Ranking mods that reduce IAT's the best
10-04-2016, 12:04 PM
#28
I like it as an option and glad you mentioned it. If I do it I am thinking on starting with a 25 or 50 shot that will cool things off and give some power. Folks say that Jerry (assuming Shardul) will tune for NOS.
Some guys are telling me because the car is s/c that the Nitro effect is 2x. So, if I do a 50 shot will it effectively be 100 HP????
The NOS topic is interesting as some guys say "it is for ricers" or think it is a cop-out for cheap horsepower. I used to think this but the game has changed where we are now competing against 10 speed dual clutch automatics (the new ZL1) and AWD turbos that get crazy fast with a tune.
Like a guy said recently "run what you bring". I guess I would rather run a 11.0 @ 122 on NOS than a slow time any day but just not blow the engine.
Ruth, why don't you do Nitro on your car instead of selling it?
TK
Some guys are telling me because the car is s/c that the Nitro effect is 2x. So, if I do a 50 shot will it effectively be 100 HP????
The NOS topic is interesting as some guys say "it is for ricers" or think it is a cop-out for cheap horsepower. I used to think this but the game has changed where we are now competing against 10 speed dual clutch automatics (the new ZL1) and AWD turbos that get crazy fast with a tune.
Like a guy said recently "run what you bring". I guess I would rather run a 11.0 @ 122 on NOS than a slow time any day but just not blow the engine.
Ruth, why don't you do Nitro on your car instead of selling it?
TK
10-04-2016, 07:44 PM
#29
MBWorld Fanatic!
Centerline (who has one of the faster 113K's) suggested an "always on" I/C pump set-up in this thread. Makes sense to me but no one seems to talk about this. Does anyone know anything about this?
PS, I am heading down the meth injection path this will just be some "icing on the cake".
PS, I am heading down the meth injection path this will just be some "icing on the cake".
The following users liked this post:
BlackHammer (10-04-2016)
10-04-2016, 09:18 PM
#30
I am LUCKY enough to have went with the engine bay tank.
HINT to all; do it right and do a trunk tank the first time. No one will ever see it. Only downside is no spare tire but in my 20+ years of driving never had a flat or had to change a tire so likely a risk to take if you don't go on long remote driving excursions...
10-05-2016, 10:19 AM
#33
Seems like a lot of you are worrying about an issue, that you don't even know effects your car/driving style. Some of you are really trying to pinch every bit, and wasting what seems like thousands to not really have much of a faster car.
10-05-2016, 11:37 AM
#34
I have made countless mistakes. Done making mistakes...TK
10-05-2016, 05:05 PM
#35
I'm sorry, but if youre still having that much of an IAT problem on like 14ish psi something is wrong with the setup.
If anyone notices, all of the fast passes are made at tracks that have dramatic negative DA. You can't recreate these things unless you have the same temp/DA at the track.
I'm not calling anyone out specifically. But I see 143F at the end of a 3rd gear pull, which is around 133ish mph. All i'm using is a heat exchanger. People are pulling their hair out for maybe an extra 20-25whp.
If anyone notices, all of the fast passes are made at tracks that have dramatic negative DA. You can't recreate these things unless you have the same temp/DA at the track.
I'm not calling anyone out specifically. But I see 143F at the end of a 3rd gear pull, which is around 133ish mph. All i'm using is a heat exchanger. People are pulling their hair out for maybe an extra 20-25whp.
10-05-2016, 05:37 PM
#36
MBWorld Fanatic!
What I would add is that the LSA people are consistently chasing the holy grail as well. They install MASSIVE heat exchangers, front mount tanks, and huge piping to reduce losses and simply move the fluid properly, which is part of the issue. A fast running stream is cooler than a slow pond.
The issue I have is where. Where is this front mount exchange going to go where it will not affect the other radiators. Additionally, I plan on running another exchanger elsewhere but bolstered by fans.
That and meth should about do it.
The issue I have is where. Where is this front mount exchange going to go where it will not affect the other radiators. Additionally, I plan on running another exchanger elsewhere but bolstered by fans.
That and meth should about do it.
10-05-2016, 05:56 PM
#37
Super Member
10-05-2016, 09:03 PM
#38
LSA guys are hardly making it a big deal. CTSV's have other tricks. An e55 will never compare. Smaller blower, smaller engine. Same weight. Not to mention 1 out of the 2 people who actually tune these things refuses to keep up with the times to learn how to tune them for ethanol.
10-05-2016, 09:05 PM
#39
I've also been told that my EC cable/software (by hulk) doesn't log my timing fast enough. Even if I'm only logging 1 parameter. Lol.
Trust me. If the car was pulling back that much timing, You'd see it. Even if your refresh rate is a second. I pull about a degree or so of timing. It's not that much.
Trust me. If the car was pulling back that much timing, You'd see it. Even if your refresh rate is a second. I pull about a degree or so of timing. It's not that much.
10-05-2016, 10:01 PM
#40
Member
I have a question:
We are all looking at IAT; what about the knock sensors? What if cooler IAT's are resulting in less knock and more timing?
I have no experience tuning this platform. I have experience tuning other platforms, forced as well as normal induction. in those applications I have seen knock as more aggressive in limiting horsepower than IAT.
Hot air, less O2. Less O2, less fuel. I keep seeing people saying that the ECU dumps fuel in the higher RPM's when it gets hot. This is usually to stop detonation from what I have seen on other platforms.
Retarding timing also makes the program rich. If the heat is high enough the ECU will pull timing (true of a normally aspirated engine as well) to reduce detonation.
Is there any info on knock sensor voltages? Can we log them in OBD2? I will look at Torque and see if they pop up.
Fuel trims would be useless for this because we are at open loop at this point (I think) and should not affect that part of the ECU operation.
Reason I am asking is the results that RedBullJunky shared in multiple meth threads. He installed the nozzle after the IAT sensor and still had very good results, at least according to him (not discounting his experience, have not seen anyone else with any data on that position where it worked for them).
