e55amgrocket

ok that makes more sense. I thought you were talking about 13.1AFR. Might make good torque but not for too long that high all the time.

GT-ER

On race gas I'd go that high, but never on pump. Mid to low 12's is as high as I dare go and mid to high 11's up on top.

DVC

What do you gain in power from mid 11s? You've only blown up one motor, right?

GT-ER

I gain torque. I blew a motor once, but it wasn't by going lean ( Peak torque on that engine was near redline so that engine never saw more than 11's. It was a VQ35DE and they are known to blow at the 400whp level, which is where I was.

e55amgrocket

I've always been one to go with the somewhat safe route. That's why i decided to tune with Q16 where they actually want you to run the AFR around 12 high 11's but it gives you a lot more room to be off a little with 120+ Octane. We actually found more power running 10.7-10.9 thru the entire pull. Most likely due to the oxygen in the fuel.

DVC

How much TQ on an E55 do you gain? You said it worked great. What's that mean?

Thanks

GT-ER

My E55 isn't tuned this way since I can't tune my own E55...unfortunately. I said it works great based on every other car I've tuned. My car runs somewhat on the rich side but tuning it to my precise taste would require endless hours on Jerry's behalf so I'm happy with what I have which is pretty good as it is.

Toadster

wish I would have measured AFR on my 2nd dyno day to show #'s

GT-ER

To all: install widebands on your car. They are cheap and can show you your a/f ratio which may be different on the street vs. the dyno. I know in my car it's different.

xpl0sive

^^very good advice. I would also add to anyone running any mods to get a dyno tune...

here's a shot of the box tune that EC put on my car.



as you can see my AFR's were pretty much 12.9-13 across the board. my tuner saw this and shut the car down twice at 2500 rpm. While I was on the phone with Adam and Jerry, I explained this to them and sent pics. They told me to "just run the car it should be fine". We tried it a third time and went to 4000, and it wasn't getting better. My tuner strongly advised against pushing it all the way and I actually had to argue with Jerry to richen up the tune.
After about 10 runs on the dyno, here's where we ended up


wasn't perfect and my tuner said they could have gotten it way better. Jerry told me to just drive the car and come back another day. He said to let the car adapt. It was my understanding that our ECU does not adapt in open-loop. So it sounded to me like Jerry was just tired of tuning and wanted to go home... nice for him I guess.
But anyways, long story short, I'm very lucky I didn't blow my motor with the "box" tune they put on my car. I'm guessing the looped rail and 550cc injectors saved me

PACougar

That's very strange. I spent an entire day with him while he was tuning a bunch of cars and he literally wouldn't pull a car off the dyno until it was tuned correctly. By correctly I mean 11-11.5 on the dyno across the board. How long ago was that tune from? I only ask because perhaps he's changed the way he tunes the cars.

xpl0sive

tune was done in July.

PACougar

Go figure Well maybe it was an off day. I hope you were able to get it dialed in and down to the 11's

Toadster

[QUOTE=xpl0sive;5370515] as you can see my AFR's were pretty much 12.9-13 across the board. my tuner saw this and shut the car down twice at 2500 rpm. While I was on the phone with Adam and Jerry, I explained this to them and sent pics. They told me to "just run the car it should be fine". We tried it a third time and went to 4000, and it wasn't getting better. My tuner strongly advised against pushing it all the way and I actually had to argue with Jerry to richen up the tune.
After about 10 runs on the dyno, here's where we ended up


how did the powerband react to the richer mix?

Koru_Kinshi

Maybe I should go to OE tuning after all for my tune if I get an SC pulley.

sales@eurocharged.com

Wow, I seem to remember things went much differently.

First and foremost.... If this guy is your "tuner", then why isn't he tuning the car?

Second, you never paid for a dyno tune. We agreed to help out and I had 4 other dyno tunes going at the same time.

Third, you never argued with me on anything. I can post your emails with your permission if you like.

Finally, we have always recommened that anyone changing injectors should get a dyno tune. All of these injectors floating around are all very different. We get requests every day for 550cc, etc injector flashes and customers expect them to be perfect out of the box...even though we were never provided any data on the injectors. There are many members here that have purchased "550cc" injectors and have received either smaller or larger injectors from their supplier. The fact is, unless each set of injectors is tested and a flow chart is provided for the set, you can't be certain what you are getting.

