chawkins2001

No one really knows the limits of our bottom ends, since most of the failaures have been due to inefficient fueling and bad tunes.

I wanted to open a discussion about the limits of our stock bottom ends with two things in mind:

1. The first issue I would like to eliminate is, that you would have more than adequate fueling in place
2. You have a strong safe tune in place

With those two points been covered, this really is aimed at my combo of going to E85, which adds another level of safety, due to how cool the fuel runs, and ho clean it is.

Our bottoms consist of forged rods, crank and hyper pistons which is clearly the weak point.

Has anyone pushed these cars to 600-650rwhp safely, and run this combo for a long period of time?

Lets hear your thoughts and reasoning on what you think our motors can handle

320 dreamer

craig i know you have seen jason's work on erics twin charged srt-6. i believe if you went the same route of boring the nickasil lining , sleeving the block and run low compression ross pistons 600+ rwhp would be attainable coupled with headwork and eliminating the bottleneck at the i/c. can i guess your about to try!!

e500slr

Exotic already cracked 600whp with worked heads on his CL55. The torque figure of over 700 wheel torques is also insane, if you use the metric Nm torque reading then he's making about 1200Nm of torque at the engine given an 18% loss to the wheels. He made a thread about building his internals up.

urbamworm

I think you are going to get a bunch of "opinions" and no true facts since like you said, nobody REALLY knows. You will also get all the references to messed up pistons which I also don't think should be weighed in to heavily since those are all on stock intercooled (higher intake air temps) systems and often improperly fueled.

I guess there is really only one true way to find out and that will be when people start running the Weistec supercharger or perhaps the Evosport intercoolers and some big pullies/and or smaller supercharger pulley combined.

e55amgrocket

After seeing the connecting rods and the crankshaft recently it's ashamed they put junk pistons in these cars. The bottom end looks like it can take some power but I think we're going to see how much pretty soon. I wish these things were built like the ford supercharged motors that have made over 1000hp on stock blocks.

Forrest Gump 9

I'm an optimistic fool, I'm saying 800whp easily. But that'll be with two big snails hanging off the heads.

Stock Evo engine had been running 600+whp and running 9's pass. Honda S2000 had done 700+whp. Both of them are 4bangers, 2.0l engine. We have almost 3x the displacement and twice the number of slugs, so i dont see why not.

I hate to say this, but it's all in the tune mang!! Good luck pushing the limit. I'll be extremely happy to crack the 10's barrier in my shrimp boat.

GT-ER

I don't see 700+whp being a problem. You are right, every time someone breaks they are on stock fueling or a noticeably bad tune. My GTI 1.8T put down an easy 380+whp w/ 340+wtrq on the bone stock bottom end with pencil sized rods and never broke...on a 1.8L 4cyl engine. You think an engine 3 times larger with twice as many cylinders, forged rods and hyper pistons ( which aren't the crap most people make them sound to be ) can't put out a measly 700whp ( measly in comparison ). Especially if we turbocharge it.

The what if's are endless however, so until someone really pushes one of these engines with a PROPER TUNING SOLUTION then we may never know.

GT-ER

BTW- I see VRUS put down 645whp on the stock engine according to drag times.

vietjdmboi

im not sure actually how tunable our ecu's are but most high hp cars (evos, civic, s2000, etc etc) all have either a full standalone or an stock ecu with an advance tuning program that gives the user fully tunable fuel, ignition, timing tables and etc. we are still limited to what out tuning program allows us.

ex: Motec M84 features -

• Windows based ECU Manager tuning software with user definable screen layouts
  
• Individual cylinder tuning of both fuel delivery and ignition timing
• Suits modern engines, including those with coil per cylinder ignition
• Fully configurable axis points on all tables
  
• Highly configurable crank and cam trigger inputs to suit almost all OEM sensors and tooth patterns
• Single Wideband Lambda input (dual optional)

Additional Distinct Features

• Capable of advanced control functions, such as:
  • Traction control
  • Overrun boost enhancement (anti-lag)
  • Gear change ignition cut (flat shift)
  • Boost control
  • NEW: Nitrous injection
  • Dual stage injection (Hi/Lo injection)
• Configurable sensor inputs including custom calibrations
• Capable of receiving and transmitting data via the CAN bus
• Capable of receiving data from two Lambda measurement devices via CAN
• Integrated advanced diagnostics, including injector and crank trigger diagnostics
• Ref/Sync capture displayed on the built-in digital oscilloscope

Data Acquisition

• Internal data logging (512 kB) with fast download via CAN
• State of the art i2 Standarddata analysis software
• Now with 100 Hz max logging rate

unagi1

Well I guess in order to have the discussion, you'd sort of have to address the first two points you mentioned, right? So what is defined as adequate fueling and what is defined as a strong safe tune on an e55?