Another is Denroll. He has the nozzle in the Y below the IAT sensor. The charge will get seen by the IAT but his results are very comparable to Bramages results and he is injecting in the more accepted position, at the end of the inter-cooler.
If knock is really the issue then this location (surge tanks) would make the most sense. What I really need (and don't expect to get it) is the understanding of which has the priority, IAT or knock. I am sure they are close but if Knock has the greater effect then moving the nozzle to the surge tanks makes sense.
A look at the scalars used on the IAT tables vs the Knock tables would tell us the real impact. We just need to see them and I don't know how without software capable of plotting the data points on a graph.
Reason I ask is because I am getting my Meth kit tomorrow. I got a Snow Performance Stage 1 kit and would like to put the nozzle in the best possible position. I will need a solenoid so it will not go in immediately so time is on my side.
One big reason not to go into the surge tanks is a safe one; if the solenoid and check valve fail I run the risk of hydrolocking the engine.
From the experience I have seen from others who pioneered this mod for our platform, the inter-cooler area can hold most of the washer tank without it going into the heads through the surge tanks.
Thanks for reading,
Sean
We are all looking at IAT; what about the knock sensors? What if cooler IAT's are resulting in less knock and more timing?
I have no experience tuning this platform. I have experience tuning other platforms, forced as well as normal induction. in those applications I have seen knock as more aggressive in limiting horsepower than IAT.
Hot air, less O2. Less O2, less fuel. I keep seeing people saying that the ECU dumps fuel in the higher RPM's when it gets hot. This is usually to stop detonation from what I have seen on other platforms.
Retarding timing also makes the program rich. If the heat is high enough the ECU will pull timing (true of a normally aspirated engine as well) to reduce detonation.
Is there any info on knock sensor voltages? Can we log them in OBD2? I will look at Torque and see if they pop up.
Fuel trims would be useless for this because we are at open loop at this point (I think) and should not affect that part of the ECU operation.
Reason I am asking is the results that RedBullJunky shared in multiple meth threads. He installed the nozzle after the IAT sensor and still had very good results, at least according to him (not discounting his experience, have not seen anyone else with any data on that position where it worked for them).
Another is Denroll. He has the nozzle in the Y below the IAT sensor. The charge will get seen by the IAT but his results are very comparable to Bramages results and he is injecting in the more accepted position, at the end of the inter-cooler.
If knock is really the issue then this location (surge tanks) would make the most sense. What I really need (and don't expect to get it) is the understanding of which has the priority, IAT or knock. I am sure they are close but if Knock has the greater effect then moving the nozzle to the surge tanks makes sense.
A look at the scalars used on the IAT tables vs the Knock tables would tell us the real impact. We just need to see them and I don't know how without software capable of plotting the data points on a graph.
Reason I ask is because I am getting my Meth kit tomorrow. I got a Snow Performance Stage 1 kit and would like to put the nozzle in the best possible position. I will need a solenoid so it will not go in immediately so time is on my side.
One big reason not to go into the surge tanks is a safe one; if the solenoid and check valve fail I run the risk of hydrolocking the engine.
From the experience I have seen from others who pioneered this mod for our platform, the inter-cooler area can hold most of the washer tank without it going into the heads through the surge tanks.
Thanks for reading,
Sean
10-05-2016, 10:06 PM
#41
MBWorld Fanatic!
My 10 second pass was done in -300 I wouldn't call that dramatic. I know that you may have been referring to other passes but not every E55 needs "dramatic" negative DA.
10-05-2016, 10:18 PM
#42
MBWorld Fanatic!
10-05-2016, 10:51 PM
#43
Sean,
Just quoting a sub-set of your post so folks know what to reference. Thanks for the post. You will find very few people take the time to read or respond to long posts (it is documented) due to ADD or they just can't comprehend "deep thinking".
For those who don't know Sean despite the fact he is new to this Forum he has a TON of knowledge (like the Sr. guys on this Forum - we know who you are).
At any rate, I was planning on reaching out to see what you were thinking on cooling. Seems I have my answer. I will PM you on a few other topics.
TK
Just quoting a sub-set of your post so folks know what to reference. Thanks for the post. You will find very few people take the time to read or respond to long posts (it is documented) due to ADD or they just can't comprehend "deep thinking".
For those who don't know Sean despite the fact he is new to this Forum he has a TON of knowledge (like the Sr. guys on this Forum - we know who you are).
At any rate, I was planning on reaching out to see what you were thinking on cooling. Seems I have my answer. I will PM you on a few other topics.
TK
10-05-2016, 11:44 PM
#44
Junior Member
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 43
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
2006 Mercedes Benz E55 AMG
I have a question:
We are all looking at IAT; what about the knock sensors? What if cooler IAT's are resulting in less knock and more timing?
I have no experience tuning this platform. I have experience tuning other platforms, forced as well as normal induction. in those applications I have seen knock as more aggressive in limiting horsepower than IAT.
Hot air, less O2. Less O2, less fuel. I keep seeing people saying that the ECU dumps fuel in the higher RPM's when it gets hot. This is usually to stop detonation from what I have seen on other platforms.
Retarding timing also makes the program rich. If the heat is high enough the ECU will pull timing (true of a normally aspirated engine as well) to reduce detonation.
Is there any info on knock sensor voltages? Can we log them in OBD2? I will look at Torque and see if they pop up.
Fuel trims would be useless for this because we are at open loop at this point (I think) and should not affect that part of the ECU operation.
Reason I am asking is the results that RedBullJunky shared in multiple meth threads. He installed the nozzle after the IAT sensor and still had very good results, at least according to him (not discounting his experience, have not seen anyone else with any data on that position where it worked for them).
Another is Denroll. He has the nozzle in the Y below the IAT sensor. The charge will get seen by the IAT but his results are very comparable to Bramages results and he is injecting in the more accepted position, at the end of the inter-cooler.
