E55 SC Water Pump Problem
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MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Apr 2002
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From: Melbourne, Australia
E55, F550, S600 Ducati 999
E55 SC Water Pump Problem
As some of you may know I have had a recently suspected faulty SC electric water pump.
Symptoms were low terminal velocity in the 1/4 mile and when connected to Star Diagnostics, inlet charge temps exceeded 180 degrees F in third gear under full acceleration.
The pump was replaced under warranty ( I have a friend in low places who organised this for me without really knowing if it was a dud)
It was replaced yesterday and I did some tests tonight on the G-Tech Comp, I will check inlet temps tomorrow on Star.
Good news, the car is showing a 50 rwhp performance increase, more importantly, it is holding the power all the way through to 120mph, rather than dropping off dramatically in third gear as it used to, which I had previously put down to aerodynamic drag.
For those of you unfamiliar the G-tech Comp graphs power against speed amongst other things.
My previous tests with the G- Tech resulted in the following numbers based on ambient temps of 10 degrees C (50 F).
0-60mph 4.5sec
0-100mph 8.7sec
1/8 Mile 8sec @94mph
1/4 Mile 12.2sec @ 116mph
0-120mph 12.2sec
Peak Power 390 rwhp @ 60mph, 330hp @ 100mph
Peak power on a Dyno Dynamics dyno at the time was 400rwhp.
On the drag strip in 30 degree C temps (86 F) the car ran a best of 12.2@112mph with a 7.8@90mph 1/8 time in this config.
If I had run the car at the drag strip at similar ambient temps, I would have easily beaten the G-tech's measured 1/4 mile time, as this is badly traction limited on the street. The car had a faulty throttle position sensor and the ECU was not mapped properly at the time. Not withstanding this you can see the G-Tech Comp was actually fairly accurate.
After these were fixed, the car ran a best of 11.98@114mph with a 7.7@92mph in 20 degree C (68F) conditions at the drag strip.
On the G-tech tonight in 10 degree C (50F) conditions I got the following results.
0-60mph 4.5sec (traction limited)
0-100mph 8.4sec
1/8 mile 7.7@95mph
1/4 mile 11.7sec@123mph
0-120 11.2sec
Peak Power 440hp @ 60mph, 420hp@ 100mph.
These numers are based on three separate runs.
I think my problem is solved. I'm looking forward to seeing the air inlet temps tomorrow. My friend discovered that there appears to be enough room under the water washer bottle to fit another one, so we will be plumbing it into the system next week to increase the cooling capacity of the car.
Symptoms were low terminal velocity in the 1/4 mile and when connected to Star Diagnostics, inlet charge temps exceeded 180 degrees F in third gear under full acceleration.
The pump was replaced under warranty ( I have a friend in low places who organised this for me without really knowing if it was a dud)
It was replaced yesterday and I did some tests tonight on the G-Tech Comp, I will check inlet temps tomorrow on Star.
Good news, the car is showing a 50 rwhp performance increase, more importantly, it is holding the power all the way through to 120mph, rather than dropping off dramatically in third gear as it used to, which I had previously put down to aerodynamic drag.
For those of you unfamiliar the G-tech Comp graphs power against speed amongst other things.
My previous tests with the G- Tech resulted in the following numbers based on ambient temps of 10 degrees C (50 F).
0-60mph 4.5sec
0-100mph 8.7sec
1/8 Mile 8sec @94mph
1/4 Mile 12.2sec @ 116mph
0-120mph 12.2sec
Peak Power 390 rwhp @ 60mph, 330hp @ 100mph
Peak power on a Dyno Dynamics dyno at the time was 400rwhp.
On the drag strip in 30 degree C temps (86 F) the car ran a best of 12.2@112mph with a 7.8@90mph 1/8 time in this config.
If I had run the car at the drag strip at similar ambient temps, I would have easily beaten the G-tech's measured 1/4 mile time, as this is badly traction limited on the street. The car had a faulty throttle position sensor and the ECU was not mapped properly at the time. Not withstanding this you can see the G-Tech Comp was actually fairly accurate.
