pmgiarrizzo

Hey everyone,

I'm looking to start a thread for everyone who has entertained the idea of installing a 90mm BBK throttle body. I am currently entertaining it and plan to make it happen.

I have been modding my car over the last 2 years of ownership, its a 2006 CLS55 AMG, in the engine bay, it's no different than the E55's in the engine bay and I wanted to post this here since there is so much more support on the E-Platform than the CLS-platform.

I want this thread to be a Q & A sort of thread for anyone that either HAS or is entertaining the idea of going from a stock TB to a 90mm TB.

So far, these are the facts:

BBK 90mm throttle body for various HEMI's

-BBK 1782 is the throttle body part number.

MB Supercharger Inlet #A1131400412

Electrical pin out is as follows:

MB --> Mopar
1-->3
2-->2
3-->6
4-->5
5-->4
6-->1

Mopar Wire harness #5183469AB is required as well as MB wire harness #1131500028.

The correct combination of these two harnesses will give you your adapter harness that will be a quick "plug and play" from your OEM harness into the HEMI TB.

Questions that I have:

1. Going from Stock TB to the BBK 90mm TB, will there be hiccup issues?

**I have heard some have it some don't, from what I'm gathering, those that went from stock to 80/82mm have hiccup issues and then went to 90mm and the issues followed. could be tune related? not sure...**

2. Will the car need a retune?

**spoke with eurocharged canada, they said no, the car should be able to adapt to it. I'm unsure how confident that "should be able to" is, but I guess we'll find out.**

**Notes on my go fast mods: stock TB, stock crank pulley, my own custom designed 77mm fixed pulley, EC FSP Tune, TCU Tune, my own custom designed beltwrap kit, 550cc injectors, needswings dual 3inch intake, EC headers, full custom 2.5" straight pipe exhaust with x-pipe, split cooling with FTP heat exchanger & engine bay reservoir, johnson cm30 pump custom wired to run the whole time the car is on. Dynoed at 500whp and 617wtq with AFR's in the high 10s-11:1, rich to say the least**

3. OEM throttle body has a "T" fitting below it for crank case ventilation. BBK 90mm TB does not. For those who have done this installation, please chime in to help those who haven't. What did you do to your "T" hose?

**some say vent this to atmosphere with a little breather filter. which im sure is fine, but if anyone is concerned about smell or oil vapours, what other solutions have people come up with?**

4. Does the rotational alignment of the throttle body matter? Some guys have the 90mm throttle body mounted 90 degrees compared to the OEM throttle body, so the throttle valve opens horizontally vs. vertically. Some other guys have it rotated at 45degrees. just curious if anyone knows whether this affects the flow of things in a hurtful way or not. there were claims on a few VW forums that I used to follow where people claimed that their cars ran smoother if the throttle body flap opened a certain way... turbo cars, not supercharged, so the throttle body was on the intake plenum already compressed vs ours right before the supercharger where the air is not compressed yet.

5. Does anyone make a Y-Pipe separately? No one seemed to make one previously unless you bought an intake system and specified the TB size you have. I know NeedsWings allows you to select or mention the 90mm TB for their Y-Pipe.

I just purchased a used but very clean supercharger inlet from Shardul and plan to cut/weld/grind/bore to make the BBK 90mm throttle body bolt onto the inlet. I will post my progress here as much as I can, and with my own experiences, I plan to post my results and information from my own learning. I have a wonderful TIG welding machine that I have at my shop, and I also work for a machine shop, so machining will be readily available as well. I plan to purchase a throttle body by the end of next week, along with the wire harnesses and that way I can make them up. I will do my absolute best to answer anyone's questions while I perform my own open heart surgery on my car.

If anyone has any insightful information, please forward it down. I will be removing the supercharger assembly from the car in order to properly fit the 90mm TB between the intake ///AMG plenums.

Thanks ahead of time,
Peter.

Hulk

Search denroll 90mm
He did a long thread on it, install and issues that arose

pmgiarrizzo

Hey Hulk, thanks for the reply. Ive read the thread a few times, and a few other ones at that, but the questions I've asked don't seem to be answered.

If they have, could you point them out to me? Maybe I skipped a few replies??

Not trying to sound rude or anything, but I swear I read those threads up and down lol.

Hulk

I'll do a quick break down... But denroll and some others in those threads covered it all...

1: hiccup issues..hard to say some do some don't, some cars can take the bigger tbs and some don't, there will tuners that say they can fix it but eventually will come back, the fsp will trigger the hiccup with the bigger tbs much easier.

2: car will need a retune

3: breather is fine but again denroll showed his y pipe and how he made a place for the crank case ventilation

4: no wont make any diff that you can actually measure.

