Getting heads done..... Need opinions
06-06-2012, 04:16 PM
#26
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Northern Va
Posts: 2,156
Likes: 0
Received 6 Likes
on
3 Posts
Dirt Scooters
Hey rocket you know I usually agree with you my friend. But I have to ask a few questions here.
1. WHY would you check EVERY spring pressure in an engine reving below 7K? Sure it doesn't hurt, but it is OVERKILL, IMHO. New springs really only needed checked on a tension meter, as the installed height will NOT vary that much. In general.
2. Why would you adjust everyone as small differences make NO difference in low revving engines? AKA there is NO performance to be had here if they are out 10-20 pounds per spring, which the odds are they will not be.
I will agree that you guys are in uncharted waters with MB heads. But a head is a head to a engine shop. The flow bench tells all the results, and couldn't careless wether it was a GM, Ford, MB, or Veryon head on it.
PS: My last Ford head, larger valves, cut exhaust out, remove EGR bump, flow test, 5 angle, new valves, seats, guides, seals, was right around $1K.
Just food for thought here. carry on
1. WHY would you check EVERY spring pressure in an engine reving below 7K? Sure it doesn't hurt, but it is OVERKILL, IMHO. New springs really only needed checked on a tension meter, as the installed height will NOT vary that much. In general.
2. Why would you adjust everyone as small differences make NO difference in low revving engines? AKA there is NO performance to be had here if they are out 10-20 pounds per spring, which the odds are they will not be.
I will agree that you guys are in uncharted waters with MB heads. But a head is a head to a engine shop. The flow bench tells all the results, and couldn't careless wether it was a GM, Ford, MB, or Veryon head on it.
PS: My last Ford head, larger valves, cut exhaust out, remove EGR bump, flow test, 5 angle, new valves, seats, guides, seals, was right around $1K.
Just food for thought here. carry on
06-06-2012, 07:36 PM
#27
MBWorld Fanatic!
Because he doesn't take shortcuts on anything. There's a reason he's gotten so far at what he does and a flow bench by itself doesn't mean everything. I'm also turning over 6800rpm which is starting to get up there and will spin it a little harder after the build. With the PTE cams spring pressure does matter and PTV clearance is .08 10 degrees after TDC so valve control matters and i wouldn't take a chance on a weak valve spring. Also coil bind is closer than you would think with the PTE cams and stock springs so its better to know how far to rev it than do it and see what happens. Valve control does matter and DOES make power. I agree 1000% that heads are heads and i've said that a hundred times. It doesn't matter what make they are. As far as what you paid on the Ford heads i don't know who did them or what heads they were but i believe you get what you pay for. Not saying they were bad but look at the reputable places and see what they charge and you will find the norm is around $2500. Send your 3 valve ford heads in that are very similar to our to Livernois motorsports that just CNC's them and its $2699. GT500 4 valve heads will set you back $3400 in labor for the same service on your own heads.
First thing, they were 2 valve 5.0 heads, so cost for them IS cheap I will admit. But also AFR sells CNC heads for this pig for only $1700 a pair.
As far as you get what you pay for, me and you BOTH know this is NOT a true statement all the time. You get what you ask for, and how much you know plays a HUGE role in that amount. If you roll up in a E55 and say, I wont as much as you can give me, they will answer no problem 5K+. Now if you roll up and say, I would like them flow benched, 5 angle VJ, larger valves by .1" and by the way remove the EGR bump, they will know what you are talking about, and the price comes down.
In any case, good luck to all, and learn a little BEFORE you approach ANY engine shop, IMHO.
PS: Spring bind is a VERY easy calculated number, and I REALLY doubt you were close to it. AS after all, NO one builds a radicle cam for our engines. Some have an extra .040-.070 lift, which really doesn't mean a hill of beans in the real world, just saying.
06-06-2012, 08:19 PM
#28
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Northern Va
Posts: 2,156
Likes: 0
Received 6 Likes
on
3 Posts
Dirt Scooters
Hey my friend, not trying to start an issue, but in some cases, your money approch is wrong.
First thing, they were 2 valve 5.0 heads, so cost for them IS cheap I will admit. But also AFR sells CNC heads for this pig for only $1700 a pair.
As far as you get what you pay for, me and you BOTH know this is NOT a true statement all the time. You get what you ask for, and how much you know plays a HUGE role in that amount. If you roll up in a E55 and say, I wont as much as you can give me, they will answer no problem 5K+. Now if you roll up and say, I would like them flow benched, 5 angle VJ, larger valves by .1" and by the way remove the EGR bump, they will know what you are talking about, and the price comes down.
