2011 twin turboed prius
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From: California, USA
E63 P30, CL500 Sport
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Joined: Feb 2008
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From: el clinico magnifico
E63, S550
I thought the limiting factor with the E63 is the transmission which cannot handle much more torque
Obviously with a high compression engine you cannot put too much boost without upgrading the bottom end, but modest boost (4-6 psi) should be fine if the transmission can handle it.
Obviously with a high compression engine you cannot put too much boost without upgrading the bottom end, but modest boost (4-6 psi) should be fine if the transmission can handle it.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,137
Likes: 4
From: California, USA
E63 P30, CL500 Sport
I thought the limiting factor with the E63 is the transmission which cannot handle much more torque
Obviously with a high compression engine you cannot put too much boost without upgrading the bottom end, but modest boost (4-6 psi) should be fine if the transmission can handle it.
Obviously with a high compression engine you cannot put too much boost without upgrading the bottom end, but modest boost (4-6 psi) should be fine if the transmission can handle it.
. The best way to find out is to have a tuner give the supercharger project a try...
Out Of Control!!
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 13,394
Likes: 6
From: San Diego
2015 S212
Sorry about the numbers mixup. It has been a long few weeks. It is true that the TBs can be accessed easily enough and there is room on top of the NA motor. Also, I agree that the tranny can either handle it or be upgraded, as shown by Rick, Jcrat, and the slew of C63s with added power. If NOS isn't snapping the trannies, 4 psi surely won't.
I'd accept the standard added excess in all around wear and tear but I have always believed it is very doable. The key for me (again) is the tuning to mate it up. Who would you trust and what would it cost?
I'd accept the standard added excess in all around wear and tear but I have always believed it is very doable. The key for me (again) is the tuning to mate it up. Who would you trust and what would it cost?
Super Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 695
Likes: 0
From: Delran, NJ
05 C55
Sure.
It would be pretty simple on the E63 actually since it has the single throttle body all the way in the back.
Basically the blower would mount to the front timing cover. Its a little bit tough space wise from what I can see, but if you mount the blower a bit lower, it should fit. You add an extra idler pulley to get some decent belt wrap, and then add a longer belt.
With 4-6 psi, I agree that you don't need a cooler, especially with the more efficient centrifugal blower.
So, you'd ditch the amg airboxes. You have an airfilter mounted down by the lower grilles, then you run an intake tube to the blower, then it comes out the blower discharge, and you run one pipe (containing the MAF and the bypass) to the throttle body.
Really the only issues I can see here are getting the blower to fit and getting the filter in a decent spot. Running a single tube to the TB is a piece of cake.
Tuning wise I'd need to look at injector duty cycle to see how close they are in stock form. I don't like anything over 85% duty cycle, so I would probably go with a bigger injector. You could run a set of Siemens Deka 60lb injectors, which are fairly cheap at about $350.
Also, you'd basically have to trick the computer into thinking that its still reading from two MAFs, but again, that should not be difficult.
It would be pretty simple on the E63 actually since it has the single throttle body all the way in the back.
Basically the blower would mount to the front timing cover. Its a little bit tough space wise from what I can see, but if you mount the blower a bit lower, it should fit. You add an extra idler pulley to get some decent belt wrap, and then add a longer belt.
With 4-6 psi, I agree that you don't need a cooler, especially with the more efficient centrifugal blower.
So, you'd ditch the amg airboxes. You have an airfilter mounted down by the lower grilles, then you run an intake tube to the blower, then it comes out the blower discharge, and you run one pipe (containing the MAF and the bypass) to the throttle body.
Really the only issues I can see here are getting the blower to fit and getting the filter in a decent spot. Running a single tube to the TB is a piece of cake.
Tuning wise I'd need to look at injector duty cycle to see how close they are in stock form. I don't like anything over 85% duty cycle, so I would probably go with a bigger injector. You could run a set of Siemens Deka 60lb injectors, which are fairly cheap at about $350.
Also, you'd basically have to trick the computer into thinking that its still reading from two MAFs, but again, that should not be difficult.
