Snogard

Yes to some degree, but i think that most people here with wiggle problems have OEM specificated toe-in setting, and i suspect that this toe in becomes even greater toe-in at WOT and THAT makes a wiggle. But that is only my opinion.
Forget about my previous setting on my car (which was waaaay out). All i know is that now i have zero toe on rear axle, NO WIGGLE at all and no other negative effects of negative zero at all. And that is all that matters to me personaly.
I am willing to bet that if i set my rear axle to OEM specified toe-in, that i will have wiggle back. Thats is my strong beleaving.

Snogard

Really? And why does then rear wheels try to radialy overtake the vehicle body (so tending to TOE-IN) when you look at the side of the vehicle when someone is smashing the throttle from standstill??

But yes, i agree that when in stady motion, allw heels DOES tend to tou out. But not rear wheels under full acceleration.

Snogard

To me it seems quit oposite; does anyone except me in reality try to set toe zero on our car so he can put down first hand experience? Nope. So far none in this thread except me.
And i dont care about theory of toe-in for any price on our car and rear axle. Maybe with stiff bushings. But not with OEM suspension. Sometimes theory doesnt work in practice, even if 100 people (with only theory experiences) is telling me that i should set back axle alignment back to toe-in, i wont do it, because all i know is that i dont have wiggle any more with rear axle set to zero toe and that i have no negative effects of toe zero. Now that i know that it have absolutely no negative effects on the car (except elimination of wiggle) i wont change toe zero back to OEM specs for no money.

I f you think logicaly, it is obviously that our mushy rubber bushings are too soft for our torque. So under heavy load on our car something is obviously happening. And it could not be anything else then OEM specificated toe-in becomes even greater toe-in under load. And THAT is making the wiggle.

But tzhen again that is only my (logical) thinking and my first hand experience. And each one creates its own destinity... So i said enough in this thread. I just hope that someone with wiggle will be brave enough to trie to set his rear axle aliognment to zero toe and report back about elimination of wiggle. Maybe i am wrong and my car just happens to like toe zero. But until someone else try to go to toe zero, i am firm believer of my theory.

Snogard

Can you please take time and explain to me step by step how do you think rear wheels on our car tend to tou-out under acceleartion? Please. Because the more me and my friends discuss and look at the alignment and look at the movement of the wheels under load, the more we are 100% that under load our rear wheels tend to toe-in. A lot of toe-in.
It is obviously that under no load (coasting down the road) all wheels tend to tou out because of weight and drag of the wheels. Thats normal. But when you put 700+ Nm of torque on rear exle, there is totaly different story - wheels are trying to "overtake" the car body in radius with zero point around rear dif. So tend to toe-in, not toe-out. Or??

AMGPilot

What exactly is "Radialy overtake the vehicle body"?

I'm seeing in your post's a complete and total lack of understanding of suspension and what's going on.

AMGPilot

Okay in your previous post's the car toe's out in WOT (Which it does) now it toe's in, I'm firmly convinced that you don't understand any of this

AMGPilot

Ummmmmm I know for a fact that CynCarvin32 knows what he's talking about (I've been on the track with him) and I know that I know what I'm talking about and yes we BOTH have played with toe in and toe out, we not only understand the theory but we have proven cause and effect from empirical test's.

Add to that now you don't know if you've toe'd the car in or out and at best your post's are pure speculation and at worst dangerous mis-information

AMGPilot

do this, get yourself a set of toe-plates, disconnect the rear airspring, damper and swaybar and sweep the suspension, you will learn a lot. It's something I've done with EVERY car I've owned. It helps to make more informed choices when it comes to ride height and suspension setups.

Using statements and terminology like this Just shows to others that do understand the subject at heart that you don't understand the subject. You might be able to bull**** your friends with talk like that but for people that know.... well... it's just that, bull****....

Velociabstract

If you had lots of toe out before and now you have 0 toe the car will indeed feel much better so I understand your enthusiasm. I didn't notice much difference under braking between in or out. Under acceleration I get less wheel spin with a little toe in. The biggest difference is cornering at the limit and fast transitions. The car is more predictable with some toe in. With toe out the rear of the car wants to let loose before the front. I'm told by my race alignment shop that toe out is faster on a race car if set up correctly for it. But every time I've gone with 0 toe or toe out in the rear I'm slower or spin out. It makes the car tricky to hang on to. On the other end of the car, I love toe out. It's real darty on the street but wonderful on the track.

Les

Snogard

Thats all you got? O.K., but still you didnt explain to me how in the world could wheel which is trying to radialy overtake the vehicle (so the whole wheel is trying to go faster then vehicle and because it can obviously not do that, it just (front part of the rear wheel) tending to go (point to) toward center front of vehicle) - tend to toe-out?? That is called toe-in and not toe-out. Except when in steady motion on coast down when weight of the wheel and drag itself pulls wheel back (toe-out).

