A Question For The Techies....
Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,137
Likes: 4
From: California, USA
E63 P30, CL500 Sport
A Question For The Techies....
1) What would cause the cam lobes to "wear-out"? This is for a 2007 E63 with 60,000 miles with average daily driving miles (a friend's car).
2) How much (approximately) would it cost to replace and fix?
Thanks in advance...
2) How much (approximately) would it cost to replace and fix?
Thanks in advance...
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,642
Likes: 13
From: Caribbean/Florida/Colorado
E-ZGO 53hp., 1999 E 430 sport, 2004 E 55, 2008 Tahoe LTZ on 24"s
Spalling.
To repair requires a complete engine rebuild.
Drain oil, drop the oil pan and take a look at it in the sun.
The metal flake you see, is the cam and lifters.
To repair requires a complete engine rebuild.
Drain oil, drop the oil pan and take a look at it in the sun.
The metal flake you see, is the cam and lifters.
Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,137
Likes: 4
From: California, USA
E63 P30, CL500 Sport
The dealer claims that only the lobes on the driver side are badly worn and will need replacement. My friend took it in because of a ticking sound that kept getting louder and louder. Here is the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jWdT...=youtube_gdata
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jWdT...=youtube_gdata
Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,137
Likes: 4
From: California, USA
E63 P30, CL500 Sport
How can they wear out that fast? My friend has done regular maintenance on the car and does not race it, as it is his daily driver?
Could an aggressive tune has caused the problem? The car is tuned, but I will not say the name of the tuner yet....
Could an aggressive tune has caused the problem? The car is tuned, but I will not say the name of the tuner yet....
Trending Topics
MB World Stories
The Best of Mercedes & AMG
Manual Mercedes? 6 Times Sindelfingen Let Drivers Have All The Fun
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes SLR McLaren 722 S Is Extremely Rare Example Modified by McLaren
Verdad Gallardo
8 Classic Boxy Mercedes Designs That Have Aged Like Fine Wine
Verdad Gallardo
Flawlessly Restored Mercedes 190E Evo II Heads to Auction
Verdad Gallardo
Electric Mercedes C-Class Unveiled: 11 Things You Need to Know
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes EQS Gets A Major Update: Everything You Need to Know
Verdad Gallardo
5 Underrated Mercedes-Benz Models That Don't Get the Love They Deserve
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes 300D Has Pushed Well Past 1 Million Miles and It Ain't Stopping
Verdad Gallardo
10 Most Reliable Mercedes-Benz Models You Can Buy Used
Verdad Gallardo
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,124
Likes: 32
From: Florida-Germany-New York
2004 E55,1969 300SEL6.3,2011 ML350 BlueTec Diesel,2005 ML400 CDI
Routine oil analysis may very well have alerted you to the problem long before it became destructive. Analysis will ALWAYS alert you to the presence of dirt getting into the system. Additionally, repeated analysis will establish a base line as to what's normal for a particular engine
Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,137
Likes: 4
From: California, USA
E63 P30, CL500 Sport
Routine oil analysis may very well have alerted you to the problem long before it became destructive. Analysis will ALWAYS alert you to the presence of dirt getting into the system. Additionally, repeated analysis will establish a base line as to what's normal for a particular engine
Assuming lack of lubrication is the problem, why would it damage only one side but not the other?
Former Vendor of MBWorld
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 2,305
Likes: 93
From: Valley of the Sun, Arizona
C63, SL55, E55, CLS55, ML63, C55
The tempering of the metal on that cam shaft might not have been good. If we are ruling out oiling issues. It simply could have been less then perfect camshaft. The tune would not do that, so I would rule that out. If I was your friend I would contact the dealer. There is just no reason a cam should be junk so soon.
Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,137
Likes: 4
From: California, USA
E63 P30, CL500 Sport
The tempering of the metal on that cam shaft might not have been good. If we are ruling out oiling issues. It simply could have been less then perfect camshaft. The tune would not do that, so I would rule that out. If I was your friend I would contact the dealer. There is just no reason a cam should be junk so soon.
Hmmm... so you don't think an overly-aggressive tune coupled with CA pump gas 91 would do that? I think the car had knocking problems in the past, which happened to start (or at least became noticeable) soon after the tune.
I will update everyone once he hears back from the dealer.
Thanks for your help
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,388
Likes: 18
'06 E55 K2
Could it be the ****ty oil that is only available now without very Zinc content. Alot of valve train failure from this, hence the reason folks switching to Brad Penn oil. I always run a bottle of Red Line break in lube to bring the Zn levels back up to 1000ppm as a result.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,693
Likes: 9
From: Houston, TX
2006 E55, 2012 Jeep SRT, 2008 G37s 6MT (The Mrs.), 2005 Explorer
If the cam wasn't within MB's hardness or porosity spec it could wear prematurely. I hope the issue is specific to the cam. Because if it wore due to lack of lubrication it's likely there is an issue somewhere else in the engine as well.
Former Vendor of MBWorld
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 2,305
Likes: 93
From: Valley of the Sun, Arizona
C63, SL55, E55, CLS55, ML63, C55
He already contacted the dealer and is awaiting final diagnosis and official price of how much it will cost to fix.
Hmmm... so you don't think an overly-aggressive tune coupled with CA pump gas 91 would do that? I think the car had knocking problems in the past, which happened to start (or at least became noticeable) soon after the tune.
I will update everyone once he hears back from the dealer.
