View Poll Results: VRP HEM or Renntech Shorty?
Voters: 25. You may not vote on this poll
VRP Hem Headers or Renntech Tubular Shortys
Out Of Control!!
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 13,394
Likes: 6
From: San Diego
2015 S212
I agree fully. For a shorty, the log maximizes total volume flow (HP) and not low end (TQ). The difference in price (big) and gains (minor) between the brands makes it an apples and oranges sititation....
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 3,077
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2006 E55 AMG
I do find it funny that people make fun of these headers with proven results on the track at a very reasonable price....
. Just to note, I have several Renntech items on my car and I don't have a single complaint about quality or performance. All though I will admit they did come at a much higher price tag over similar products now offered here on MBW.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,137
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From: California, USA
E63 P30, CL500 Sport
In terms of power, I agree with Jangy: the VRP exhaust manifolds probably maximizes gains although I think the performance between the headers will be very close. To me, the RennTech ones look like they're just so much better designed (not just the one pictured but the original 55k one). However, I think the purchasing decision has to factor some type of product support as well. Otherwise, what good is it buying a header that may possibly crack or may already have a manufacturing defect or whatever problem that may arise if the product is discontinued and the company may not support it.
The price argument (to me) is very relative and depends on personal choice. For instance, one could look at Brabus's current prices and think they are way too expensive and that RennTech prices are dirt cheap in comparison while others can look at a Powerchip tune and think that they are way too expensive when compared to Eurocharged/LET tunes, etc.... I think having a solid-standing relationship with the actual company and how comfortable you feel with their service and support plays a major role in the purchasing decision. Oh and although brand name price tag factors into the equation, product quality and integrity also play a big role between the different companies out there.
The price argument (to me) is very relative and depends on personal choice. For instance, one could look at Brabus's current prices and think they are way too expensive and that RennTech prices are dirt cheap in comparison while others can look at a Powerchip tune and think that they are way too expensive when compared to Eurocharged/LET tunes, etc.... I think having a solid-standing relationship with the actual company and how comfortable you feel with their service and support plays a major role in the purchasing decision. Oh and although brand name price tag factors into the equation, product quality and integrity also play a big role between the different companies out there.
Out Of Control!!
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 13,394
Likes: 6
From: San Diego
2015 S212
Dropping bottom end TQ to gain traps is the name of the game. The 55k is just a TQ MONSTER. If you look at the HP / TQ graph of a stock vs nicely modded (for 1/4 mile style) E55 one additional thing to look for is a flattening of the lines.
I agree with what many are saying and we should keep in mind that the only reason that we are even comparing the two and talking prices is because of OP's initial poll. I assumed he meant he was considering doing it so I gave the edge to VRP because I am familiar with this particular product. As for service, etc. I assumed OP knew the deal...
I agree with what many are saying and we should keep in mind that the only reason that we are even comparing the two and talking prices is because of OP's initial poll. I assumed he meant he was considering doing it so I gave the edge to VRP because I am familiar with this particular product. As for service, etc. I assumed OP knew the deal...
Out Of Control!!
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 13,394
Likes: 6
From: San Diego
2015 S212
40hp gains with a shorty? NOT A CHANCE, regardless of the brand. Those gains would be more in-line with LTs PLUS a custom tune. Taboo or not, it sound slimey to me. First, the word gets spread that they are RT knock offs or even the same, LOL!! Dont forget, the shape of headers on the outside has nothing to do with the craftsmanship and welding on the inside. Then, this rediculous claim of 40hp gains in a controlled study. This forum is way too refined for that.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,697
Likes: 381
2005 E55
40hp gains with a shorty? NOT A CHANCE, regardless of the brand. Those gains would be more in-line with LTs PLUS a custom tune. Taboo or not, it sound slimey to me. First, the word gets spread that they are RT knock offs or even the same, LOL!! Dont forget, the shape of headers on the outside has nothing to do with the craftsmanship and welding on the inside. Then, this rediculous claim of 40hp gains in a controlled study. This forum is way too refined for that.
I was told 30-40 whp with them and the cat delete.
Out Of Control!!
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 13,394
Likes: 6
From: San Diego
2015 S212
Kleemans are considered mid-lenghts. My honest guess would be closer to 25 but 30 is realistic depending on gas used, etc.
MBWorld Founder
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,599
Likes: 7
From: Scottsdale (aka The Surface of the Sun)
**** ADMIN WARNING ****
The discussion, sale, promotion and/or advertising of COPY-CAT, KNOCK OFF and/or REPLICA product is specifically prohibited on this site.
As such, any posts regarding a certain brand of header that is a stolen design from RENNTech will be deleted and certain members have already been given warnings and/or infractions.
This site will not allow the promotion of products at the expense of those that spent hard money and time to design something.
This message does not endorse the RT headers, but is a condemnation on those that are harming good verdors and the indutry as a whole.