I'm sorry you feel that a service wasn't provided to you. However, in the end you got a great dyno tune that is safe and reliable....for a fraction of what any other tuning company would have charged you. I don't have any emails from you after the dyno day expressing your concerns or thoughts....only misconstrued information in this thread.

We bend over backwards as much as we can for every customer and will not stop until we are happy with the tune. I would not have stopped tuning the car if I saw something that I didn't like.

Please feel free to email me if there is something about the tune you don't like or that you're unhappy with.

sales@eurocharged.com

Mike - don't get caught up in the hp/tq numbers. If you were dynoing the car on the same day, same conditions, then it would be different. I can;t stress that enough.

Let's get the cooling portion figured out and see how the dyno looks after that. Once the AFR gets lined out and the car is behaving normally, then I bet the power will follow.

Email or call me if you have any other questions....we are here for you!

GT-ER

Just this comment shows you don't know what you are talking about. A lean car is a lean car, regardless if it has 10,000cc injectors and 15 fuel pumps...it'll blow just the same because it's lean.

With that said, I have to agree with Jerry that if you tuner knows so much then why not have him tune it?

I see a lot of complaining from a lot of people here but most of the people I see complaining really have no clue what they are looking at and what to do about it. Most don't have any datalogging devices nor do they have a simple $170 wideband....it's CRAZY to have a 500+whp car without a freaking wideband at the very least. I'm generalizing here, but it's strangely the reality in this forum.

Forget what the car does on the dyno, do you know what it does on the street when the load the engine sees is MUCH greater than it is on the dyno? If your A/F ratio was so dangerously lean, why didn't you bust a piston? I'm not saying it wasn't lean, but perhaps there is more to the equation than you know.

I needed adjustments done to my car in MANNNYYYY occasions due to mods I've done and Jerry has always come through. I have a wideband and a datalogger....I tell Jerry what I need and he sends me files which I upload with my Uploader. After a few tries, everything is good. Simple.

xpl0sive

i shouldn't have referred to the shop guy as my "tuner", he is just the dyno operator who claims to know about tuning. I'm just going from what I saw. I was at the shop at 8am strapped the car on, started tuning around 9. I didn't leave the shop till 3pm after about 10 or 11 dyno runs.

Jerry, I never actually spoke to you directly. I only spoke to Adam. After the initial two runs, the "dyno operator" saw that the A/F ratios were going very lean and shut the run down. I reported this to Adam. Adam said "just run it all the way, it should be OK". now by looking at the first dyno graph, would anyone in their right mind run the car all the way to red line when A/F ratios are hitting 12.9 at some points? I highly doubt it.

So I had to convince Adam to get Jerry to richen up the tune. After that hour of dyno time wasted, we went on to do run after run and ended up with the last graph. It was far from perfect according to the "tuner/dyno operator". I myself have never tuned a car and rely on the "experts" in this field to do it for me.

Anyway, the car is now sold and the tune seems to be safe. Idle is still pretty rough and the car still hesitates from launch. I don't know if it's hard to tune 550CC injectors or if that's just the way it is.
Now i don't know how I didn't blow the engine running that original "box" tune. You're saying
"If your A/F ratio was so dangerously lean, why didn't you bust a piston? I'm not saying it wasn't lean, but perhaps there is more to the equation than you know."
Did you not see the first graph? Is 12.9 A/F not dangerous enough for you? I'm just thankful my engine didn't blow up while I was driving around with that tune.

Anyways the whole point of my original post was that EVERYONE who changes anything to do with tuning/fueling on their car should have an A/F gauge and get a proper dyno tune done

johnnyblaze

My face when I hear about people still using "box" tunes.



Pay the extra money and get dyno'd... all cars are different

Toadster

is it possible that the O2 bung was going bad on the dyno?

xpl0sive

two O2 bungs were used. we changed it after the first two runs because the "dyno operator" did not believe that the motor didn't blow up at 12.9 A/F. So he installed a brand new O2 sensor out of the box and it read the exact same

xpl0sive

box tune was pretty much for me to be able to use my car while I waited until the dyno was available. as soon as I was able to get scheduled, i went for the dyno tune

Toadster

yup, you nailed it -put the car into as 'safe as tune as possible' prior to the dyno tune...

note that Jerry did have a box tune on one car from SF Dyno Day, and even after a few dyno runs, it wasn't modified because the box tune was already dialed in.

xpl0sive

except this "safe tune as possible" ended up being a 12.9 A/F tune...