W211 E55 vs W212 E63.... tonight
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 350
Likes: 0
From: Brooklyn
///M5 Beast
Def want to see a re-match when the car is broken in, it def helps get some power out of the motor. Most every car, NA or FI, gains power within the first 5K-10K over the first 2-3K.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,167
Likes: 1
From: ny
2019 s560 sedan
charcoal filter removals will lessen TQ on bottom end but u should be picking up more power in upper RPM range .
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 380
Likes: 0
From: Long Island
E63 AMG 2010, Black, Pano, P2
I understand that removing them may create better airflow, so why loss of low end TQ and yet gain in upper range?
Also wouldn't the ECU adjust the air mixture and any benefit gained with charcoal delete is negated by the ECU anyway?
DOES ANYONE REALLY KNOW OR IS EVERYONE SPECULATING? Any mechanics on the board or people who understand how this crap works?
Last edited by AlbertM; Apr 23, 2010 at 07:26 AM.
Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,762
Likes: 1
From: Queens, NY
04 w211 E55
I know man but I hate when I read about stories and then participants in a run both have a different say about what happened. I really wanted to get this on camera.
I know what you mean but I think every1 expected the 212 to better then it did. Hopefully it breaks in and maybe will open more but I don't see it making up all that ground I have over it.
MB World Stories
The Best of Mercedes & AMG
6 Mercedes Models That Did NOT Age Well (But Are Somehow Still Cool)
Verdad Gallardo
Manual Mercedes? 6 Times Sindelfingen Let Drivers Have All The Fun
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes SLR McLaren 722 S Is Extremely Rare Example Modified by McLaren
Verdad Gallardo
8 Classic Boxy Mercedes Designs That Have Aged Like Fine Wine
Verdad Gallardo
Flawlessly Restored Mercedes 190E Evo II Heads to Auction
Verdad Gallardo
Electric Mercedes C-Class Unveiled: 11 Things You Need to Know
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes EQS Gets A Major Update: Everything You Need to Know
Verdad Gallardo
5 Underrated Mercedes-Benz Models That Don't Get the Love They Deserve
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes 300D Has Pushed Well Past 1 Million Miles and It Ain't Stopping
Verdad Gallardo
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 350
Likes: 0
From: Brooklyn
///M5 Beast
Why? I don't understand how charcoal filters impact torque/HP? Can you explain?
I understand that removing them may create better airflow, so why loss of low end TQ and yet gain in upper range?
Also wouldn't the ECU adjust the air mixture and any benefit gained with charcoal delete is negated by the ECU anyway?
DOES ANYONE REALLY KNOW OR IS EVERYONE SPECULATING? Any mechanics on the board or people who understand how this crap works?
I understand that removing them may create better airflow, so why loss of low end TQ and yet gain in upper range?
Also wouldn't the ECU adjust the air mixture and any benefit gained with charcoal delete is negated by the ECU anyway?
DOES ANYONE REALLY KNOW OR IS EVERYONE SPECULATING? Any mechanics on the board or people who understand how this crap works?
The purpose of the C. filter is to help prevent type of emissions from the intake from what i did read once, and i think in euro models this might not even be included, as E60 M5's were.
After these runs I think its going to take more then a break in for it to beat my car. Its possible it might hold up a little better. It runs side by side with a stock c63 so don't see how much more faster its going to get. I'm actually hoping it does do better because I expected a little more from it.
Last edited by Brisk335; Apr 23, 2010 at 09:28 AM.
Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,762
Likes: 1
From: Queens, NY
04 w211 E55
Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,762
Likes: 1
From: Queens, NY
04 w211 E55
Heyyy JON. My buddy oldgixer would like to run you with his w211 E63. The same 1 I raced in my video. Let me know if you wanna do it. He's stock and he don't think there is anyway you are going to beat him with the c63.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,347
Likes: 1
From: Dallas, TX
2007 E63, 2005 Dodge Ram Hemi
My dealer said they could care less if you have them in or not, so I just leave them out. Certainly can't hurt power...