If knock is really the issue then this location (surge tanks) would make the most sense. What I really need (and don't expect to get it) is the understanding of which has the priority, IAT or knock. I am sure they are close but if Knock has the greater effect then moving the nozzle to the surge tanks makes sense.
A look at the scalars used on the IAT tables vs the Knock tables would tell us the real impact. We just need to see them and I don't know how without software capable of plotting the data points on a graph.
Reason I ask is because I am getting my Meth kit tomorrow. I got a Snow Performance Stage 1 kit and would like to put the nozzle in the best possible position. I will need a solenoid so it will not go in immediately so time is on my side.
One big reason not to go into the surge tanks is a safe one; if the solenoid and check valve fail I run the risk of hydrolocking the engine.
From the experience I have seen from others who pioneered this mod for our platform, the inter-cooler area can hold most of the washer tank without it going into the heads through the surge tanks.
Thanks for reading,
Sean
We are all looking at IAT; what about the knock sensors? What if cooler IAT's are resulting in less knock and more timing?
I have no experience tuning this platform. I have experience tuning other platforms, forced as well as normal induction. in those applications I have seen knock as more aggressive in limiting horsepower than IAT.
Hot air, less O2. Less O2, less fuel. I keep seeing people saying that the ECU dumps fuel in the higher RPM's when it gets hot. This is usually to stop detonation from what I have seen on other platforms.
Retarding timing also makes the program rich. If the heat is high enough the ECU will pull timing (true of a normally aspirated engine as well) to reduce detonation.
Is there any info on knock sensor voltages? Can we log them in OBD2? I will look at Torque and see if they pop up.
Fuel trims would be useless for this because we are at open loop at this point (I think) and should not affect that part of the ECU operation.
Reason I am asking is the results that RedBullJunky shared in multiple meth threads. He installed the nozzle after the IAT sensor and still had very good results, at least according to him (not discounting his experience, have not seen anyone else with any data on that position where it worked for them).
Another is Denroll. He has the nozzle in the Y below the IAT sensor. The charge will get seen by the IAT but his results are very comparable to Bramages results and he is injecting in the more accepted position, at the end of the inter-cooler.
If knock is really the issue then this location (surge tanks) would make the most sense. What I really need (and don't expect to get it) is the understanding of which has the priority, IAT or knock. I am sure they are close but if Knock has the greater effect then moving the nozzle to the surge tanks makes sense.
A look at the scalars used on the IAT tables vs the Knock tables would tell us the real impact. We just need to see them and I don't know how without software capable of plotting the data points on a graph.
Reason I ask is because I am getting my Meth kit tomorrow. I got a Snow Performance Stage 1 kit and would like to put the nozzle in the best possible position. I will need a solenoid so it will not go in immediately so time is on my side.
One big reason not to go into the surge tanks is a safe one; if the solenoid and check valve fail I run the risk of hydrolocking the engine.
From the experience I have seen from others who pioneered this mod for our platform, the inter-cooler area can hold most of the washer tank without it going into the heads through the surge tanks.
Thanks for reading,
Sean
10-06-2016, 12:58 AM
#45
MBWorld Fanatic!
LSA guys are hardly making it a big deal. CTSV's have other tricks. An e55 will never compare. Smaller blower, smaller engine. Same weight. Not to mention 1 out of the 2 people who actually tune these things refuses to keep up with the times to learn how to tune them for ethanol.
Some thought leaders here have really poopooed on e85 in their limited experience and that could be seen as hindering Dev.
10-06-2016, 02:54 AM
#46
Super Member
.......
I have a question: I have responses
We are all looking at IAT; what about the knock sensors? What if cooler IAT's are resulting in less knock and more timing? Agreed. As I stated earlier that fuel dumping to cool cylinders also stops pre-ignition knock timing from being pulled.
I have no experience tuning this platform. I have experience tuning other platforms, forced as well as normal induction. in those applications I have seen knock as more aggressive in limiting horsepower than IAT. I haven't seen many platforms out there that's supercharged (more heat than turbos) and producing near 500 hp from the factory other than the CTS-V's? Wouldn't it be safe to assume factory Mercedes safety protocol to be a little sensitive considering the engine costs $30K+? Factory set-ups stay 60+ degrees above ambient while cruising moderate speeds. Timing starts pulling at 95 degrees IATs. What platforms do you know that do that?
Hot air, less O2. Less O2, less fuel. I keep seeing people saying that the ECU dumps fuel in the higher RPM's when it gets hot. This is usually to stop detonation from what I have seen on other platforms. Welcome to the world of the M113k
Retarding timing also makes the program rich. (Retarding timing is suppose to make the AFR's rich. That's the purpose of retarding the timing?) If the heat is high enough the ECU will pull timing (true of a normally aspirated engine as well) to reduce detonation. (uh, that's the reasoning of these "IAT" threads. lol)
Is there any info on knock sensor voltages? Can we log them in OBD2? I will look at Torque and see if they pop up. (surprisingly enough, M156 N/A engines have a higher sensitivity to knock. Been there and done that. I have the t-shirt to prove it)
Fuel trims would be useless for this because we are at open loop at this point (I think) and should not affect that part of the ECU operation. (We are talking about triggers that effect timing. Knock sensor and IAT sensor.)
Reason I am asking is the results that RedBullJunky shared in multiple meth threads. He installed the nozzle after the IAT sensor and still had very good results, at least according to him (not discounting his experience, have not seen anyone else with any data on that position where it worked for them). (That is complete B.S on his part. The IAT sensor communicates to the ECU when to and not to pull timing. Nothing after the IAT sensor will help. Welcome to MBWorld, brother. The home of cold-aid drinkers)
Another is Denroll. He has the nozzle in the Y below the IAT sensor. The charge will get seen by the IAT but his results are very comparable to Bramages results and he is injecting in the more accepted position, at the end of the inter-cooler. ( These set-ups cool the IAT sensor and create false readings. Unless you move the IAT sensor.......these are our only options.)
