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Old 07-26-2017, 07:40 AM
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Water meth install, interesting find

So guys, I have recently had a water meth kit installed. Still a job in progress as we have only fitted one nozzle in the y pipe just before throttle body for ease of use and testing. It's a size 10 for interest sakes.

Anyway so my reason for posting is I was playing with the controller in the garage, you know it's got round thing, knobs, so we have to see what it does lol.. On turning them to min settings, just with the key turned to acc so without engine running just electrical power on, the system activated and started spraying directly to the throttle plate. Without me realizing what was happening, only made sense after the fact the system was indeed spraying with engine off... So I started the car to find a serious amount of smoke/steam coming out of the right hand exhaust only. I have a full custom exhaust fitted. So my question is guys. How certain are we even with the injector placed post intercooler before IAT sensor (still single outlet) as a single inlet from the throttle, how certain are we that both banks are receiving the mixture, from this I can only assume that from the throttle body location only my right bank is seeing the water meth? I will post my video attached so you can see what I am on about. Almost seems to me that we need to injectors later on post IAT sensor to make sure both banks are getting the good stuff...https://youtu.be/jbBU2MuyaTA

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Old 07-26-2017, 09:25 AM
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can't be 100 percent its even distribution although it should be atomized and not pouring liquid into intake -- at engine off position some of your cylinder valves are probable open and they are the ones you are getting the most water into and steaming up -- I would run that thing for a while and burn off all the water/meth -- you are cooling off the charge not injecting NOS so its not as critical to be evenly distributed -- my 2 cents

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Old 07-26-2017, 09:38 AM
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Just FYI I had very little effect on Intake air temps by injecting post throttle body. I ended up putting 2 nozzles post supercharger IC.
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Old 07-26-2017, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by C32owner View Post
So guys, I have recently had a water meth kit installed. Still a job in progress as we have only fitted one nozzle in the y pipe just before throttle body for ease of use and testing. It's a size 10 for interest sakes.

Anyway so my reason for posting is I was playing with the controller in the garage, you know it's got round thing, knobs, so we have to see what it does lol.. On turning them to min settings, just with the key turned to acc so without engine running just electrical power on, the system activated and started spraying directly to the throttle plate. Without me realizing what was happening, only made sense after the fact the system was indeed spraying with engine off... So I started the car to find a serious amount of smoke/steam coming out of the right hand exhaust only. I have a full custom exhaust fitted. So my question is guys. How certain are we even with the injector placed post intercooler before IAT sensor (still single outlet) as a single inlet from the throttle, how certain are we that both banks are receiving the mixture, from this I can only assume that from the throttle body location only my right bank is seeing the water meth? I will post my video attached so you can see what I am on about. Almost seems to me that we need to injectors later on post IAT sensor to make sure both banks are getting the good stuff...
You puddled water some where in your intake and then started the car. I would be very thankful you didn't get water hammer on a cylinder

Anyways, when you spray meth into a hot intake when the car is running it vaporizes in the air, this is where you get the intake cooling affect from. This is also why it will be very well mixed when your car is actually running at temperature and spraying normally.

What you saw when you sprayed a bunch of water into your intake with the car off and then started it is not going to be indicative of whats happens when you spray meth correctly

Also there is a lot of debate on spraying pre-supercharger. You may have already looked it up and know what you want to do but just in case you haven't, you may want to look into it and re-think if you want to inject at that Y-pipe or not.