In any case, good luck to all, and learn a little BEFORE you approach ANY engine shop, IMHO.
PS: Spring bind is a VERY easy calculated number, and I REALLY doubt you were close to it. AS after all, NO one builds a radicle cam for our engines. Some have an extra .040-.070 lift, which really doesn't mean a hill of beans in the real world, just saying.
First thing, they were 2 valve 5.0 heads, so cost for them IS cheap I will admit. But also AFR sells CNC heads for this pig for only $1700 a pair.
As far as you get what you pay for, me and you BOTH know this is NOT a true statement all the time. You get what you ask for, and how much you know plays a HUGE role in that amount. If you roll up in a E55 and say, I wont as much as you can give me, they will answer no problem 5K+. Now if you roll up and say, I would like them flow benched, 5 angle VJ, larger valves by .1" and by the way remove the EGR bump, they will know what you are talking about, and the price comes down.
In any case, good luck to all, and learn a little BEFORE you approach ANY engine shop, IMHO.
PS: Spring bind is a VERY easy calculated number, and I REALLY doubt you were close to it. AS after all, NO one builds a radicle cam for our engines. Some have an extra .040-.070 lift, which really doesn't mean a hill of beans in the real world, just saying.
06-07-2012, 06:39 AM
#29
MBWorld Fanatic!
Of course 5.0 heads will be cheaper and there are so many made that makes a big difference as we both know. Theres a reason you can buy AFR CNC heads for $1700 and you can buy Edelbrock SC1 heads for $7500. All depends on what you want and your goals. As far as the radical cam your right there's not one out there and the heads don't allow for it buy because of that reason the springs we have weren't made much lift past stock. I'm not saying because these are Mercedes heads they cost way more but to get a good job done by a person that knows what he's doing and knows how to make them work right it's not cheap. I have a good relationship with my porter and know I wasn't ripped off at all and for the work he has done its a steal. I do believe you get what you pay for and everyone knows I'm not one for the Mercedes tax EVER. I have a place working on some custom cams for me now for the new build that's waiting on final specs on engine size,compression,boost,head flow to decide on specs and they will be cheaper than any cams available for these engines. I hate paying extra because it happens to be for a Mercedes.
I hope you get out there and break some more records
06-08-2012, 09:21 AM
#30
MBWorld Fanatic!
A very good porter in the UK does all his primary work with a detail head scan and a computer aided model of flow and subsequent alterations in inlet/outlet profile are modelled and optimised - they sometimes add material too. Once the comp model is optimised the head is CNC 'd to that model. If you like the ports can be taped too which give them a polished / flawless finish ..,.
Best thing about this approach is that once a head has been scanned and optimised the same head can be done again as a plug and play... They claim 18% more flow and I was looking at having it done but at $3250 it's a big ask .... And have not jumped ...
Best thing about this approach is that once a head has been scanned and optimised the same head can be done again as a plug and play... They claim 18% more flow and I was looking at having it done but at $3250 it's a big ask .... And have not jumped ...
06-08-2012, 10:03 AM
#31
Out Of Control!!
A very good porter in the UK does all his primary work with a detail head scan and a computer aided model of flow and subsequent alterations in inlet/outlet profile are modelled and optimised - they sometimes add material too. Once the comp model is optimised the head is CNC 'd to that model. If you like the ports can be taped too which give them a polished / flawless finish ..,.
Best thing about this approach is that once a head has been scanned and optimised the same head can be done again as a plug and play... They claim 18% more flow and I was looking at having it done but at $3250 it's a big ask .... And have not jumped ...
Best thing about this approach is that once a head has been scanned and optimised the same head can be done again as a plug and play... They claim 18% more flow and I was looking at having it done but at $3250 it's a big ask .... And have not jumped ...
06-08-2012, 11:45 AM
#33
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Northern Va
Posts: 2,156
Likes: 0
Received 6 Likes
on
3 Posts
Dirt Scooters
A very good porter in the UK does all his primary work with a detail head scan and a computer aided model of flow and subsequent alterations in inlet/outlet profile are modelled and optimised - they sometimes add material too. Once the comp model is optimised the head is CNC 'd to that model. If you like the ports can be taped too which give them a polished / flawless finish ..,.
Best thing about this approach is that once a head has been scanned and optimised the same head can be done again as a plug and play... They claim 18% more flow and I was looking at having it done but at $3250 it's a big ask .... And have not jumped ...
Best thing about this approach is that once a head has been scanned and optimised the same head can be done again as a plug and play... They claim 18% more flow and I was looking at having it done but at $3250 it's a big ask .... And have not jumped ...