5: no one makes one however again denroll showed how he made his in a few threads with pics.

pmgiarrizzo

Hulk, again, I can't thank you enough for your responses.

The "hiccup" that every one experiences, is it like a stumbling-fall on your face-bogging down feeling, in essence a power-loss feeling? or is it the opposite, a random increase in power for a momentary second where the car surges and then calms back down?

I can say that since I've had my FSP & tune, I wouldn't call it a "hiccup" but i have a surge that happens. If I drive the car as a normal person, modest throttle leaving a red light, just after the car shifts into 2nd gear, the car will literally sound and feel as though i have went from 20% throttle to 100% throttle and back down to 20% throttle in a blink of an eye. As long as I keep driving (not coming to a stop) it wont happen again. And once I hit another red light, same deal. I can make the problem happen in any gear, whether it be 1st, 2nd or 3rd even 4th if I'm delicate with the throttle. So its not the TCU tune that's affecting it. I haven't tried the throttle body reset yet, simply because some say that it actually does nothing, and some say it's a dream cure. Meh, coming from a VW forum, there were all kinds of witchcraft things to try, I tried them all on my GTI 1.8T and I can say they made absolutely no difference.

Hulk

Kind of that and there will be a lean condition as well. With the fsp you should be monitoring your afr and such anyway. The bigger tbs will just affect it more

pmgiarrizzo

Fair enough, I've been looking into some data logging software, I'd love to find one that is OBD2 plug-in style that is wireless which could also communicate with my tablet. I have a tablet in the car at all times due to the Renntech Lowering Module, I simply set the car height and go, but in case I find some crappy construction areas, I just raise the car up.

Any suggestions? Also, on the dyno, my car's AFR's were pretty rich, somewhere between 10.8:1 and 11:1, ideal stoichiometric ratio being 14.7:1. that's an engine tuners ideal dream number.

I think the TB might help the rich condition, I'm not running meth injection so that helps in terms of simplifying the AFR tuning.

Hulk

For this car tuners aim for 11.5-11.7 depending on timing. Best logging is ndash with zt2.
Good luck

tlambert

FSP?
Sorry I'm dumb. Lol

Ls1toAMG

Fixed supercharger pulley

Rocman8

Correct on 14.7:1 being stoichiometric. However, this is absolutely not anyone's dream number under WOT. For our engines Hulk is right on with the 11.5-11.7

tlambert

Wow I am dumb. too many abbreviations to keep up with.

Thanks for the help.

JoeNobody

to get the idle correct and prevent surging, you MUST install the crank vent after the throttle blade. That's the factory setup, and the engine can always breathe through crank vent (even if throttle blade is nearly closed).

I had problems with a stumbling idle on my 82mm, and when I installed crank vent after throttle blade 95% of my problems immediately went away.

You can install the crank vent by drilling a hole and jbwelding on the vent tube port from a MB throttle body (or just use a piece of stainless pipe that fits the stock crank vent).

AMG Lover, KRK

Great post, I have installed 90mm BBK 1782 TB on my modded 2004 E55 with high boost (SC clutched pulley and crank pulley) plus many other supporting modes like LT catless headers, straight 3” pipes, fuel rail and 550cc injectors etc etc.

I started the job based on Denroll write up, first I machined my snout aligned to the OEM style (the wrong way), and when I installed it on my supercharger, the 90mm TB did not fit obviously due to the right hand surge tank, then I had to solve this mistake by using adopter which eventually worked well based on 45% rotated TB, but due the adopter, the TB become too close to the firewall, so I had to shorten the TB neck at a machine shop... I did that and also rearranged the harness pins correctly. I connected the breather pipe to the snout OEM holes on the left side of the snout temporarily. I had very hard time looking for Y pipe, I ended up creating my own Carbon Fiber Y pipe using mold which is again temporary solution until I get a better Silicone Y pipe similar to Denroll's Y pipe.

Since I installed the BBK TB I am facing hick-ups, recently I received check engine cell and it was the TB sensor, the car is lean reading 13 plus on WOT, I will have to replace the TB soon, I ordered another 90mm BBK TB and it’s on the way now. Once I install it I will let you know the results.

pmgiarrizzo

Keep us posted on your results regarding the TB check engine light. Hopefully you have a simple solution.

As for the post above regarding the crank case ventilation, can anyone else confirm this? I would assume some guys, like Denroll, find a way of attaching it to the intake piping PRE-TB. If anyone has done it a different way, as mentioned above, installing POST-TB, post up results, I'm sure most of us would be very inclined to hear about it.

thanks,
Peter.

Hulk

https://mbworld.org/forums/w211-amg/...ts-pics-9.html

Post #206

RBM113K

Some just run a catch can

pmgiarrizzo

Hulk, thank you again for consist entry helping out this thread. I sincerely mean that.