Now I didn't buy the e55 to mod it, I already have 2 money pits don't need a 3rd! But I'd like to hear thoughts on what the engine is capable of as well. I don't have a reference point on the engine, so hard for me to chime in as I'm not familiar with the platform.

For example, for a 500whp tune, What AFR, at what static pressure at what RPM and boost combination is considered safe? How much additional timing is considered safe on the motor at this level of power? What about oil temp, IAT, and EGT temps? And that's just with 91/93 octane, what are your expectations with using different fuels such as e85, 104 or even c16?

Sorry I know it's a lot of questions, but you have to start I think with some sort of baseline and then from those variables perhaps project to what power level the bottom end can handle.

chawkins2001

I will be pumping e85 from the tank with two 340lph pumps into a -6an line, from there it will go into my TTM fuel rail setup with 1000cc squirtters. I will also be widening the inlet into the fuel rail a few extra mm's per Brooke's recommendation. That fuel system should be more than adequate to handle 600rwhp on the corn.

Now to address tuning, I have never run any of my cars on ethanol before, so I am not sure what is considered a safe a/f and timing setup, but my tuner knows what type of tunes I run, and they are not aggressive at all.

I also have a plethora of mustang tuners that have tuned 1000rwhp mustang's on the corn who will be in my corner.

blackbenzz

Take a look at the ring lands of a stock piston. Weakest point of the engine in my opinion

unagi1

That's way more than enough for 650whp on gasoline...I'm sure your e85 friends have chimed in on what you need for an e85 tune. Can the stock ECU even properly handle 1000cc injectors? On the Mustang an added chip tune can do it, for example with a higher flowing MAF. On my Mr2, I've got a full standalone anyways (AEM) running MAP.

What are the typical VE mods on this motor? more efficiency, less boost, less heat, less melted pistons, etc.

GT-ER

The problem is, who is going to tune your car? If you have someone that can easily dyno tune your car then you are saved. I have no such luck.

GT-ER

Weakest? YES... Weak? Not necessarily.

BRABUS786

I think the max rwhp our engines will handle without forged pistons will be around 620 to 650,

Acid

chawkins2001

That is what I was thinking, around 600rwhp-620rwhp.... All my work is done by a damn good shop with an in house dyno and strong tuner. Work quality is not a concern, rather how much power can the ring lands and hyper pistons handle.

In a perfect world, sleeving the block and dropping in low comp billet pistons would be the order of the day.

chawkins2001

But why fix something that is not broken, until the Texas crew and maybe a couple tuners chime in, it is all hearsay. Brooke I know has been through several blocks, and I am sure TTM and EC have their opinions to which would be nice to hear.

blackbenzz

When you're addressing the limits of a motor you look at the weakest point right???

GT-ER

No doubt about it, and when building the engine I will mostly likely start with the pistons...but what Chawkins is looking for is how much the engine can handle in stock form and I really honestly believe that people underrate the stock pistons.

vietjdmboi

with the right tuning software or standalone, i'm sure these motors can handle 650-700whp.

GT-ER

If only a vendor would take the first step into making a software that would allow us to tune our ECU's. This would be fantastic. I've tuned cars with HP Tuners ( the best software I've ever used, simply fantastic ), Maestro 7 ( kinda noobish with it so I dare not review it much ) and Uprev Osiris ( sucks when compared to HP Tuners, but fantastic when compared to having nothing like we do ) and am saddened that the Mercedes world doesn't have ANYTHING available.

vietjdmboi

Im sure that if we really wanted and money isnt to much of an issue, getting a conversion harness built to plug into ecu plugs and using whatever standalone we could afford would be awesome. I just don't know if we can flat out remove the ecm and use a standalone in place of it. If anyone if really interested, I would look into John Reed Racing. He builds harnesses that will accommodate motec for Lamborghinis and multiple other cars so I dont see how our cars could be much different.

pearlpower

Everything at this point is pure conjecture as the highest HP cars have blown their motors with the stock ignition setup, even with a ton of tuning and fuel. The keyword here is 'reliable.' 900hp is meaningless if the motor goes south.

chawkins2001

Exactly right brotha, that is why I started this thread before I switched over to E85. Making 470rwhp on s dynamics dyno, puts you at 510-520 on a dynojet, now figure in switching over to e85, I could see another jump to around 570rwhp.

Add a 195mm in and take the 180mm off, would put you at 600rwhp IMO. Now the question becomes, can our motors hold that, and for how long.

Given, everyone has different driving habits, and my setup is mostly going to cars shows, on the dyno or at the track.

Onething I am interested in seeing is what type of power weistec will be making on our cars. Surely they have down some research on the limits of our bottoms end, and would not out out a product that just starts popping motors all over the place. That 2.9 is going to put out a minimum of 600rwhp IMO, so only time will tell.