Dr Chill

The brake response IMO is far more linear than those on my mom's early E500, but I heard they improved the software somewhere during 2003. The E55 brakes stop the car well on the street as well as on the track, but don't handle heat well. Nor do the heavy rotors one of which vents air in the wrong direction due to MB's cheapness. I doubt many of you have experienced as much braking in this car as I have going from 150 to 40 mph with maximum braking force lap after lap. I have also disassembled much of the brake components with the assistance of an automotive engineer who runs a Grand Am GTS race team. He was impressed driving the car and with the brakes before examining them. The brakes are fine for street use and although they feel a little unusual at first, they just take a short time to become aclimated to. Hopefully Pagid will come through with race pads for the car soon!

The steering response and turn in is where this car falters on the track, but it's still a blast to drive. Lowering the car has helped a little as well as lower profile 19" tires, but road comfort is sacrificed. The car is slower than the 911TT on the track but this is 95% due to the handling differences and the E55's excessive understeer. The 911 will not pull away from the E55 on the straights from 50-150 mph. The E55 will post better lap times than a Viper because the Viper is harder to drive as effectively by most relative novices.

E55 owners will say their car accelerates faster and M5 owners will say their car handles and feels better, but 99% of their owners will never utilize their cars to make use of the differences. I don't care if someone says that they drive the car pretty hard and really use the torque or lateral acceleration because in reality, the extremes of street driving use 70% of the cars true ability's. Unless you take these cars to the track and really push them hard, the true superiority of one or the other will not surface.

Bottom line is, E55 is an awesome car and the best all around vehicle for under 100K on the market today. The upcoming M5 will give it a run for the money. It all boils down to two issues IMO, whether you prefer a manual transmission, and can you stomach the BMW's looks inside and out.

Vic55

I had an M5, still have an M3 and now have the E55. I get the best of both worlds in a great handling BMW manual (actually SMG but I drive it like a manual) and super beastly straightline power of the E55.

The war of the time slips and forum bashes will go on until the end of time. When I got my first E55 (W210) it was the greatest thing with 4 doors and then came the E39 M5 which was supposedly better (magazinewize) but like everyone has mentioned before each has its positive and negative attributes.

Now MBZ comes out the supercharged E55 and has one upped BMW. I love my E55 but my M5 was an awesome car too- and so was the W210 E55. To me its worth it to get the latest 4 door beast out there. I didnt want to keep my M5 anymore and couldn't wait for the new one nor do I like the styling. I am sure when the M5 comes out I will see one on the road and lose in a race and vice-a-versa. I dont think there is a clear cut winner- its all personal taste. Brakes, interior, steering, handling, acceleration, power, etc, some are better with the Benz and some better with the M5. I just prioritized what was more important to me and made my decision.

I love the power, acceleration, and luxury of my new E55 but miss the driveability of the M5. Its a trade off that one has to weigh out. For me I like to mash and go- I am older and getting married this year. I no longer wish to row when I am driving and when I do I take out my M3.

No regrets, zero, on trading in my M5 for the W211 E55. Do I miss it yes, remorse in any way- no.

jkrutch

I just wish MB would have gone the extra mile and done 2 things....Offered us a tranny CHOICE and cut the fat by using light-weight materials where possible. IMO that would have ended the debate. Other than the power, there is nothing "sporty" about the E55. It is still an awesome car.

krispykrme

how would you know? I have for more than once blasted the stupidity of SMG and lack of low end torque on the M3 straight 6. Go read some of my post in BMW board. There are things I don't like with BMW either.

M3 lacks low end torque, and it could be easily beaten in straight line if you are in wrong gear. SMG is too smart for its own good. Double clutch for you when you want to go.

Just because you don't read other board, does not mean I do not blast my other cars.

The problem with you is that you can's see past your bias. Each car has its draw back and advantages. M3 although great blast to drive, it lacks serious punch especially at low end.

stephens

Now that wasn't so hard was it, finally some mature debate.
Dr Chill, I couldn't have said it better myself.

jrohlf

I owned a 00 M5 for 4 years and have had an 04 E55 for 5 months so I'm not speculating or regurgitating magazine articles. To me, the M5 has much better steering feel - quicker ratio, better on-center feel, firmer, tighter. Handling-wise the E55 feels larger, more boat-like. Power-wise, or I should say torque-wise, there is no comparison, the E55 dominates and does so effortlessly with its automatic transmission. I personally don't find the E55 brakes problematic in the least and if they don't modulate perfectly I don't care because it's not my track car.