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Old 07-26-2017, 01:24 PM
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Thanks guys, yes I have read all the threads about w/m install and have been debating this for yrs... I expected no real gains from pre throttle as posted above, after reading your thread Sir.. It wasn't a boat load, maybe a second or 2 before I realized what was happening. I have ordered the gaskets to pull the supercharger off next and place the injectors as trial and tested. I am still battling with to place the injector post intercooler pre-sensor, or go after the sensor one one on each bank as has been done against everyone saying so and the guy got 70rwhp gains!!! Ps: managed to load the YouTube video if interested, in the first post.
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Old 07-26-2017, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by C32owner View Post
Thanks guys, yes I have read all the threads about w/m install and have been debating this for yrs... I expected no real gains from pre throttle as posted above, after reading your thread Sir.. It wasn't a boat load, maybe a second or 2 before I realized what was happening. I have ordered the gaskets to pull the supercharger off next and place the injectors as trial and tested. I am still battling with to place the injector post intercooler pre-sensor, or go after the sensor one one on each bank as has been done against everyone saying so and the guy got 70rwhp gains!!! Ps: managed to load the YouTube video if interested, in the first post.
I have dealt with meth on my previous cars, but not with this thing, so I don't know a lot of the car specifics, however, placing the nozzle post-IAT sensor I would wonder about loosing the benefit of the IAT sensor seeing the coolder air charge, and the advanced timing that would come with it.

Again, maybe something you've already thought of and researched, if it is just ignore me
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Old 07-26-2017, 03:14 PM
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A 10 nozzle pre-SC is a waste and spraying pre-TB is even worse. You are going to ruin your throttle body eventually.

Do you have a solenoid in place to prevent vacuum drawing in fluid?

Stock - #3 post TB pre-SC to seal rotors up
#5 post intercooler on the flat pad on the
bottom of the flat pad with a Devils Own
nozzle holder and DO#5 nozzle, others will
will not fit.
Tuned- #3 pre and #7-10 (possibly even a #12) post

Always test a system before you install it in the car for proper function to make sure your controllers actuate at the right pressure. An air compressor works great but you can use a damn bicycle pump to create the 7-10lbs of boost to turn the system on for testing.

Hope that helps a little
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Old 07-26-2017, 03:22 PM
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I ran them after the stock iat sensor location, and relocated the sensor so that it was after the spray.
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Old 07-27-2017, 08:28 AM
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I am installing the kit now on my modded E55 with one nozzle located post SC pre inter-cooler, my question is which nozzle size to use, I bought stage 3 snow performance kit which includes 4 different nozzles sizes (small, M, L & XL)
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Old 07-27-2017, 10:35 AM
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What mods? What size nozzles does the snow come with? Mine only had two and the larger as only a #3 in DO sizing.

The nozzles are also very long as are the holders. They will not fit underneath and I had a hard time making one fit on the side. I would recommend a DO 90 degree holder and use their nozzle, size depends on mods.

Mine is on the flat pad under the intercooler in the center of the exit. It is as far away from the IAT as you can get. I now have a 77 FSP so I run a #3 in supercharger snout and a #7 under intercooler.

Stock I ran just a #5 at intercooler.
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Old 07-27-2017, 12:53 PM
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Spraying pre-sc provides ZERO cooling no matter the size. It will,however, increase your boost a little.
Stay away from the D.O. braided lines. The internal crimp fittings will rust, clogging your nozzles and causing your solenoid to leak. Luckily I noticed before disaster struck. Stick with plastic lines. I have to re-plumb my entire system because of this.
Boostedaero's info is correct.

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Old 07-27-2017, 12:56 PM
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E55Greasemonkey,
I followed your post and installed as you did with the exception of plastic snow performance lines and mounted the nozzle in the pad in the center of the intercooler right at t he outlet.

I used heat shielding to make sure the plastic wouldn't melt. #3 and #7 respectively and I gained 1.5 psi of boost with the pre blower nozzle. No cooling but more boot.