If knock is really the issue then this location (surge tanks) would make the most sense. (Thank you. I've been saying that for a while now! Oh, wait.....are you talking about IAT sensor or meth/water nozzle? lol) What I really need (and don't expect to get it) is the understanding of which has the priority, IAT or knock. (More IAT than knock. Again, timing starts pulling at 95 degrees) Sure they are close but if Knock has the greater effect then moving the nozzle to the surge tanks makes sense. (Timing pulls during higher than allowed IATs. This alone stops the theory of a over zealous knock sensor (that's placed well after the IAT sensor)trumping the IAT sensor. Political pun, intended)
A look at the scalars used on the IAT tables vs the Knock tables would tell us the real impact. We just need to see them and I don't know how without software capable of plotting the data points on a graph. (Jesus is the key to our engine problems. Oh, wait...)
Reason I ask is because I am getting my Meth kit tomorrow. I got a Snow Performance Stage 1 kit and would like to put the nozzle in the best possible position. I will need a solenoid so it will not go in immediately so time is on my side. (Solenoids fail and sh*t goes bad quickly. Check valves is the key. Trust physics)
One big reason not to go into the surge tanks is a safe one; if the solenoid and check valve fail I run the risk of hydrolocking the engine. (Agreed. So don't put the meth/water nozzle there.)
From the experience I have seen from others who pioneered this mod for our platform, the inter-cooler area can hold most of the washer tank without it going into the heads through the surge tanks. (Incorrect)
Thanks for reading, (Thank you, for reading?)
Sean Anthony
We are all looking at IAT; what about the knock sensors? What if cooler IAT's are resulting in less knock and more timing? Agreed. As I stated earlier that fuel dumping to cool cylinders also stops pre-ignition knock timing from being pulled.
I have no experience tuning this platform. I have experience tuning other platforms, forced as well as normal induction. in those applications I have seen knock as more aggressive in limiting horsepower than IAT. I haven't seen many platforms out there that's supercharged (more heat than turbos) and producing near 500 hp from the factory other than the CTS-V's? Wouldn't it be safe to assume factory Mercedes safety protocol to be a little sensitive considering the engine costs $30K+? Factory set-ups stay 60+ degrees above ambient while cruising moderate speeds. Timing starts pulling at 95 degrees IATs. What platforms do you know that do that?
Hot air, less O2. Less O2, less fuel. I keep seeing people saying that the ECU dumps fuel in the higher RPM's when it gets hot. This is usually to stop detonation from what I have seen on other platforms. Welcome to the world of the M113k
Retarding timing also makes the program rich. (Retarding timing is suppose to make the AFR's rich. That's the purpose of retarding the timing?) If the heat is high enough the ECU will pull timing (true of a normally aspirated engine as well) to reduce detonation. (uh, that's the reasoning of these "IAT" threads. lol)
Is there any info on knock sensor voltages? Can we log them in OBD2? I will look at Torque and see if they pop up. (surprisingly enough, M156 N/A engines have a higher sensitivity to knock. Been there and done that. I have the t-shirt to prove it)
Fuel trims would be useless for this because we are at open loop at this point (I think) and should not affect that part of the ECU operation. (We are talking about triggers that effect timing. Knock sensor and IAT sensor.)
Reason I am asking is the results that RedBullJunky shared in multiple meth threads. He installed the nozzle after the IAT sensor and still had very good results, at least according to him (not discounting his experience, have not seen anyone else with any data on that position where it worked for them). (That is complete B.S on his part. The IAT sensor communicates to the ECU when to and not to pull timing. Nothing after the IAT sensor will help. Welcome to MBWorld, brother. The home of cold-aid drinkers)
Another is Denroll. He has the nozzle in the Y below the IAT sensor. The charge will get seen by the IAT but his results are very comparable to Bramages results and he is injecting in the more accepted position, at the end of the inter-cooler. ( These set-ups cool the IAT sensor and create false readings. Unless you move the IAT sensor.......these are our only options.)
If knock is really the issue then this location (surge tanks) would make the most sense. (Thank you. I've been saying that for a while now! Oh, wait.....are you talking about IAT sensor or meth/water nozzle? lol) What I really need (and don't expect to get it) is the understanding of which has the priority, IAT or knock. (More IAT than knock. Again, timing starts pulling at 95 degrees) Sure they are close but if Knock has the greater effect then moving the nozzle to the surge tanks makes sense. (Timing pulls during higher than allowed IATs. This alone stops the theory of a over zealous knock sensor (that's placed well after the IAT sensor)trumping the IAT sensor. Political pun, intended)
A look at the scalars used on the IAT tables vs the Knock tables would tell us the real impact. We just need to see them and I don't know how without software capable of plotting the data points on a graph. (Jesus is the key to our engine problems. Oh, wait...)
Reason I ask is because I am getting my Meth kit tomorrow. I got a Snow Performance Stage 1 kit and would like to put the nozzle in the best possible position. I will need a solenoid so it will not go in immediately so time is on my side. (Solenoids fail and sh*t goes bad quickly. Check valves is the key. Trust physics)
One big reason not to go into the surge tanks is a safe one; if the solenoid and check valve fail I run the risk of hydrolocking the engine. (Agreed. So don't put the meth/water nozzle there.)
From the experience I have seen from others who pioneered this mod for our platform, the inter-cooler area can hold most of the washer tank without it going into the heads through the surge tanks. (Incorrect)
Thanks for reading, (Thank you, for reading?)
Sean Anthony
The following users liked this post:
BlackHammer (10-06-2016)
10-06-2016, 08:51 AM
#47
Member
Erebus,
I will take your responses point by point. Thanks for taking the time to reply.
Agreed. As I stated earlier that fuel dumping to cool cylinders also stops pre-ignition knock timing from being pulled.