After these were fixed, the car ran a best of 11.98@114mph with a 7.7@92mph in 20 degree C (68F) conditions at the drag strip.
On the G-tech tonight in 10 degree C (50F) conditions I got the following results.
0-60mph 4.5sec (traction limited)
0-100mph 8.4sec
1/8 mile 7.7@95mph
1/4 mile 11.7sec@123mph
0-120 11.2sec
Peak Power 440hp @ 60mph, 420hp@ 100mph.
These numers are based on three separate runs.
I think my problem is solved. I'm looking forward to seeing the air inlet temps tomorrow. My friend discovered that there appears to be enough room under the water washer bottle to fit another one, so we will be plumbing it into the system next week to increase the cooling capacity of the car.
Senior Member
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From: Banana Republic of Louisiana
2002 E55K RENNtech HP
stephens
Wow, if you can do such at the dragstrip I will be bowing to you!
Keep us posted when you make it to the track again. Sounds like you are getting cooler weather, we are getting warmer!
Wow, if you can do such at the dragstrip I will be bowing to you!
Keep us posted when you make it to the track again. Sounds like you are getting cooler weather, we are getting warmer!
Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,256
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From: Melbourne, Australia
E55, F550, S600 Ducati 999
Yes we are well and truly into winter now.
I will wait until confirmation of inlet charge temps before getting too excited, because I may still be exceeding the capacity of the cooling system with the boost that is being run. This will be resolved with an increase in cooling capacity if required, then your crown will be mine!!!!
I will wait until confirmation of inlet charge temps before getting too excited, because I may still be exceeding the capacity of the cooling system with the boost that is being run. This will be resolved with an increase in cooling capacity if required, then your crown will be mine!!!!
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300ce
.........this post of interest to me. This is the first I have heard of a water pump problem in a W211 E55. These gars are relatively new, and will be interesting to see if more water pump problms develop. As some might know, the design of the AMG s/c and water pump is almost identical to that of the Kleemann. I don't know who copied who, but water pump failures are not an uncommon problem with the Kleemann system. Kleemann has had to change their design somewhat but the jury is still out.
Ted
Ted
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MBWorld Fanatic!
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From: Melbourne, Australia
E55, F550, S600 Ducati 999
Ted from my research it appears that it is not uncommon on the MB SC unit. Mnay owners probably don't even realise they have the problem.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 5,143
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From: South Orange County, CA
4 wheels
I had my water pump replaced after 2 weeks of owning the car. The dealer was shocked at first, then when I went to two weaks later to pick up some stuff from the Parts Department I spoke to the service manager again. He said that after I left that same day 2 other E55 owners came in with the same problem.
Super Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 562
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From: Chicago
E55
Originally posted by stephens
Ted from my research it appears that it is not uncommon on the MB SC unit. Mnay owners probably don't even realise they have the problem.
Ted from my research it appears that it is not uncommon on the MB SC unit. Mnay owners probably don't even realise they have the problem.
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MBWorld Fanatic!
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300ce
.......i have two kleemann cars and the water pump has failed twice in one of them and not yet in the second. The second one is relatively new. I don't know how much intimate knowledge people with the W211 E55 have about their s/c set up. It is almost identical to the Kleemann. For this reason, I made a mental note to check if the two two systems (ie Kleemann and AMG) will have the same problems. IT turns out from this forum that they do indeed have the same problems.
.........one way to tell that you have a water pump problem is a subtle loss of power. But because these cars have so much power, such a small loss may not be detected. A second way to tell is by the sound of the s/c........when the water pump fails, their is a subtle grinding noise that experienced mechanics can detect by listening to the engine with a stetescope. this is by far the earlist way to tell. Later on, the noise can become audible to the naked ear.