Another thing, still there is no one here (especialy not you with your smart attitude) except me with wiggle problems that can speak from first hand experience what zero toe on rear axle on our cars do to that phenomen.

Snogard

I perfectly understand all of that and also agree with all of that. But still all that doesnt negate my theory-that zero toe on rear axle can eliminate wiggle problem on our car.

Snogard

That was type mistake and you know that. English is not mine mother language and i am trying my best as i already told. So sorry that i made a mistake.


It is very obvios if you think logicaly (and if you just take few seconds TO LOOK at the side of the car (at the rear wheel) when someone is smashing the throttle (no matter if standstill or while driving the car). If you will take few seconds for that maybe you will stop to type internet theoretics and maybe think about real world happenning of suspension.

And for your knoledge; racing all days around the track and being on that board 24/7 or having 3 car work shops in family and DAILY work (in reality, not just with mouth) on cars is different story.

Question for you; How many engines did you swap YOURSELF on E55 W211? How many M113.990 (991) engines did you take apart to the latest bolt and put it back together? How many suspension parts did you change yourself on W211 E55 AMG? How many times did you see (or better do it YOURSELF) how alignment is done on rear axle on our car? How many cars did you restorate?And in the end: On how many boards is your personal car which is made and tuned from YOUR HANDS (doesnt matter if BMW, Merc or Daihatsu) the strongest (or one of the strongest) car on board? And yet you are telling ME that i have no knolidge? Well, i dont have to say anything.
And some questions for you so you can proove us that you are real world knolidge master
, not just internet theoretic;
How many gears does E55AMGW211 oil pump have? And how many gears does W220 S55 oil pump have? What does it take to change out rear toe arm? How stiff is rear toe arm inner bushing after 100.000 miles? Please....Here is your chance to proove your knolidge...

Last question for you; What will you do (eat yourself maybe?) when someone will do exactly that: Have wiggle problems, then set rear axle to toe zero and report here that wiggle is gone and no ill efects are there? What will you do then?

I am done in this thread.

P.S. If i have only few posts here it doesnt mean that i have not bin active here for a long time before i start posting and that i have not very good relationship with many members here (except you of course). So stop beeing ashole because nobody need that and stop consulting me and rather start to argument your theorys in the exchange of selling your internet theories. O.K.?

P.S.P.S. If you are so knolidgable , how comes that (in PM few months ago, remeber?) you have trying to convince me that i have no compression on my engine (and all you knew about my engine at that time was that i had slight misfire, nothing else). If you are so good in theory that you are good in analyzing engine problems, then yeah, hat down to you M8.

AgSilver

Toe Links (Evo, Renntec, etc) and Kmac bushings will put you into a whole different world.

splinter

There’s no need to get all worked up.

Snogard

I know that. But we are discussing WHY is that so...

Snogard

Tell that Mr. AMGPilot

AMGPilot

If you are trying to claim that I have had any contact with you before this thread started I've got news for you, you are seriously wrong, I not only checked my PM's (none between you and I) and my posting history (That's easy you have 48 post's simple matter of searching for my screen name) and guess what.... No threads other than this one exist with both of our screen names.

Making a "P.S.P.S." that claims we have had contact on a totally unrelated matter is the tactic of a person that not only has lost the argument but has become desperate about losing...

Face it, you are an enthusiastic person but you don't know what you are talking about and you painted yourself into a corner, rather than posting up that you made a mistake and that you learned something in the thread, you argued and started to lie to try to save face

Snogard

Just for @AMGPilot!!!!

http://www.mgf.ultimatemg.com/group2...n/tracking.htm



Citat:

"On the driven wheels the net forces are in the opposing direction under acceleration, and the force reaction to acceleration is in the same direction as the direction of travel. The net result of this is that the driven wheels TEND TO TOE_IN. Under constant velocity, forces typically cancel out, so the motive force equals the resistive force, and hence the wheels tend towards their static position. Under deceleration, however, the toe-angle changes are in the same direction as that shown above for the undriven wheels."

End of citat.



Thank you veery much. See ya. Inbetween do some real work, not just reading the internet. And learn to listen to people with first hand experience.

P.S. Do i need to public post your PM? Dont think so....but if you will push some more, i will do exactly that. All our conversation is saved and I WILL post it. Just ask for it...

P.S.P.S.

What will you do NOW, Mr.smart? Continue to insult me, rather to post that YOU made a mistake (because you thought that i am another boy with no experience and full of bull****? Well, do good thinking before you post anything else here. My advice.