1. We agree here.
I haven't seen many platforms out there that's supercharged (more heat than turbos) and producing near 500 hp from the factory other than the CTS-V's? Wouldn't it be safe to assume factory Mercedes safety protocol to be a little sensitive considering the engine costs $30K+? Factory set-ups stay 60+ degrees above ambient while cruising moderate speeds. Timing starts pulling at 95 degrees IATs. What platforms do you know that do that?
2. The platforms I worked on are not stock so my experience is tuning modified stock and full race engines albeit a long time ago. As for tuning, any tuner will retard timing based on a number of factors, IAT being one of them. In that table we will scale timing retard based on temps, throttle position, and load or V/E. The knock tables are far more aggressive in timing retard than IAT tables on the Ford and Chevy stuff I programmed many years ago. As for what platforms pull timing at 95 degrees, I would expect most pull timing close to this temp in a supercharged application. I would expect turbos to be a bit higher.
Welcome to the world of the M113k
3. And the world of the CTS-V, and Shelby Mustang, and any number of other forced induction platforms.
(Retarding timing is suppose to make the AFR's rich. That's the purpose of retarding the timing?) (uh, that's the reasoning of these "IAT" threads. lol)
4. Many do not understand that retarding timing makes the mixture rich in addition to reducing detonation. I stated that so as to not assume.
(surprisingly enough, M156 N/A engines have a higher sensitivity to knock. Been there and done that. I have the t-shirt to prove it)
5. Do you have any threads for further reading? Obviously being NA they will not be as sensitive to IAT as it is not rising at near the rate of a supercharged engine.
(We are talking about triggers that effect timing. Knock sensor and IAT sensor.)
6. I was talking about datalogging and did not want to cloud the issue with fuel trims as I have seen in the past(not here).
(That is complete B.S on his part. The IAT sensor communicates to the ECU when to and not to pull timing. Nothing after the IAT sensor will help. Welcome to MBWorld, brother. The home of cold-aid drinkers)
7. Thanks for the welcome! But if I cool the charge going into the cylinders, would that not reduce knock allowing the same or more timing? Ultimately I wonder if the more aggressive timing retard will be from the knock sensor and not the IAT sensor. RedBullJunky's results are pretty good for that to all be B.S.
These set-ups cool the IAT sensor and create false readings. Unless you move the IAT sensor.......these are our only options.)
8. Regarding Denroll if he is really just fooling the IAT then why is Brammage, injecting 4-6" away from the sensor, seeing similar results? Wouldn't that also create a detonation prone situation, where knock sensors would retard timing to stop the inevitable detonation?
(Thank you. I've been saying that for a while now! Oh, wait.....are you talking about IAT sensor or meth/water nozzle? lol) (More IAT than knock. Again, timing starts pulling at 95 degrees)(Timing pulls during higher than allowed IATs. This alone stops the theory of a over zealous knock sensor (that's placed well after the IAT sensor)trumping the IAT sensor. Political pun, intended)
9. You state more IAT than Knock. Have you seen the tables an/or scalars for the ECU tune? I would love to see them if you can scan them. I do not see how to make that determination otherwise as I don't have enough data. As for the knock sensor, if the IAT sensor is pulling 1 -4 degrees of timing that is one thing, but if the knock sensor is pulling 5 degrees at once, that is another. I can not say that for sure as I don't know.
(Jesus is the key to our engine problems. Oh, wait...)
10. ?
(Solenoids fail and sh*t goes bad quickly. Check valves is the key. Trust physics)
11. Check valves can fail as well. That is why I have both. A filter before both will also go in to make sure I remove as much uncertainty as possible.
(Agreed. So don't put the meth/water nozzle there.)
12. Agreed on the safety aspect but think that could be managed, maybe with a flowmeter.
(Incorrect)
13. Why? I have seen more than one post where the controller failed and the pump put water in the intercooler area. Poster had to remove and drain out the water. Just by looking the water would have to fill the intercooler/Y pipe as well as go up to the surge tanks. then again, it may be less than a gallon and the engine shuts down due to no airflow. Not sure.
I am not discounting the need to cool IAT's. Just questioning if that is the highest gain available.
I have respect for all on here who have pioneered for what we have now and experienced failures and documented them. It allows others to come behind and reduce the time to improve the platform.
I don't think anyone would say that we have exhausted the potential of the M113k platform yet and discussions like this help spur on the thought processes that may make that next leap forward.
Sean
I will take your responses point by point. Thanks for taking the time to reply.
Agreed. As I stated earlier that fuel dumping to cool cylinders also stops pre-ignition knock timing from being pulled.
1. We agree here.
I haven't seen many platforms out there that's supercharged (more heat than turbos) and producing near 500 hp from the factory other than the CTS-V's? Wouldn't it be safe to assume factory Mercedes safety protocol to be a little sensitive considering the engine costs $30K+? Factory set-ups stay 60+ degrees above ambient while cruising moderate speeds. Timing starts pulling at 95 degrees IATs. What platforms do you know that do that?
2. The platforms I worked on are not stock so my experience is tuning modified stock and full race engines albeit a long time ago. As for tuning, any tuner will retard timing based on a number of factors, IAT being one of them. In that table we will scale timing retard based on temps, throttle position, and load or V/E. The knock tables are far more aggressive in timing retard than IAT tables on the Ford and Chevy stuff I programmed many years ago. As for what platforms pull timing at 95 degrees, I would expect most pull timing close to this temp in a supercharged application. I would expect turbos to be a bit higher.
Welcome to the world of the M113k
3. And the world of the CTS-V, and Shelby Mustang, and any number of other forced induction platforms.
(Retarding timing is suppose to make the AFR's rich. That's the purpose of retarding the timing?) (uh, that's the reasoning of these "IAT" threads. lol)
4. Many do not understand that retarding timing makes the mixture rich in addition to reducing detonation. I stated that so as to not assume.