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 380
Likes: 0
From: Long Island
E63 AMG 2010, Black, Pano, P2
I did some analysis, my runs with C63 shows neck to neck, given the 300-400lbs difference, W212 must put down more power to the wheels to stay even. So if an avg C63 puts down around 380-390 to the wheels, than the e63 has to put down around 410-420 to compensate for the weight difference.
The 63 also lost around 1.5 to 2 car lengths to the E55 (which as the owner claims dynos at around 411), but it is also 250lbs lighter than my E63.
So to stay even with E55 the E63 would have to put down around 430-440 to the wheels to compensate for the weight difference.
All in all, the results can be explained if the E63 produces around 410-420 to the wheels.
Now, that is around 100hp loss which more like ~20% drive-train loss compared to a typical 15-18% loss.
Thoughts? Am I off with this analysis?
The 63 also lost around 1.5 to 2 car lengths to the E55 (which as the owner claims dynos at around 411), but it is also 250lbs lighter than my E63.
So to stay even with E55 the E63 would have to put down around 430-440 to the wheels to compensate for the weight difference.
All in all, the results can be explained if the E63 produces around 410-420 to the wheels.
Now, that is around 100hp loss which more like ~20% drive-train loss compared to a typical 15-18% loss.
Thoughts? Am I off with this analysis?
Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,762
Likes: 1
From: Queens, NY
04 w211 E55
I did some analysis, my runs with C63 shows neck to neck, given the 300-400lbs difference, W212 must put down more power to the wheels to stay even. So if an avg C63 puts down around 380-390 to the wheels, than the e63 has to put down around 410-420 to compensate for the weight difference.
The 63 also lost around 1.5 to 2 car lengths to the E55 (which as the owner claims dynos at around 411), but it is also 250lbs lighter than my E63.
So to stay even with E55 the E63 would have to put down around 430-440 to the wheels to compensate for the weight difference.
All in all, the results can be explained if the E63 produces around 410-420 to the wheels.
Now, that is around 100hp loss which more like ~20% drive-train loss compared to a typical 15-18% loss.
Thoughts? Am I off with this analysis?
The 63 also lost around 1.5 to 2 car lengths to the E55 (which as the owner claims dynos at around 411), but it is also 250lbs lighter than my E63.
So to stay even with E55 the E63 would have to put down around 430-440 to the wheels to compensate for the weight difference.
All in all, the results can be explained if the E63 produces around 410-420 to the wheels.
Now, that is around 100hp loss which more like ~20% drive-train loss compared to a typical 15-18% loss.
Thoughts? Am I off with this analysis?
What I'm interested about is this whole gearing issue. I've heard numerous times that a 7 speed does better up top. From my experience I have run multiple times with "up top" cars (c63/e63/21263/M5) and I do not believe that any of these cars do better up top then a 5 speed 55.
To me its a fact the 7 speeds are not any better then the 5 speed. I have proved it time and time again.
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 380
Likes: 0
From: Long Island
E63 AMG 2010, Black, Pano, P2
Definetly makes sense. Your def putting down more power then a c63 because you guys are even.
What I'm interested about is this whole gearing issue. I've heard numerous times that a 7 speed does better up top. From my experience I have run multiple times with "up top" cars (c63/e63/21263/M5) and I do not believe that any of these cars do better up top then a 5 speed 55.
To me its a fact the 7 speeds are not any better then the 5 speed. I have proved it time and time again.
What I'm interested about is this whole gearing issue. I've heard numerous times that a 7 speed does better up top. From my experience I have run multiple times with "up top" cars (c63/e63/21263/M5) and I do not believe that any of these cars do better up top then a 5 speed 55.
To me its a fact the 7 speeds are not any better then the 5 speed. I have proved it time and time again.
