AKnight55

So, I just got my Kleemann headers and Im wondering If I should go ahead and have them ceramic coated before I install them? Im pretty aware of the pros, but have not heard of anything that should keep me from doing this.. So do you guys recommend to do it, or would it just be a waste of money?

Thanks

vietjdmboi

Swaintech hands down the best coating in the business.

AKnight55

Ive heard very good things about Swaintech. However, im not really looking to send them out if I can just do it locally.

My buddy referred me to a place close to me that uses Cermakrome.. Ive never heard of them though

400RWHP

For what its worth AK, I have Jetcoat on my Renntech headers and the underhood temps are much, much lower with the coating.

Regards

slownrusty

I ceramic coated my Kleemanns (done by Jet Hot) and recommend it.

Toadster

this stuff?

http://swaintech.com/race-coatings/r...aust-coatings/

vietjdmboi

Yup that's stuff. A friend of mine has it on his Evo and after a pull I was able to touch the manifold swiftly without burning my finger just to give you an idea of how well their coating works.

CCPcoatings

Its certainly beneficial to coat your headers as it will reduce under-hood heat, speed cool down and likely make a few more HP. It's also easier to do them now rather than have to take them off at a later date to coat them.

Regardless of where you send them to be coated, don't get talked into a traditional "Bright Ceramic". Although many like it for its "Bling" it is NOT rated for SC or turbo temps. In most all applications like yours it will dull rather quickly, worse case it actually delaminates and fails completely.

For your application you want a "High Temp Ceramic" which is typically rated at 1700F - 2000F+ and comes in many colors BUT Bright. All bright ceramics are rated at 1100F - 1300F metal temp which translates to about 1300F - 1700F EGT.

Below is a sample of a similar situation where it runs to lean / hot. Many SC apps actually run a little fat which is equally bad for non-high heat ceramics.

Sir-Boost-a-Lot

iTrader: (1)

You're mistaken on that. The headers you pictured are garbage can mild steel thin wall headers. They will radiate signifigantly more heat than a thicker stainless counterpart due to obviously the thickness and the properties of the metal itself so be more likely to turn the coating white.

Coating the stainless headers on these cars won't reduce underhood temps as much as they would on a car that ran cheap ms headers, but it definitely won't hurt. There's no downside except the $200 or whatever they're charging you so why not.

The Swaintech stuff is another story. That will signifigantly reduce your temps, it's just hideous to look at.

CCPcoatings

What exactly am I "mistaken" about?

AMG E Power

I've had mine for almost a year in hot a$$ south FL with no coating and no problems !

moosejaw

Ive had mine Jettcoatd flat black with two years with no problems
I use to have the wrap but took it off when i coated it flat black.
Wont hurt to try it, my jettcoat is rated up to 2000*.

dchl21

waste imho.

Sir-Boost-a-Lot

iTrader: (1)

I thought I was clear... You said because his car is supercharged not to use the cermachrome s--t because it'll flake off from the heat. You were mistaken when you typed that out.

CCPcoatings

Not at all, hence the request for clarification. More importantly, I disagree with most of what you said so I needed starting point.

To be clear, YES I am saying it is INAPPROPRIATE to coat ANY headers destined for a Super-Charged or hot-side turbo application which are constructed from ANY substrate i.e. mild steel, SS, TI, Inconel, etc. with ANY form / mfgr of BRIGHT CERAMIC. Further, any tuning situation that causes either a “too lean” or “too fat” condition is equally detrimental to Bright / Polished Ceramic Coating. Is that clear enough for you?

Any header manufacture that uses this coating as well as any manufacture that produces this material will tell you the SAME THING…… I’ve sampled pretty much every available bright ceramic over the last 15 years and unless you have access to some Kryptonite-Hybrid Bright Ceramic Coating I’m unfamiliar with, all of them have a metal temp range of 1000F – 1300F. Keep in mind this is metal temp, NOT EGT. Therefore, the exhaust temps even in a moderately powered SC or turbo application will exceed this quite easily. This is based on an unrestricted race application. In a street system with CAT’s and mufflers the temp can escalate much higher and much faster. Once the Bright Ceramic reaches its metal temp number the pipes will dull in unison with the exposed temps. Once overheated the pores of the oxidized aluminum outer layer will open which causes the pinhole rust spots seen so often (see below). Taken to further extremes like the SS turbo header on the dyno below, they will end up in a failure state which ranges from white / grey to green and is likely accompanied with flaking and peeling as it is now become sacrificial.