(surprisingly enough, M156 N/A engines have a higher sensitivity to knock. Been there and done that. I have the t-shirt to prove it)
5. Do you have any threads for further reading? Obviously being NA they will not be as sensitive to IAT as it is not rising at near the rate of a supercharged engine.
(We are talking about triggers that effect timing. Knock sensor and IAT sensor.)
6. I was talking about datalogging and did not want to cloud the issue with fuel trims as I have seen in the past(not here).
(That is complete B.S on his part. The IAT sensor communicates to the ECU when to and not to pull timing. Nothing after the IAT sensor will help. Welcome to MBWorld, brother. The home of cold-aid drinkers)
7. Thanks for the welcome! But if I cool the charge going into the cylinders, would that not reduce knock allowing the same or more timing? Ultimately I wonder if the more aggressive timing retard will be from the knock sensor and not the IAT sensor. RedBullJunky's results are pretty good for that to all be B.S.
These set-ups cool the IAT sensor and create false readings. Unless you move the IAT sensor.......these are our only options.)
8. Regarding Denroll if he is really just fooling the IAT then why is Brammage, injecting 4-6" away from the sensor, seeing similar results? Wouldn't that also create a detonation prone situation, where knock sensors would retard timing to stop the inevitable detonation?
(Thank you. I've been saying that for a while now! Oh, wait.....are you talking about IAT sensor or meth/water nozzle? lol) (More IAT than knock. Again, timing starts pulling at 95 degrees)(Timing pulls during higher than allowed IATs. This alone stops the theory of a over zealous knock sensor (that's placed well after the IAT sensor)trumping the IAT sensor. Political pun, intended)
9. You state more IAT than Knock. Have you seen the tables an/or scalars for the ECU tune? I would love to see them if you can scan them. I do not see how to make that determination otherwise as I don't have enough data. As for the knock sensor, if the IAT sensor is pulling 1 -4 degrees of timing that is one thing, but if the knock sensor is pulling 5 degrees at once, that is another. I can not say that for sure as I don't know.
(Jesus is the key to our engine problems. Oh, wait...)
10. ?
(Solenoids fail and sh*t goes bad quickly. Check valves is the key. Trust physics)
11. Check valves can fail as well. That is why I have both. A filter before both will also go in to make sure I remove as much uncertainty as possible.
(Agreed. So don't put the meth/water nozzle there.)
12. Agreed on the safety aspect but think that could be managed, maybe with a flowmeter.
(Incorrect)
13. Why? I have seen more than one post where the controller failed and the pump put water in the intercooler area. Poster had to remove and drain out the water. Just by looking the water would have to fill the intercooler/Y pipe as well as go up to the surge tanks. then again, it may be less than a gallon and the engine shuts down due to no airflow. Not sure.
I am not discounting the need to cool IAT's. Just questioning if that is the highest gain available.
I have respect for all on here who have pioneered for what we have now and experienced failures and documented them. It allows others to come behind and reduce the time to improve the platform.
I don't think anyone would say that we have exhausted the potential of the M113k platform yet and discussions like this help spur on the thought processes that may make that next leap forward.
Sean
The following users liked this post:
BlackHammer (10-06-2016)
10-06-2016, 08:55 AM
#48
Member
The idea being that reducing knock would see less reduction of timing vs reduction due to IAT's. That would reduce power less.
That is a mother of an assumption though. I don't know enough about the platform yet. I may just do it and see what happens. Need a better datalogging system than OBD2 though.
Sean
10-06-2016, 04:29 PM
#49
Super Member
........
Erebus, Sean,
I will take your responses point by point. Thanks for taking the time to reply. No, thank you.
Agreed. As I stated earlier that fuel dumping to cool cylinders also stops pre-ignition knock timing from being pulled.
1. We agree here. Uh oh. Looks like a precursor to the rest, though. lol
I haven't seen many platforms out there that's supercharged (more heat than turbos) and producing near 500 hp from the factory other than the CTS-V's? Wouldn't it be safe to assume factory Mercedes safety protocol to be a little sensitive considering the engine costs $30K+? Factory set-ups stay 60+ degrees above ambient while cruising moderate speeds. Timing starts pulling at 95 degrees IATs. What platforms do you know that do that?
2. The platforms I worked on are not stock so my experience is tuning modified stock and full race engines albeit a long time ago. As for tuning, any tuner will retard timing based on a number of factors, IAT being one of them. In that table we will scale timing retard based on temps, throttle position, and load or V/E. The knock tables are far more aggressive in timing retard than IAT tables on the Ford and Chevy stuff I programmed many years ago. As for what platforms pull timing at 95 degrees, I would expect most pull timing close to this temp in a supercharged application. I would expect turbos to be a bit higher. Our M113k's were designed for Grand Touring.....not track monsters. The main problem with modifying the M113K is getting past all the fail safes.
Welcome to the world of the M113k
3. And the world of the CTS-V, and Shelby Mustang, and any number of other forced induction platforms. My introduction was not questioning what you know about cars. Heavy modifying to the M113K platform is somewhat of a nightmare compared to the platforms that have 50+ years of knowledge/experience and readily available parts. Just say'in
(Retarding timing is suppose to make the AFR's rich. That's the purpose of retarding the timing?) (uh, that's the reasoning of these "IAT" threads. lol)
4. Many do not understand that retarding timing makes the mixture rich in addition to reducing detonation. I stated that so as to not assume. Gotcha. I apologize, then.
(surprisingly enough, M156 N/A engines have a higher sensitivity to knock. Been there and done that. I have the t-shirt to prove it)
5. Do you have any threads for further reading? Obviously being NA they will not be as sensitive to IAT as it is not rising at near the rate of a supercharged engine. The M156 was AMG's first true in-house built from scratch motor. Having the highest compression of any other AMG.....they seemed to have miss something on the programing side. Both my CLK63 and ML63 have had issues with the knock sensors.
(We are talking about triggers that effect timing. Knock sensor and IAT sensor.)