My major worries when purchasing were the tight bolstering of the seats (which turned out to be no problem) and the steering/chuckability (which are a big step down from the M5 but again, it's not my track car). All in all, I prefer the E55 over my M5 because:

1. It's silver instead of pita black 8-).
2. It's automatic instead of manual.
3. It's under factory warranty.
4. It is a torque monster (definitively faster than a 360 but we won't go into that).
5. The traction control is infinitely better than the M5

P.S. I do not think the 6.5L AMG engines will have a significant torque advantage over the blown ones (and little of the tuneablility) and the new M5 will be like the sedan version of an S2000 - all revs, no torque (369 lb-ft is pathetic).

krispykrme

this is one thing that really concerns me. with the E60 M5 going through to M3 direction. Chances are any decent car with 400 HP and 400 lb-ft of torque could eat M5 in straight line if the driver of M5 is not capable.

I would have liked to have more torque on the new M. In addition, i still do not like the SMG only choice. although i have said in another board that dissing SMG-III so early without experience is wrong. But i still prefer to have a clutch pedal. As smart as SMG is, the stupid double clutch on its own really bothers me. It's easy to time the engagement of gear with SMG, but SMG controlled double clutching is stupid!

W210

Is the M version of the SMG really that bad? I have ready lots of positive things about it but have yet to experience it first hand.

And I'm having rather high expectation on SMG3. I was told even SMG2 is miles aherad of the 2002 360 F1 I have driven (which I was not too impressed with its slow upshifts).

krispykrme

let me clarify.

The SMG-II takes a while to get used to. If the driver has not driven a manual before and does not know the concept of clutch and gas. He or she would have hard time drving SMG.

For starter, if you did not press the gas pedal deep enough at complete stop. You will have a very jerky launch. I.E like some one dump clutch too fast. It will not stall, just a very rough launch. But after couple times, you will get used to it.

My beef with SMG-II is that during cornering just about exit the turn. It will double clutch for you to maintain the rev so you can stay in power band for exit. The problem is that with true manual you can time the input of gas pedal with release of clutch. So when you stomp on the gas, the car will go. But with SMG, often you stomp on the gas, SMG is still doing its double clutch (i.e. the gear is no engaged). So basically you stomp on the gas and nothing happens. Which means by the time the clutch engages, you are already pass the exit point and you lose quiet a bit of speed out of the turn.

The upshift itself in normal driving is very straight forward. It's just when it down shifts and your RPM drops too much, the SMG just compensates too much.

I would much prefer to still have a true clutch pedal.

W210

I think I'll wait for a test drive before committing myself then. Apparently where I live, a test drive of the next M5 can actually be arranged. We'll see.

ColorChange

Stephans and Dr. Chill: I am 100% with you guys. The brakes are fine but get too hot (your working on that Chill) on the track. The steering, especially transients (turn in) and then understeer is by far the weakest part of the car in normal driving. At the track, turning (turn-in and understeer) and overheated brakes are the two problem areas (again form DR Chill but I am sure I will confirm in two weeks when I track the car).

norb

"My beef with SMG-II is that during cornering just about exit the turn. It will double clutch for you to maintain the rev so you can stay in power band for exit. The problem is that with true manual you can time the input of gas pedal with release of clutch. So when you stomp on the gas, the car will go. But with SMG, often you stomp on the gas, SMG is still doing its double clutch (i.e. the gear is no engaged). So basically you stomp on the gas and nothing happens. Which means by the time the clutch engages, you are already pass the exit point and you lose quiet a bit of speed out of the turn."

Are you talking about during automatic mode? That doesn't make sense, why would you be switching gears at mid turn?

krispykrme

No this occur in either mode (however, its worst in auto mode). As you are going into the turn, your speed drops. Hence, when you are exit the turn, you should be in lower gear than the one you enter the turn with.

Regardless in which mode, SMG will compensate for dropping of RPM. Unless you are power sliding throuh the turn, your RPM will drop. Hence SMG will compensate the dropping of RPM by double clutching for you. And when you are about to power out of the turn at lower gear. Nothing just happens.

norb

Yes I've experienced that but only in full auto mode. I also find annoying the fact that it will up shift in the middle of a turn, unlike our AMGs which has a sensor to keep it in gear during turns.