As for your metallurgical analysis of mild steel (MS) and SS I’m only partially following. Without getting into all the specific alloys of both MS and SS, we can safely say that if you had two identical tubes, one of MS and the other SS of say 2.00 x .080 that the SS would “INITIALLY” have a cooler skin temp. The difference being that, uncoated MS will dissipate the heat faster than the SS, BUT, the uncoated SS headers will heat soak and get MUCH hotter and STAY hotter longer which causes problems for surrounding components and maintenance. So there is good reason to coat BOTH…..

The other problem with your “garbage can header” scenario as you so eloquently described them is that you’re making the assumption that SS headers are made of thicker material than a comparable mild steel header. In most instances this is NOT the case. Many manufacturers of SS headers actually downsize their SS wall thickness because of the increased strength of the SS over MS. Most commercially manufactured headers we’ve seen range in the 12ga - 18ga range. This ramps up exponentially when you’re dealing with custom turbo configurations based on HP and whether or not the system is structural. So now if you’re comparing a set of 11ga “garbage can headers” to a set of 14ga SS headers the MS version may actually run cooler. Your theory that a SS header, coated in bright ceramic will survive because it’s cooler than a MS just isn’t true. Both will eventually see the same temps and in MOST cases the SS will be MUCH hotter. If those temps are outside of its functional range it will FAIL. PERIOD!!! Conversely, if you’re aware of any applications with bright ceramic that are holding up, I.e., remain relatively polished, they are doing so ONLY because they are not exceeding their operating temperature. This can occur in situations with low boost and maximum airflow on the coated components. I wish this wasn’t the case because there are MANY people that like the look of the polished Ceramic but are not able to use it because of its temperature limitations. A Bright Polished Ceramic that survived 2000F temps like the High Temp Ceramics would be a gift from God……

In conclusion, the one thing I AM certain of is the environment in which bright ceramic coating will live or die. I can count on less than one hand the number of SC or turbo applications that will survive with Bright Ceramic Metallic Coating. The ones that do survive limited use involve open air turbo bikes or limited use race cars / bikes with limited run time and or lower than normal EGT’s resulting from alcohol based fuels. If ANY exhaust component is seeing red-hot temps steer clear of it. Use a High Temp Ceramic with higher temperature thresholds and you won’t have anything to worry about……

NON "Garbage Can" Fabtech 304 SS from a NA Ferarri F430 - The SS appears to be getting a little hot


Thick Gauge SS headers on a Turbo Diesel Pickup


Class 8 Turbo Diesel


Mild 4-Cyl Street Turbo

CCPcoatings

LOL, ambient temperature and or ECT has no effect on the survival of your coated or uncoated exhaust, unless of coarse your ambient temperature exceeds 1000F in which case I think you may have bigger problems. EGT is the primary concern for your exhaust.

Sir-Boost-a-Lot

iTrader: (1)

That was a lot of typing ,but you're still mistaken. You can coat stainless headers for a street car like the OP asked about with the polished coating and it will live. The coating won't be as pretty as the day you installed them as time goes on, but the same thing applies to NA headers as well. Some wenol puts a little sparke back into their day though. Unless the engine has a problem and gets run excessively lean, the coating peeling off is an application error.

CCPcoatings

Good luck with that, lol...... I'm sure your local coater will love the repeat business. You're probably right though. I've only been working with these Ceramic Metallic Thermal Barrier Coatings and others for 15+ years. I'm sure its an oversight on my part.

Like I said earlier, everything is dependent on EGT's via boost, fuel / timing, exhaust back pressure, etc..... In the end most all SC applications have too much heat and back pressure to stay shiny or survive. If not, you're not making enough boost to warrant bothering with a supercharger in the first place.....