Thank for your time to write up a comprehensive post and for documenting your trials!
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Old 07-27-2017, 02:21 PM
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Cool, I'm glad my info helped!
You should be getting around 30F cooling from your post-IC nozzle, unless you were referring to the pre-sc nozzle only.
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Old 07-27-2017, 03:09 PM
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Don't go overboard with the nozzle size, without tuning you will lose power with too much meth
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Old 07-27-2017, 06:33 PM
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Thanks guys for the posts, havnt driven the car since that night, but yes definitely saw am increase in boost. Waiting for new gaskets to arrive to lift the s/c and place a #10 nozzle post intercooler, not sure if I should leave the other nozzle in its current position, ie pre throttle body, and get the benefit of increased boost, but lower the size of it, so a #3, or plug that one and move that nozzle to pre-intercooler.
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Old 07-30-2017, 02:17 AM
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Originally Posted by seanol View Post
AMG Lover,
What mods? What size nozzles does the snow come with? Mine only had two and the larger as only a #3 in DO sizing.

The nozzles are also very long as are the holders. They will not fit underneath and I had a hard time making one fit on the side. I would recommend a DO 90 degree holder and use their nozzle, size depends on mods.

Mine is on the flat pad under the intercooler in the center of the exit. It is as far away from the IAT as you can get. I now have a 77 FSP so I run a #3 in supercharger snout and a #7 under intercooler.

Stock I ran just a #5 at intercooler.
I am using this kit:

Snow Performance Stage 3 Gasoline Boost Cooler Water/Methanol Injection Kit 310

Link to the exact item on ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Snow-Perform...BXkQLL&vxp=mtr
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Old 07-30-2017, 02:20 AM
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Originally Posted by seanol View Post
AMG Lover,
What mods? What size nozzles does the snow come with? Mine only had two and the larger as only a #3 in DO sizing.

The nozzles are also very long as are the holders. They will not fit underneath and I had a hard time making one fit on the side. I would recommend a DO 90 degree holder and use their nozzle, size depends on mods.

Mine is on the flat pad under the intercooler in the center of the exit. It is as far away from the IAT as you can get. I now have a 77 FSP so I run a #3 in supercharger snout and a #7 under intercooler.

Stock I ran just a #5 at intercooler.
Please see this photo on the nozzle location:





I hope it is the best place to use.
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Old 07-30-2017, 05:56 PM
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From the reading I have done here it is not the best. There were some posts about mixture interfering with the intercooler's ability to transfer heat. I mounted mine after the intercooler using the Devil's Own 90 nozzle holder and a #7 nozzle.
Attached Thumbnails Water meth install, interesting find-20170621_175102.jpg   Water meth install, interesting find-20170621_175109.jpg   Water meth install, interesting find-20170621_173224.jpg  
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Old 07-30-2017, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by seanol View Post
From the reading I have done here it is not the best. There were some posts about mixture interfering with the intercooler's ability to transfer heat. I mounted mine after the intercooler using the Devil's Own 90 nozzle holder and a #7 nozzle.
It's not the mixture that interferes with the intercooler, it's lowering the air temperature before the air goes through the intercooler.

The water/meth is going to remove X amount of heat from the surrounding air as it evaporates. That amount is going to be relatively fixed whether it's vaporizing in 120 air or 180 air. (It will be slightly higher at 180 because after the vapor absorbs the latent heat of vaporization it will still heat up to 180, but that will be very little compared to the energy absorbed through the phase change.

BUT the intercooler efficiency is higher the larger the difference in temperature is between the heat source and the heat sink. So the HOTTER the air is, the more energy will be transferd into the coolant.

If you spray PRE intercooler you remove X amount of heat, and THEN the air goes to the intercooler at a lower temperature, resulting in less heat transfer.
If you spray POST intercooler there is MORE heat transfer from the hotter air into the coolant at then intercooler, and THEN you remove the same amount of energy from with the evaporation of the water/meth spray.

So, from a theoretical standpoint, it is just more efficient to use meth/water POST intercooler

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Old 07-30-2017, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by drothgeb View Post
It's not the mixture that interferes with the intercooler, it's lowering the air temperature before the air goes through the intercooler.

The water/meth is going to remove X amount of heat from the surrounding air as it evaporates. That amount is going to be relatively fixed whether it's vaporizing in 120 air or 180 air.