The only way to prevent this is to only use SMG in manual mode and downshift before the turn and hold it till you exit. Then if you must, give it gas then shift, it will tell the computer to quicken the shift. Also anything under S5 is a waste. I always kept if as S5 and didn't bother with auto mode or the lower S's.

krispykrme

It's not that simple either. It really depends on the turn itself. For example i may be in 5 th gear just entering the turn. If the turn is sharp I may need to exit the turn in 2nd gear. Which means I can't downshift into 2nd before the turn. In addition, as soon as SMG detect your engine speed is dropping to a certain level it will put the car in neutral even in S-mode. Hence there really is nothing I can do. If i had a true clutch pedal, I can control this.

This is why I think SMG is too smart for its own good. I still do not see the benefit of SMG. If BMW is going to take away the clutch pedal, at least give me some other way to control the clutch.

As i recall the old beetle and saab Sensonic took away the clutch pedal. But at least when you put in gear, you can go immediatetly. None of this smart SMG BS.

norb

I still don't get it? If you're entering a turn and SMG down shifts for you in manual mode its because you're about to lug your engine, you should down shift manually. Its not thinking, that's the problem with SMG. And I don't remember SMG double clutching, it does rev match when downshifting so it may seem like double clutching.

krispykrme

No, no.

When entering the turn, you can't go from 5th to 2nd. you will over rev the engine. So I often just do nothing. However, i would let the gas go and engine RPM would fall off and SMG would down shift for you. And may be you are right, its doing a rev matching. I can't really recall whether it is double clutching. But the car was in neutral and rev was climbing. In addition, if you steped on the gas at that time. There is no response from the throttle input. That's why I have always assumed that it is double clutching for you.

If i manually downshift, which I have done before when RPM allows. It would still hold the car in neutral for longer than I expect it would.

norb

What kind of turn are you doing in 5th gear that you need to go to 2nd gear when exiting? Thats a fast *** curve with a decreasing radius? They don't engineer those kind of turns in the US.

But I know the helpless feeling of trying to give SMG auto mode gas in mid shift, that's why after the first few weeks, I drove in manual mode 100% of the time as well as never using the stick shift and using the paddles exclusively.

smgC32

You are entering that turn (5th to 2nd gear) too fast. I don't understand why you are not manually shifting in sequence to the next lower gears as you approach the turn and begin its entry?

Are you downshifting at the same time as you are braking? Please explain in more detail the turn in question. Your turn exit speed may be faster if you enter the turn slower. Time your entry, apex and exit in a variety to gears to see where you are faster. You may be suprised and find that a 5-4-3 downshift under braking into entry and 3rd gear through the apex and on through the exit at a lower RPM (compared to a higher RPM in 2nd) may be the fastest way out and the fastest way through the total corner. If you drive the SMG gearbox correctly, you should not have these issues, be on the gas at all times through the corner at various throttle positions, and never need to deal with a too low RPM situation causing the gearbox to override you desires and hang up mid turn.

Prasith32

how does the smg feel when downshifting and trail braking?

Does it make the car feel squirrely?

krispykrme

no, it's was at autocross and at couple tracks in the bay area.

no, it occurs in the manual mode as well. I never get used the paddle. I always keep in S6 and uses the SMG stick to shift. During tracking, the pedal behind the wheel are just too hard to use.

krispykrme

contrary to populare belief. Even though the M3's engine is a high rev engine. It actuall take some time for the rev and torque to build up. So staying at third is not really that good of an option.

M3's engine is very soft at low RPM. You would probably see your hair turn gray waiting for that sucker to generate some decent punch.

norb

How do you autocross or track the car and let SMG downshift for you? I don't get it? Plus if you're high performance driving, in S6, it will never have the alleged slow shift you were describing. And agian if you're entering a turn in 5th gear with a 2nd gear exit, you aren't slowing down in time and are shifting and braking into the apex which would surely cause you to skid out of control.

jkrutch

That's because his wife told him to do it that way!

Sorry, KK but I coudn't resist that one!

krispykrme

Not really. Even though I am still in 5th. It does not mean I am not slowing down. SMG will not down shift until your RPM drops to less than 2k (or 1500, I can't remember).

With 2nd gear exit, you are talking about 65 miles exit. The speed difference is not as big as you think there is. In addition, even though I am in S6 mode. If your RPM drops, and SMG took over the downshift. It's not quick to engage the gaer. Try it on the highway and when you exit the ramp let your RPM drop. Watch what happened and you will see why I am complaining about it.