Thanks for your help
Hmmm... so you don't think an overly-aggressive tune coupled with CA pump gas 91 would do that? I think the car had knocking problems in the past, which happened to start (or at least became noticeable) soon after the tune.
I will update everyone once he hears back from the dealer.
Thanks for your help
I would also think MBZ would order some test on the oil and cam hardness. Its problems like this that become really hard to say what exactly was the issue that caused the failure.
I would bet, If an oil test was done. It would come back with a missing or low property in some needed area. Maybe thats just me not wanting to believe Mercedes would have an issue with the hardness of the cam metal.
In any event I hope this problem gets worked out . It will be interesting to see that Mercedes says and does.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,224
Likes: 6
From: S.E. FLA.
05 ML-500 , 03 CLK5.5 AMG has left the Garage
Cam Issue ?
My Guess there is an cam shaft And Cylinder head Issue. All the noisy valve train issues I've seen. were on the left Cylinder head only. For some period of time you could not get a Left bank cylinder , When I looked at the Buckets , they had a very funny wear pattern , Like they were not spinning , or were ground wrong, Or the cam was not off set enough. There was several changes made to this engine, to deal with the gear noise and timing chain idler gear teeth , that would just wear out over a short period of time. Good luck !! Look deep. Except nothing less than a full Long Block assy. This type of Failure is not a cause of a ECU Tune. Believe it or not Andy @ MHP saw this early on. Regards _PTEngineering
Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,137
Likes: 4
From: California, USA
E63 P30, CL500 Sport
My Guess there is an cam shaft And Cylinder head Issue. All the noisy valve train issues I've seen. were on the left Cylinder head only. For some period of time you could not get a Left bank cylinder , When I looked at the Buckets , they had a very funny wear pattern , Like they were not spinning , or were ground wrong, Or the cam was not off set enough. There was several changes made to this engine, to deal with the gear noise and timing chain idler gear teeth , that would just wear out over a short period of time. Good luck !! Look deep. Except nothing less than a full Long Block assy. This type of Failure is not a cause of a ECU Tune. Believe it or not Andy @ MHP saw this early on. Regards _PTEngineering
Originally Posted by MHP
There are a few issues with OEM M156 H/Cs that we can and are addressing with our top ends.
The stock cams are chilled cast iron (soft) the buckets are hardened 9310 steel (diff gear steel, hard), so the cams will always wear more quickly than the buckets. Our cams are also 9310 steel, hardened, and rifle drilled.
The buckets on a M156 are also rather flat, on other (pretty much any other really) OHC motors they are more convex. Combined with cam lobe center spacing slighly offset to one side, this causes the lifter to spin which eliminates most component wear. With these flat buckets, from what we've seen and what the TSBs say, some buckets aren't spinning. Without seeing the car first hand I would put my $ on this as your issue.
One more (the largest) problem remains and likely contributes to both the buckets not spinning, and worn/scored cam lobes. The clue here is $300 Chinese scooter.
Thanks
The stock cams are chilled cast iron (soft) the buckets are hardened 9310 steel (diff gear steel, hard), so the cams will always wear more quickly than the buckets. Our cams are also 9310 steel, hardened, and rifle drilled.
The buckets on a M156 are also rather flat, on other (pretty much any other really) OHC motors they are more convex. Combined with cam lobe center spacing slighly offset to one side, this causes the lifter to spin which eliminates most component wear. With these flat buckets, from what we've seen and what the TSBs say, some buckets aren't spinning. Without seeing the car first hand I would put my $ on this as your issue.
One more (the largest) problem remains and likely contributes to both the buckets not spinning, and worn/scored cam lobes. The clue here is $300 Chinese scooter.
Thanks
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,224
Likes: 6
From: S.E. FLA.
05 ML-500 , 03 CLK5.5 AMG has left the Garage
Techy stuff
We had talked about some time ago. I have not been to the AMG power sight in a month or so. . I'll check it out. Yacht Master ( Robert), Thats a damn ugly picture , where did you get it // Thanks _PTEngineering
Last edited by PTE; Apr 19, 2010 at 02:55 PM.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,642
Likes: 13
From: Caribbean/Florida/Colorado
E-ZGO 53hp., 1999 E 430 sport, 2004 E 55, 2008 Tahoe LTZ on 24"s
I have never been a fan of buckets, and I'll leave it at that.
Out Of Control!!
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 13,394
Likes: 6
From: San Diego
2015 S212
I agree with most posters that it is a contaminant in the oil or lack of lubrication. Both can be tested and verified.
An agressive tune, knocking, etc. can cause even explosions in the chamber but that won't pit your cams.
Another point to be made now that it seems many are buying into Andy's banter again. The cams in the motors are made of a softer metal for a reason. Swapping out the softer (lighter) cams for stronger (heavier) cams will make the head your next weak link. Also, now the cams will be more brittle, so tunes start to matter more.
I dunno why everyone here is acting like pitted cams on a german car is such a big deal, but when I grew up 50k miles was about right for a motor that had been riden hard.
An agressive tune, knocking, etc. can cause even explosions in the chamber but that won't pit your cams.
Another point to be made now that it seems many are buying into Andy's banter again. The cams in the motors are made of a softer metal for a reason. Swapping out the softer (lighter) cams for stronger (heavier) cams will make the head your next weak link. Also, now the cams will be more brittle, so tunes start to matter more.
I dunno why everyone here is acting like pitted cams on a german car is such a big deal, but when I grew up 50k miles was about right for a motor that had been riden hard.