Think about it - Do you have a fake Rolex? Do you sport fake Nike Jordan's and fake Ralph Loren or Ed Hardy cothes? Do you buy your wife/GF a fake LV purse? This is the same as supporting "fake" RENNTech headers (or any other REAL tuner for that matter).
thanks
Brad
The discussion, sale, promotion and/or advertising of COPY-CAT, KNOCK OFF and/or REPLICA product is specifically prohibited on this site.
As such, any posts regarding a certain brand of header that is a stolen design from RENNTech will be deleted and certain members have already been given warnings and/or infractions.
This site will not allow the promotion of products at the expense of those that spent hard money and time to design something.
This message does not endorse the RT headers, but is a condemnation on those that are harming good verdors and the indutry as a whole.
Think about it - Do you have a fake Rolex? Do you sport fake Nike Jordan's and fake Ralph Loren or Ed Hardy cothes? Do you buy your wife/GF a fake LV purse? This is the same as supporting "fake" RENNTech headers (or any other REAL tuner for that matter).
thanks
Brad
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Out Of Control!!
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 13,394
Likes: 6
From: San Diego
2015 S212
Contrary to Jackass...er...Jangy's doubts of my motives, these taboo headers are well made inside and out( polished stainless, double welded, and ports cleaned up by hand, with CNC flanges) and made +42whp on my car within three hours of the oringal dyno.
Wow...I never meant to make it personal, but here we go...Just to be clear....you are claiming a gain of 40whp with shorty headers. Even funnier is that you claim shorty headers add 36whp on a mustang dyno. Back calculate your drivetrain loss and tell me if you honestly think shorty headers can gain you 5hp at the crank? That is what I call bs on. It simply can not happen. Now, there are plenty of ways to have a dyno graph show it.......
Contact Marco @ Magnusmotorsports where I did my work if you don't beleive me. Magnus is one of the biggest names in the 4G63 tuning seen for over 15 years. They make 1400+hp 4 cyl race engines for the biggest names out there.
I never said it takes extra skill. I'm saying that god could have installed these shorties on and you simply wouldn't gain 50hp.
Clearly I am doctoring my dyno's for to promote the secret shorty header underground cult agenda....Honestly what is wrong with some of the people on this board...This crazy talk sounds like a fox news special rather then a discussion amongst supposedly educated car enthusiasts. At the end of the day the OP of this thread thanked me and made a decision based on my help, so I am happy to have shared...Despite the naysayers.
Wow...I never meant to make it personal, but here we go...Just to be clear....you are claiming a gain of 40whp with shorty headers. Even funnier is that you claim shorty headers add 36whp on a mustang dyno. Back calculate your drivetrain loss and tell me if you honestly think shorty headers can gain you 5hp at the crank? That is what I call bs on. It simply can not happen. Now, there are plenty of ways to have a dyno graph show it.......
Contact Marco @ Magnusmotorsports where I did my work if you don't beleive me. Magnus is one of the biggest names in the 4G63 tuning seen for over 15 years. They make 1400+hp 4 cyl race engines for the biggest names out there.
I never said it takes extra skill. I'm saying that god could have installed these shorties on and you simply wouldn't gain 50hp.
Clearly I am doctoring my dyno's for to promote the secret shorty header underground cult agenda....Honestly what is wrong with some of the people on this board...This crazy talk sounds like a fox news special rather then a discussion amongst supposedly educated car enthusiasts. At the end of the day the OP of this thread thanked me and made a decision based on my help, so I am happy to have shared...Despite the naysayers.
BTW, what tune did you run and what else was on the car when you gained +42whp?
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,697
Likes: 381
2005 E55
how can a tiny log header with stock cats make 40whp and the mid length with cat delete make 25-30? either the dyno was messed up or the car put down very low numbers on the before dyno.
My car 100% stock put down 403whp,460whp with 180pulley and now its sitting at 420-30whp with stock pulley and tune.Dyno didnt record second pull and the 3rd pull made 420,so we guesed the car would of made 430 on the run that didnt get recorded
Ill be happying with 450whp on stock boost all day.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,380
Likes: 64
From: Toronto
CLS63 PP
You are missing my point altogether. I am glad OP thanked you but am curious to see if he is ultimately happy with the product when he has been fed +42whp. We all know that the reality shows on the track and that dynos are about as accurate as my guess. I don't think you are doctoring or lying. I think you have bought into the concept that shorties can even be compared to LTs WITH a custom tune. This is a topic that has been around and around many times so when you jump in and say things against reason it will get you lashed.
BTW, what tune did you run and what else was on the car when you gained +42whp?
BTW, what tune did you run and what else was on the car when you gained +42whp?
Last edited by KLR CLS; Aug 24, 2010 at 03:54 PM.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,137
Likes: 4
From: California, USA
E63 P30, CL500 Sport
My post was deleted as well.... 
I didn't endorse any of the products. I was just asking him if he was really sure he gained the advertised gains and verified it by independent dynos, track results, etc....
I didn't endorse any of the products. I was just asking him if he was really sure he gained the advertised gains and verified it by independent dynos, track results, etc....
Last edited by MB_Forever; Aug 24, 2010 at 03:48 PM.