BUT the intercooler efficiency is higher the larger the difference in temperature is between the heat source and the heat sink. So the HOTTER the air is, the more energy will be transferd into the coolant.

If you spray PRE intercooler you remove X amount of heat, and THEN the air goes to the intercooler at a lower temperature, resulting in less heat transfer. If you spray POST intercooler there is MORE heat transfer from the hotter air into the coolant, and THEN you remove the same amount of energy from with the evaporation of the water/meth spray.

So, from a theoretical standpoint, it is just more efficient to use meth/water POST intercooler
I agree with your theory!

But, and I qualify this with a but, I have also read that water inhibits transfer to the tubes, effectively acting as a coating if you don't get it all in small droplet form. The reason I qualified is that I have not tested this out, so i'm not sure.

Either way the location I shared is as far away from the IAT sensor as possible and is not pointed at the MAP sensor, theoretically making it last longer than the side position normally used.
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Old 09-10-2017, 05:06 PM
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My only observation with Meth on most of the installs I see is a false reading from the sensor. When you spray any liquid on a "sensor" its going to theoretically give a false reading...no? Might as well take the sensor out and just run it on the air filter intake like the old school stuff.
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Old 09-12-2017, 06:43 PM
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Yip I tend to agree, not sure how that effects things in this motor with spraying the sensor and getting a "false" reading.. I would love to know more guys fitting their nozzles (2 of them) 1 in each
Y, post intercooler post sensor and see if there is still benefit. One person I read about doing it that way claims a massive power increase.
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Old 09-13-2017, 03:18 AM
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Originally Posted by C32owner View Post
Yip I tend to agree, not sure how that effects things in this motor with spraying the sensor and getting a "false" reading.. I would love to know more guys fitting their nozzles (2 of them) 1 in each
Y, post intercooler post sensor and see if there is still benefit. One person I read about doing it that way claims a massive power increase.
I did this, but I also relocated my IAT sensor so that it was after the spray. Worked well.

The IAT sensor will only see the temperature of the fluid for a brief period of time until it evaporates from the heat of the air)
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Old 09-13-2017, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by C32owner View Post
Yip I tend to agree, not sure how that effects things in this motor with spraying the sensor and getting a "false" reading.. I would love to know more guys fitting their nozzles (2 of them) 1 in each
Y, post intercooler post sensor and see if there is still benefit. One person I read about doing it that way claims a massive power increase.
You would still reduce detonation, and lower your afr(depending on what you are spraying) but you would miss out from a good portion of the benefit.

A large amount of the benefit would also be from the ECU seeing the colder charge temps, and advancing timing because of it. If you spray post sensor you will not receive those benefits, the engine will still THINK the air is going in at what ever the temp is coming out of the supercharger.

My thought is, to get the most benefit you want to spray post intercooler but pre IAT sensor. Place the nozzle to get as much distance from the nozzle and IAT sensor that you can and you probably wont have any issues. If you look at how well a good nozzle sprays, it's already coming out as a mist, there are no droplets, it is going to vaporize and mix with the intake air very quickly and as long as you get a couple inches between the nozzle and the sensor you will probably have no issues.


EDIT: After some quick googling most people are recommending 4-6 inches from the IAT sensor, so placement like seanol did should be perfect. Also I found this article on the devilsown website which basically backs up everything I've stated in the thread just with a little less detail as to why. They recommend using position 3 for the nozzle, as close to the outlet of the intercooler as possible and pre IAT sensor. (The diagram is for a turbo charged car but the concept is the same)

http://www.alcohol-injection.com/en/...jection-nozzle


Last edited by drothgeb; 09-13-2017 at 02:00 PM.
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Old 09-14-2017, 06:35 PM
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Cool enough thanks for that. Monday SC is coming off and we redoing the nozzle placement. Can't wait to actually see results this time. If I go with 2 nozzles, one in each Y section post intercooler, what size is recommended? The mix will be no more than 50/50.
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