As for your "Wenol" theory, lets assume for the moment that your application will only darken "slightly" the polished ceramic, which for your information is the result of the aluminum oxidizing from the exhaust temps. whats the point of choosing a polished Ceramic if they wont remain polished? How many people do you know that are going to remove their headers every few months just to polish them? You obviously have too much time on your hands.

The bigger problem with your "Wenol" theory is that the aluminum skin on this coating is only a mil or two thick. Once it oxidizes or burns to a certain point you can NOT polish it back its original state. The shine is good for ever.

Keep in mind, you can certainly run bright headers in a temp range that merely dulls them out but doesn't necessarily end in failure. But again, why go through all the trouble to end up with a Dirty / Dingy looking pair of headers? Why not just do them in a High Temp black or silver from the start and save yourself 1000's on labor and "Wenol", lol.......

Sir-Boost-a-Lot

iTrader: (1)

It's not a theory, wenol or mothers billet will bring back the shine some if it dulls. As long as the guy who sprayed it layed the coating on evenly and didnt leave dry coarse spots. Even then, you can smooth it out like paint with some 1200 wet paper and then hit it with the metal polish. And you definitely would have to have a lot of spare time to pull headers for repolish. Get to what you can see, and take a microfiber with polish on it , wrap it around the tube and pull it back and forth. It works, even if you say it won't.

e55amgrocket

If your going to spend money on a coating get swaintech. I bought a stainless manifold for my cummins that was coated and it was crazy how cool it would be after watching the EGT gauge pegged at 2000 degrees for 10 seconds then driving back to the pits and being able to touch the manifold a few minutes later. It was coated inside and out.

CCPcoatings

I stand corrected, you obviously have it all figured out. With you're mastery of time , space and temperature, you should have no problem revitalizing a 2 mil aluminum skin where it no longer exists.

FYI, those $1000.00, dulled, "Garbage can headers" you loved so much had a 2000F interior coating in addition to its standard OD bright Ceramic Coating and they were dulled out "beyond polishing" as a result of a normally aspirated "lean start up" in about 10 minutes.......

Good luck with the polish thing though, lol....

CCPcoatings

If it was "plasma sprayed" i.e. white lighting, what would they use on the ID? The capability doesn't exist for plasma......

Sir-Boost-a-Lot

iTrader: (1)

That Swaintech coating is a really effective insulator, unlike all the other stuff which is mostly cosmetic in purpose. It's just ugly,that's why Jet Hot style is the most popular. It doesn't coat the insides and neither do any of the other coatings really. I know it sounds good to say that it does however.
I said you can polish the stuff that's dulled, not cooked off. You don't have to be an *** about it, I was trying to help you expand your knowledge.

And if somebody paid a grand for those trash can Pacesetter LS headers with that 3/8 flange or whichever those are, theyre at the more gullible end of the spectrum of awareness.

CCPcoatings

Although I appreciate your efforts to expand my knowledge, I'm fully aware of how to polish ceramic coatings and what can be used to do so. I have about $60K in equipment for the sole purpose of doing just that.

My point, which seemingly doesn't apply to your application is that if the headers dull beyond a certain threshold of temperature and or cycles, you will no longer be able to POLISH them.....

As for the headers, I have never seen a set of big tube BBC Hookers go for much less than that, but perhaps they've come down.

Sir-Boost-a-Lot

iTrader: (1)

You're not fully aware evidently because you were giving me a hard time about it in your earlier post. The vibratory tumblers you're mentioning will do a fine job of repolishing the coating if you care to remove them from the car, or as I'm sure you're aware, if you don't mind getting your micro-brite full of soot. I'm also sure you're aware if you use Di water or set up a reverse osmosis purification station on the water supply, you'll get even shinier results.

But the fact of the matter is, that the shine can restored to dulled coating on the stainless headers on the street driven E55 like what andrew originally asked about, be it off the car in the tumbler, or on the car with hand polish. Again,that is unless an out of whack tune cooked it which happens all the time on both blown and NA engines.

BTW I'm just busting your ***** because I'm bored on a 4 hour car ride to Miami Beach welcome to the forum