Out Of Control!!
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 13,394
Likes: 6
From: San Diego
2015 S212
BTW, what tune did you run and what else was on the car when you gained +42whp?
Well my apologies if I took the "slimey" comment personally, but not sure how else to take it. I never once said Shorties were superior or equal to long tubes, just that headers I installed made 42whp before and after with no tune. Just bolt on with new hardware. We can discuss my experiences through PM if you lilke.
Well my apologies if I took the "slimey" comment personally, but not sure how else to take it. I never once said Shorties were superior or equal to long tubes, just that headers I installed made 42whp before and after with no tune. Just bolt on with new hardware. We can discuss my experiences through PM if you lilke.
Former Vendor of MBWorld
iTrader: (1)
Joined: May 2008
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From: Houston
2003 W211 E55, 2003 W220 S600
jangy quick question. would you by any chance know what elements of the tune a person alters when they tune car for after market headers. For exmaple with the addition of a pulley the tuner usually adds fuel.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,380
Likes: 64
From: Toronto
CLS63 PP
Ill be happy with 30,but Im hoping 40whp since the cars primary cats are gone.
how can a tiny log header with stock cats make 40whp and the mid length with cat delete make 25-30? either the dyno was messed up or the car put down very low numbers on the before dyno.
My car 100% stock put down 403whp,460whp with 180pulley and now its sitting at 420-30whp with stock pulley and tune.Dyno didnt record second pull and the 3rd pull made 420,so we guesed the car would of made 430 on the run that didnt get recorded
Ill be happying with 450whp on stock boost all day.
how can a tiny log header with stock cats make 40whp and the mid length with cat delete make 25-30? either the dyno was messed up or the car put down very low numbers on the before dyno.
My car 100% stock put down 403whp,460whp with 180pulley and now its sitting at 420-30whp with stock pulley and tune.Dyno didnt record second pull and the 3rd pull made 420,so we guesed the car would of made 430 on the run that didnt get recorded
Ill be happying with 450whp on stock boost all day.
My car made an average of 406 (408 high, 403 low) whp stock and 443, and 448 on two sucessive pulls after my header install. With just headers, 185mm pulley and Eurocharged tune I made 500whp and 575 WTQ, up a total of 94whp and 123wtq with IAT's over 174 degrees. With cooler IAT's would be another 25whp easy.
Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,909
Likes: 4
From: San Diego
F-250
As the OP, I want to thank everyone for thier input. I had no clue there was an issue with one of the header options we have, but now I know. Based on all the feedback, I think the Short header will yeild somewhere around 20HP or better. that is an OK gain, and I do not have any misconceptions. If I got 42, and it was real.. cool. But regardless of my direction, I am not worried about that. In fact, I will get a stock baseline, throw on all the mods, (tune) and dyno again. then, Ill go to the track with my new set up and see what it does. Hopefully my tuner can make it all work...
I love the passion, but am upset someone was put on probabtion for sharing thier experienece. I am not sure there is any info on not discussing "BLM" headers, but i think I have the info I needed, and this can be closed. Thanks everyone!!
..
I love the passion, but am upset someone was put on probabtion for sharing thier experienece. I am not sure there is any info on not discussing "BLM" headers, but i think I have the info I needed, and this can be closed. Thanks everyone!!
..
Last edited by Bramage; Aug 24, 2010 at 04:12 PM.
Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,909
Likes: 4
From: San Diego
F-250
Air Fuel Mixture
Timing
You tweek these based on the flow / capabilities of the engine, and optimize through the RPM range. So the answer if tuning just headers would probably just be mixture (Air / Fuel)
Out Of Control!!
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 13,394
Likes: 6
From: San Diego
2015 S212
Now, we all know that you can try to squeeze every last ounce out by running a bit lean and advancing the timing BUT we all also know what can happen. To do it once to get great dyno numbers is fine but I stayed a little more conservative with mine.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,825
Likes: 17
From: Southern California
E55 w/ goods, Z32 Project underway
My car made an average of 406 (408 high, 403 low) whp stock and 443, and 448 on two sucessive pulls after my header install. With just headers, 185mm pulley and Eurocharged tune I made 500whp and 575 WTQ, up a total of 94whp and 123wtq with IAT's over 174 degrees. With cooler IAT's would be another 25whp easy.
Former Vendor of MBWorld
iTrader: (1)
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 12,139
Likes: 295
From: Houston
2003 W211 E55, 2003 W220 S600
Keep in mind that these cars run fairly rich for protection. Adding headers will do a few things. One less backpressure when you are loading the chamber so you actually drop in boost. Also, now you have much higher velocity and volume of air flowing, so timing is also needed.
Now, we all know that you can try to squeeze every last ounce out by running a bit lean and advancing the timing BUT we all also know what can happen. To do it once to get great dyno numbers is fine but I stayed a little more conservative with mine.
Now, we all know that you can try to squeeze every last ounce out by running a bit lean and advancing the timing BUT we all also know what can happen. To do it once to get great dyno numbers is fine but I stayed a little more conservative with mine.