But for sure if we put down the same power and your E55 weighs 250lbs less than the outcome is expected.
Although M5 should be able to beat E55 up top, so I dont know how this works. Unless of course your E55 is not stock (hehe) or somehow puts down more power than stock.
Last edited by AlbertM; Apr 23, 2010 at 11:39 AM.
Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,762
Likes: 1
From: Queens, NY
04 w211 E55
Very interesting indeed. There are so many variables, gearing, tranny, weight, ECU, etc
But for sure if we put down the same power and your E55 weighs 250lbs less than the outcome is expected.
Although M5 should be able to beat E55 up top, so I dont know how this works. Unless of course your E55 is not stock (hehe) or somehow puts down more power than stock.
But for sure if we put down the same power and your E55 weighs 250lbs less than the outcome is expected.
Although M5 should be able to beat E55 up top, so I dont know how this works. Unless of course your E55 is not stock (hehe) or somehow puts down more power than stock.
. He's a member here loco.
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 450
Likes: 0
From: el clinico magnifico
E63, S550
Nice runs.
I would've thought the MCT transmission would have less drivetrain loss, not more. But definitely, the 6.2 needs more miles to get the full hp. Don't the AMG engineers wonder what's wrong when they dyno a new 6.2 and see less than the advertised horsepower?
I would've thought the MCT transmission would have less drivetrain loss, not more. But definitely, the 6.2 needs more miles to get the full hp. Don't the AMG engineers wonder what's wrong when they dyno a new 6.2 and see less than the advertised horsepower?
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,137
Likes: 4
From: California, USA
E63 P30, CL500 Sport
Slightly off topic: secondary cats are worth about 10 whp on E55 on dynojet. Don't know how much the mufflers are worth? Were they higher quality and more flowing than the AMG ones?
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 4,455
Likes: 31
From: Ny
Anything W/4Wheels
Dude u need to bring you car to Bruce to Dyno u car. Last tme u dynoed and got 411 it was a spike and you car downshifted from4th gear to 3rd. That's not a accurate Dyno u got.
Plus you should Dyno you car now after 2nd cat delete and mufflers I'm sure u gained 10-15 not 3-5. Plus you k&n's. Comon you not stock no more Time to start modding you cAr.
Is this beter em I gettn in u head now. Lmao
Plus you should Dyno you car now after 2nd cat delete and mufflers I'm sure u gained 10-15 not 3-5. Plus you k&n's. Comon you not stock no more Time to start modding you cAr.
Is this beter em I gettn in u head now. Lmao
Last edited by mthis; Apr 23, 2010 at 12:56 PM.
Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,762
Likes: 1
From: Queens, NY
04 w211 E55
From the video you posted of your runs with him, it looked like whenever oldgixer got the jump, he took the lead and stayed ahead throughout the run. The opposite was also true: whenever you got the jump, you took the lead and stayed ahead the entire way. This shows that the cars are even and that such race will ultimately be determined by the driver. Moreover, if the W212 E63 was equally powered, we would've seen a similar scenario, but instead, we saw the W212 E63 lose whether it got the jump or not. In my opinion, the W212 E63 was holding back some power and will eventually unleash a few more ponies after it has been fully broken in as was the case with early W211 E63s.
Slightly off topic: secondary cats are worth about 10 whp on E55 on dynojet. Don't know how much the mufflers are worth? Were they higher quality and more flowing than the AMG ones?
Slightly off topic: secondary cats are worth about 10 whp on E55 on dynojet. Don't know how much the mufflers are worth? Were they higher quality and more flowing than the AMG ones?