And yes, some people do run catch cans, but for those who dont, placing the crank case breather post throttle body seems to be the most successful outcome. Maybe it's because the OEM system was designed like that. I can't speak with a definitive answer, but if it works, I won't argue it.

I am curious though, does the throttle body orientation matter. Some mount it like Denroll, which is 90 degrees counter-clockwise relative to the OEM throttle body, some mount it at 45 degrees relative to the oem throttle body, has anyone made it fit with the same orientation as the OEM throttle body? Does it make any difference? My guess is that the orientation doesn't make any difference simply because anything pre-supercharger rotors and post-throttle body is under vacuum (inside the snout volume) so essentially, no matter the intake design, it will "pull" the air through and turbulence is basically negligible because the rotors themselves cause enough turbulence.

But for arguments sake, does anyone think otherwise?

Hulk

No difference at all. Don't over complicate

AMG Lover, KRK

As far as the orientation is concerned, I don't think you have the option to imitate the OEM TB orientation, the reason is the BBK will not fit due to the passenger side surge tank. You will be forced to rotate until freely fit far from the surge tanks. This is due to the fact that the BBK is larger that the stock TB.

pmgiarrizzo

Agreed, I just figured I'd ask because I'm sure there would be some debate over it.

The BBK can be rotated to fit like OEM, but what will happen is the BBK throttle body bore will be largely off centre. without a Y-pipe on there, you may not see the difference right away due to it hiding behind everything. However, once you put one on, you will realize very quickly how off center it will look and the engine bay will definitely not be as pretty, and anyone trying to adapt their OEM airboxes will have a heck of a time trying to create asymetrical piping.

Since it is agreed that the throttle body orientation does not matter, the easier way of installation is definitely the way Denroll has his installed. I have personally *rough* placed the BBK in my engine bay and in terms of clearances and fitment, and overall centering the bore, it works out the best.

Cheers,
Pete @ PDG.Performance.

Crissus

I ALWAYS wondered if that might be the cause and the solution for the hiccup issue with the 82mm TBs...

pmgiarrizzo

After reading more about that idea, I'm starting to think it might have something to do with it, but not completely fix the issue. I am running the OEM throttle body and have a "surge" issue. I am running a fixed pulley and it may have something to do with that tune, but here's the easiest way to describe what happens:

- start the car, let it idle and warm up for 5-10 minutes.
- release e-brake, put car in drive and head down the road.
- normal driving under light throttle, no issues
- when pushing the gas pedal slightly more, the car surges forward, only momentarily, for literally a split second. it sounds as if i went WOT for literally an instant and back down to 15-20% throttle where it was.

If I keep the car driving very lightly on the pedal, the surge may happen as far as 3rd or 4th gear. simply because there isn't enough power being developed at 10-15% throttle. normally this surge happens in 2nd gear right after it shifts from 1st to 2nd. every time i drive the car i forget to record a video so that people might be able to understand what happens. The weird thing is, I've learned how to make it happen, and once it does happen, it wont *surge* again until the car comes to a full stop.

What is also worth noting, if I reset the ECU with a simple OBD2 scanner (do an "erase codes" even if there arent any) the surging doesnt happen for 50-100kms or a few start ups. Or if I disconnect the battery, same deal, it wont happen for 50-100kms of driving, or a few start ups. once an ECU is reset, all of the previous adaptations are reset. so upon first start, the car is learning about itself, learning about the tune, learning about all of the different parameters going on. So my assumption is that after the car has re-adapted to itself, thats when the surge comes back.

I have the oem throttle body, and all OEM crank case vents in the OEM spots. It may just be a fixed pulley tune thing. What I do think it might be is the Bypass valve closing and opening very quickly. The OEM system uses a clutch setup, so when you are light driving, the clutch is disengaged, however, when more pedal is used, the clutch engages and the bypass closes. maybe somewhere in the tune, in the programming of the bypass, it still sees that certain pedal position (example at 20-25%) where the clutch would normally be engaged and the bypass closes momentarily and then *remembers* oh sh*t I dont have a clutch anymore.

I wish i had one of those tiny scope cameras that has a wide angle lens that would show me both the throttle body and the bypass valve actuating while driving the car. that way i could see if my theory applies.

pmgiarrizzo

Does anyone know if the throttle body will actuate (move and open) with the key in position 2 (of course, engine will not be running).

I have made my adapter cable using the mopar pig-tail and the MB throttle body plug. I am very anxious to see the big throttle plate actuate.

From my experience and even asking my father (mechanic for over 30 years) and he says some cars will move the throttle body, and some will not, some ECU's need to have the engine running to allow throttle movement.

Before I waste time trying to fulfill the inner kid in me tonight, can anyone say "yay" or "nay"?

thanks,
Pete.

Hulk

Yes it will