6. I was talking about datalogging and did not want to cloud the issue with fuel trims as I have seen in the past(not here). Again, I apologize.
(That is complete B.S on his part. The IAT sensor communicates to the ECU when to and not to pull timing. Nothing after the IAT sensor will help. Welcome to MBWorld, brother. The home of cold-aid drinkers)
7. Thanks for the welcome! Gearheads united is a powerful thing. But if I cool the charge going into the cylinders, would that not reduce knock allowing the same or more timing? The hot charged air will trigger the IAT sensor to pull timing before knock sensor can respond. Ultimately I wonder if the more aggressive timing retard will be from the knock sensor and not the IAT sensor. RedBullJunky's results are pretty good for that to all be B.S. Who in the hell doesn't love Cool-Aid? He has claims on how his set-up was done in some type of fashion that allowed them to overcome issues that no one else can overcome. He is not willing to share this info, you see. Top secret stuff, man. So bad*ss was the knowledge that he, the builder and the tuner had that the company who built it is no longer in business. You can't compare his turbo set-up to a factory blower application when we don't know what was done. Period.
These set-ups cool the IAT sensor and create false readings. Unless you move the IAT sensor.......these are our only options.)
8. Regarding Denroll if he is really just fooling the IAT then why is Brammage, injecting 4-6" away from the sensor, seeing similar results? Wouldn't that also create a detonation prone situation, where knock sensors would retard timing to stop the inevitable detonation? There should be no question if placing the meth nozzle 6" in front of the IAT sensor if it will give false readings or not. Simple physics answers that question. Please keep in mind, the set up you mentioned is slowing down the IAT rise.........not stopping it. It would be safe to assume knock sensors will have to intervene if combustion temps are rising.
(Thank you. I've been saying that for a while now! Oh, wait.....are you talking about IAT sensor or meth/water nozzle? lol) (More IAT than knock. Again, timing starts pulling at 95 degrees)(Timing pulls during higher than allowed IATs. This alone stops the theory of a over zealous knock sensor (that's placed well after the IAT sensor)trumping the IAT sensor. Political pun, intended)
9. You state more IAT than Knock. Have you seen the tables an/or scalars for the ECU tune? I would love to see them if you can scan them. I do not see how to make that determination otherwise as I don't have enough data. As for the knock sensor, if the IAT sensor is pulling 1 -4 degrees of timing that is one thing, but if the knock sensor is pulling 5 degrees at once, that is another. I can not say that for sure as I don't know. We haven't made it that far in modifying the M113K to get past the IAT issue. lol. Valid questions, though. Working on a intercooler system that would allow us to make the knock sensor our next priority!
(Jesus is the key to our engine problems. Oh, wait...)
10. ?
(Solenoids fail and sh*t goes bad quickly. Check valves is the key. Trust physics)
11. Check valves can fail as well. That is why I have both. A filter before both will also go in to make sure I remove as much uncertainty as possible. Seems to be more solenoids failing than check valves, though.
(Agreed. So don't put the meth/water nozzle there.)
12. Agreed on the safety aspect but think that could be managed, maybe with a flowmeter. I like the idea of the meth/water spray having a little room to evaporate before reaching the cylinders!
(Incorrect)
13. Why? I have seen more than one post where the controller failed and the pump put water in the intercooler area. Poster had to remove and drain out the water. Just by looking the water would have to fill the intercooler/Y pipe as well as go up to the surge tanks. then again, it may be less than a gallon and the engine shuts down due to no airflow. Not sure. The intercooler is pretty shallow and would still allow excessive water to be pushed in the surge tanks.
I am not discounting the need to cool IAT's. Just questioning if that is the highest gain available. Valid question.
I have respect for all on here who have pioneered for what we have now and experienced failures and documented them. It allows others to come behind and reduce the time to improve the platform. It only helps the community if the ones with key information are willing to share it. That seems to be a problem here.
I don't think anyone would say that we have exhausted the potential of the M113k platform yet and discussions like this help spur on the thought processes that may make that next leap forward. Correct. That next leap forward is Speedriven's separate ECU system that just came out. Period.
Sean Anthony
I will take your responses point by point. Thanks for taking the time to reply. No, thank you.
Agreed. As I stated earlier that fuel dumping to cool cylinders also stops pre-ignition knock timing from being pulled.
1. We agree here. Uh oh. Looks like a precursor to the rest, though. lol
I haven't seen many platforms out there that's supercharged (more heat than turbos) and producing near 500 hp from the factory other than the CTS-V's? Wouldn't it be safe to assume factory Mercedes safety protocol to be a little sensitive considering the engine costs $30K+? Factory set-ups stay 60+ degrees above ambient while cruising moderate speeds. Timing starts pulling at 95 degrees IATs. What platforms do you know that do that?
2. The platforms I worked on are not stock so my experience is tuning modified stock and full race engines albeit a long time ago. As for tuning, any tuner will retard timing based on a number of factors, IAT being one of them. In that table we will scale timing retard based on temps, throttle position, and load or V/E. The knock tables are far more aggressive in timing retard than IAT tables on the Ford and Chevy stuff I programmed many years ago. As for what platforms pull timing at 95 degrees, I would expect most pull timing close to this temp in a supercharged application. I would expect turbos to be a bit higher. Our M113k's were designed for Grand Touring.....not track monsters. The main problem with modifying the M113K is getting past all the fail safes.
Welcome to the world of the M113k
3. And the world of the CTS-V, and Shelby Mustang, and any number of other forced induction platforms. My introduction was not questioning what you know about cars. Heavy modifying to the M113K platform is somewhat of a nightmare compared to the platforms that have 50+ years of knowledge/experience and readily available parts. Just say'in
(Retarding timing is suppose to make the AFR's rich. That's the purpose of retarding the timing?) (uh, that's the reasoning of these "IAT" threads. lol)
4. Many do not understand that retarding timing makes the mixture rich in addition to reducing detonation. I stated that so as to not assume. Gotcha. I apologize, then.