The mufflers have not proven to add any hp to the car. The cats I don't kno how much they add but 10whp seems aot to me. That would make me 421whp on a dynojet if that was true. Anyone have any before and after with just 2nd cats deleted.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,137
Likes: 4
From: California, USA
E63 P30, CL500 Sport
When we set up a rematch with the 212 I definetly wanna give it another go with w211 e63. The race where jumped out came quick and I wasn't in power band plus it was the shortest of the 3 runs. But they definetly are very close regardless. I feel that my car does have a slight advantage if we get the cars all the way up to 150 but those are krazy speeds neway. Bottom line w211 as of now is quicker then c63 and 212 63. Can't wait for the 212 to add some mileage.
The mufflers have not proven to add any hp to the car. The cats I don't kno how much they add but 10whp seems aot to me. That would make me 421whp on a dynojet if that was true. Anyone have any before and after with just 2nd cats deleted.
The mufflers have not proven to add any hp to the car. The cats I don't kno how much they add but 10whp seems aot to me. That would make me 421whp on a dynojet if that was true. Anyone have any before and after with just 2nd cats deleted.
Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,762
Likes: 1
From: Queens, NY
04 w211 E55
Dude u need to bring you car to Bruce to Dyno u car. Last tme u dynoed and got 411 it was a spike and you car downshifted from4th gear to 3rd. That's not a accurate Dyno u got.
Plus you should Dyno you car now after 2nd cat delete and mufflers I'm sure u gained 10-15 not 3-5. Plus you k&n's. Comon you not stock no more Time to start modding you cAr.
Is this beter em I gettn in u head now. Lmao
Plus you should Dyno you car now after 2nd cat delete and mufflers I'm sure u gained 10-15 not 3-5. Plus you k&n's. Comon you not stock no more Time to start modding you cAr.
Is this beter em I gettn in u head now. Lmao
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 380
Likes: 0
From: Long Island
E63 AMG 2010, Black, Pano, P2
When we set up a rematch with the 212 I definetly wanna give it another go with w211 e63. The race where jumped out came quick and I wasn't in power band plus it was the shortest of the 3 runs. But they definetly are very close regardless. I feel that my car does have a slight advantage if we get the cars all the way up to 150 but those are krazy speeds neway. Bottom line w211 as of now is quicker then c63 and 212 63. Can't wait for the 212 to add some mileage.
The mufflers have not proven to add any hp to the car. The cats I don't kno how much they add but 10whp seems aot to me. That would make me 421whp on a dynojet if that was true. Anyone have any before and after with just 2nd cats deleted.
The mufflers have not proven to add any hp to the car. The cats I don't kno how much they add but 10whp seems aot to me. That would make me 421whp on a dynojet if that was true. Anyone have any before and after with just 2nd cats deleted.
Don't know. Just seems like too many variations and conditions. Cars are so close that any change in either temp, weight or whatever can produce a win or a loss for either.
Keep in mind that 1.5 to 2 cars at 150mph is most likely less than 0.1 sec in time difference and maybe 2-3mph in speed.
Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,762
Likes: 1
From: Queens, NY
04 w211 E55
To Mthis;
Not to mention I only lose 1.5 to ur tune/header 63. So if u claim I have 10-15hp more plus if I use 100 octane ill prob be kissing your bumper
. Uh oh give it to me loll
How about this guys. I go out running every1 and no matter what I do I her ***** and excuses all the time. So this is what I say. We have me, jon - ( c63 ), oldgixer - ( w211 e63 ), albert - ( 212 63 ) all get together on a sat/sun am we all get every single car on the same dyno and go out for some friendly runs after that.
So there it is. I'm IN.....
Not to mention I only lose 1.5 to ur tune/header 63. So if u claim I have 10-15hp more plus if I use 100 octane ill prob be kissing your bumper
. Uh oh give it to me lollHow about this guys. I go out running every1 and no matter what I do I her ***** and excuses all the time. So this is what I say. We have me, jon - ( c63 ), oldgixer - ( w211 e63 ), albert - ( 212 63 ) all get together on a sat/sun am we all get every single car on the same dyno and go out for some friendly runs after that.
So there it is. I'm IN.....