Snogard

OOHHH...It si VERY related. It shows that you are trying to be super smart ALWAYS and EVERYWHERE, no matter of your (lack of) experiences.
As i was reading your history posts on this board, i can see that you are having big problems with your ego. It is time that someone prooves you that you are strong only with your mouth, not with your knolidge to help people on board. And i am trying to do exactly THAT. Try to help people with my story about how did i solve wiggle problem. But you had to make this thread full of bul****t. Hope that admin will clear your insulting and knolidgless posts.

AMGPilot

Actually, yes, yes you do need to post our supposed pm's, make sure that they are screen captures that show the mbworld site window and all revenant site info, if they are emails then post with complete header information that way we can see that they are "authentic"

wsybert

Snogard, there is no theory here, but fact based on proven vehicle dynamics.
Toe in will add more stability to the rear of a vehicle. Period. Mercedes, BMW, Ford... doesn't matter the car manufacturer. Velociabstract pointed out that you may have had excessive tow out, and your recent correction to neutral toe gave you stability. It should. Saying that 0 (or neutral) toe is the fix for wiggle, is just not completely accurate. It helped in your case, but no all cases are the same.
You need to research more on the type of suspension on our cars. I am not completely familiar with the dynamics of the 5 link suspension, however, what I have seen and read online, it makes sense why it would tow out under acceleration. Start HERE. Just so you know, I would have agreed with you and your recent post, had I not researched a multi-link setup.

Snogard

Once again to make things clear for ever;

Rear wheels on our cars (on ALL RWD cars) under acceleration tend to TOE-IN , NOT TOE-OUT like Mr.AMGPilot is trying to fake all the people on the board (which i prooved with link i have posted AND with simple logic to look at the side of the vehicle (look at the rear wheel) when someone in the car is smashing the throttle). So, with that said and with known fact that OEM alignment setting on our cars on rear axle is already toe-in, that only means that under acceleration rear wheels our cars toe-in even more ( A LOT MORE). So that is the reason for wiggle. And not to forget-that is also the reason for abnormaly short life of our rear tyres (and not so much because of camber). Some rare people indeed do not have wiggle, but that is only because their alignment of rear axle is more toe-zero, then toe-in. Thats it. Plain and simple. And untill someone else proove to me that i am wrong, i will strongly beleave in my theory, which actualy isnt only theory, bit it is showing itself in practice very well. And yeah, i could be wrong and toe zero does not help to get rid of wiggle at all. I left that chance open. BUT with plain simple logic and with base knolidge about suspension (and about our cars OEM alignment values and softness of bushes and amount of our cars torque) and with known fact that something is shortening the life our rear tyres TOO MUCH there is not hard to belive that my theory (which like i already said is not just the theory in my case, but is is indeed working) is correct.
So, i think theorys like that are only WELCOME for people with wiggle problems, that are my thoughts. If i am wrong, then i am wrong. No ill efects. BUT if i am wright, how many people will be happy because they will get rid of wiggle, they will prolong the life of their rear tyres on simple way and with no ill effects and with no costs? Is that so hard to understand? We are here TO HELP each other. So if i am able to help only 1 person to get rid of wiggle i will be happy. And that is the point of that thread. But like always someone must be a___le and full the thread with nonsuported claims and to confuse people. Now what can i do more? I told my story, i posted link that clearly shows that i am wright and AMGPilot was (waaay) wrong. So only thing that left for people now is to choose which one to believe. And i think if someone read the thread all over it, it should be clear very soon who is telling bul**** and who is giving some competent informations to help people with them.
Once again, i hope that admin will clear bul****t posts here and left usefull posts, so people can decide if they are willing to try to solve wiggle problems AND prolong rear tyre life on "my way" or not. And that should be the point of that thread. Period.

Snogard

Just one piece of your PM to me:
Citat:
"THe repair was a new block and fitted pistons ($16,000 for the block and pistons) total cost of the repair was north of $28,000" End of citat.

Is that enough to refresh your memory? If not, i will ask admin to post the full conversation... But point is already made ANYWAY; I prooved to you that you are a lier (not me like you are trying to fake people) and that you are full of b___it, not me (like you are also trying to fake people) and that YOU have made a mistake, not me like you are ALSO trying to fake people. And for me thats enough. You on the other hand, you can continue to make yourself even bigger ashole with some more idiotic posts, or you may shutup here and let the people decide what is wright and what is wrong.

Btw. you didnt answer my questions in my yesterday post.... It is because your lack of knolidge, or because you are afraid that your grave will be even deeper?

splinter

It's far too late for that.

“When proven results disagree with your premise, invent a new hypothesis.” -Doug Roe, SAE

Snogard

At least there is one link posted here by me which clearly shows WHO is telling bul___t. And nobody can negate this, no matter how it hates the truth.