(surprisingly enough, M156 N/A engines have a higher sensitivity to knock. Been there and done that. I have the t-shirt to prove it)
5. Do you have any threads for further reading? Obviously being NA they will not be as sensitive to IAT as it is not rising at near the rate of a supercharged engine. The M156 was AMG's first true in-house built from scratch motor. Having the highest compression of any other AMG.....they seemed to have miss something on the programing side. Both my CLK63 and ML63 have had issues with the knock sensors.
(We are talking about triggers that effect timing. Knock sensor and IAT sensor.)
6. I was talking about datalogging and did not want to cloud the issue with fuel trims as I have seen in the past(not here). Again, I apologize.
(That is complete B.S on his part. The IAT sensor communicates to the ECU when to and not to pull timing. Nothing after the IAT sensor will help. Welcome to MBWorld, brother. The home of cold-aid drinkers)
7. Thanks for the welcome! Gearheads united is a powerful thing. But if I cool the charge going into the cylinders, would that not reduce knock allowing the same or more timing? The hot charged air will trigger the IAT sensor to pull timing before knock sensor can respond. Ultimately I wonder if the more aggressive timing retard will be from the knock sensor and not the IAT sensor. RedBullJunky's results are pretty good for that to all be B.S. Who in the hell doesn't love Cool-Aid? He has claims on how his set-up was done in some type of fashion that allowed them to overcome issues that no one else can overcome. He is not willing to share this info, you see. Top secret stuff, man. So bad*ss was the knowledge that he, the builder and the tuner had that the company who built it is no longer in business. You can't compare his turbo set-up to a factory blower application when we don't know what was done. Period.
These set-ups cool the IAT sensor and create false readings. Unless you move the IAT sensor.......these are our only options.)
8. Regarding Denroll if he is really just fooling the IAT then why is Brammage, injecting 4-6" away from the sensor, seeing similar results? Wouldn't that also create a detonation prone situation, where knock sensors would retard timing to stop the inevitable detonation? There should be no question if placing the meth nozzle 6" in front of the IAT sensor if it will give false readings or not. Simple physics answers that question. Please keep in mind, the set up you mentioned is slowing down the IAT rise.........not stopping it. It would be safe to assume knock sensors will have to intervene if combustion temps are rising.
(Thank you. I've been saying that for a while now! Oh, wait.....are you talking about IAT sensor or meth/water nozzle? lol) (More IAT than knock. Again, timing starts pulling at 95 degrees)(Timing pulls during higher than allowed IATs. This alone stops the theory of a over zealous knock sensor (that's placed well after the IAT sensor)trumping the IAT sensor. Political pun, intended)
9. You state more IAT than Knock. Have you seen the tables an/or scalars for the ECU tune? I would love to see them if you can scan them. I do not see how to make that determination otherwise as I don't have enough data. As for the knock sensor, if the IAT sensor is pulling 1 -4 degrees of timing that is one thing, but if the knock sensor is pulling 5 degrees at once, that is another. I can not say that for sure as I don't know. We haven't made it that far in modifying the M113K to get past the IAT issue. lol. Valid questions, though. Working on a intercooler system that would allow us to make the knock sensor our next priority!
(Jesus is the key to our engine problems. Oh, wait...)
10. ?
(Solenoids fail and sh*t goes bad quickly. Check valves is the key. Trust physics)
11. Check valves can fail as well. That is why I have both. A filter before both will also go in to make sure I remove as much uncertainty as possible. Seems to be more solenoids failing than check valves, though.
(Agreed. So don't put the meth/water nozzle there.)
12. Agreed on the safety aspect but think that could be managed, maybe with a flowmeter. I like the idea of the meth/water spray having a little room to evaporate before reaching the cylinders!
(Incorrect)
13. Why? I have seen more than one post where the controller failed and the pump put water in the intercooler area. Poster had to remove and drain out the water. Just by looking the water would have to fill the intercooler/Y pipe as well as go up to the surge tanks. then again, it may be less than a gallon and the engine shuts down due to no airflow. Not sure. The intercooler is pretty shallow and would still allow excessive water to be pushed in the surge tanks.
I am not discounting the need to cool IAT's. Just questioning if that is the highest gain available. Valid question.
I have respect for all on here who have pioneered for what we have now and experienced failures and documented them. It allows others to come behind and reduce the time to improve the platform. It only helps the community if the ones with key information are willing to share it. That seems to be a problem here.
I don't think anyone would say that we have exhausted the potential of the M113k platform yet and discussions like this help spur on the thought processes that may make that next leap forward. Correct. That next leap forward is Speedriven's separate ECU system that just came out. Period.
Sean Anthony
10-06-2016, 04:58 PM
#50
Member
Erebus,
So in your estimation, without moving the IAT sensor, where is the best place for the meth nozzle?
Intercooler seems to be the largest producer of heat after the supercharger. Closest we can get is right after it which is about 4-6 inches away from the IAT sensor.
Before supercharger seems to give poor results from the threads I have read here. Before intercooler has the potential to slow down the airflow.
Am I missing a spot?
Otherwise, in the y or just after the intercooler seem to be it. I like the y just for the reason that it is more accessible if I want to experiment.
As you stated previously we are fooling it either way (there is cooling going on as well but we are not really measuring the exact amount due to wet bulb effect on sensor).
So in your estimation, without moving the IAT sensor, where is the best place for the meth nozzle?
Intercooler seems to be the largest producer of heat after the supercharger. Closest we can get is right after it which is about 4-6 inches away from the IAT sensor.
Before supercharger seems to give poor results from the threads I have read here. Before intercooler has the potential to slow down the airflow.
Am I missing a spot?
Otherwise, in the y or just after the intercooler seem to be it. I like the y just for the reason that it is more accessible if I want to experiment.
As you stated previously we are fooling it either way (there is cooling going on as well but we are not really measuring the exact amount due to wet bulb effect on sensor).