.............waterpumps are relatively cheap to replace. They cost about $600. The problem is that if the water pump fail;ure is not detected early, it can lead to failure of the s/c itself which is quite expensive.
.............In North America, you are lucky if your MB dealer mechanic knows what a water pump is, let alone be able to diagnose it with a stetescope. If their is no fault code on the computer, they give you the customary blank stare. In summary, water pump failure is something that owners of cars with AMG s/c and and/or the almost identical Kleemann s/c should be vigilant for.
Ted
.........one way to tell that you have a water pump problem is a subtle loss of power. But because these cars have so much power, such a small loss may not be detected. A second way to tell is by the sound of the s/c........when the water pump fails, their is a subtle grinding noise that experienced mechanics can detect by listening to the engine with a stetescope. this is by far the earlist way to tell. Later on, the noise can become audible to the naked ear.
.............waterpumps are relatively cheap to replace. They cost about $600. The problem is that if the water pump fail;ure is not detected early, it can lead to failure of the s/c itself which is quite expensive.
.............In North America, you are lucky if your MB dealer mechanic knows what a water pump is, let alone be able to diagnose it with a stetescope. If their is no fault code on the computer, they give you the customary blank stare. In summary, water pump failure is something that owners of cars with AMG s/c and and/or the almost identical Kleemann s/c should be vigilant for.
Ted
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Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 282
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From: NYC
03 E55 k2; Ford GT
Stephens,
I certainly sounds like you have fixed the problem. Good Luck.
With regards to a potential water pump problem and its detection, would the engine temp gauge show any increased readings?
I certainly sounds like you have fixed the problem. Good Luck.
With regards to a potential water pump problem and its detection, would the engine temp gauge show any increased readings?
Out Of Control!
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 21,014
Likes: 2
From: CA, NV, CO
Originally posted by Ted Baldwin
.i have two kleemann cars and the water pump has failed twice in one of them and not yet in the second.
Ted
.i have two kleemann cars and the water pump has failed twice in one of them and not yet in the second.
Ted
In summary, water pump failure is something that owners of cars with AMG s/c and and/or the almost identical Kleemann s/c should be vigilant for.
Thanks
Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 133
Likes: 0
From: Puerto Rico
MB E55 2004
Stephens:
I went to the dealer today and the mechanic put the pump to work direct and said that there was no problem with it, he is a freind of mine so he ordered it anyways. I will have it installed on Wednesday.
Regards,
E55 POWER
I went to the dealer today and the mechanic put the pump to work direct and said that there was no problem with it, he is a freind of mine so he ordered it anyways. I will have it installed on Wednesday.
Regards,
E55 POWER
Former Vendor of MBWorld
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Originally posted by Ted Baldwin
.......i have two kleemann cars and the water pump has failed twice in one of them and not yet in the second. The second one is relatively new. I don't know how much intimate knowledge people with the W211 E55 have about their s/c set up. It is almost identical to the Kleemann. For this reason, I made a mental note to check if the two two systems (ie Kleemann and AMG) will have the same problems. IT turns out from this forum that they do indeed have the same problems.
.........one way to tell that you have a water pump problem is a subtle loss of power. But because these cars have so much power, such a small loss may not be detected. A second way to tell is by the sound of the s/c........when the water pump fails, their is a subtle grinding noise that experienced mechanics can detect by listening to the engine with a stetescope. this is by far the earlist way to tell. Later on, the noise can become audible to the naked ear.
.............waterpumps are relatively cheap to replace. They cost about $600. The problem is that if the water pump fail;ure is not detected early, it can lead to failure of the s/c itself which is quite expensive.
.............In North America, you are lucky if your MB dealer mechanic knows what a water pump is, let alone be able to diagnose it with a stetescope. If their is no fault code on the computer, they give you the customary blank stare. In summary, water pump failure is something that owners of cars with AMG s/c and and/or the almost identical Kleemann s/c should be vigilant for.
Ted
.......i have two kleemann cars and the water pump has failed twice in one of them and not yet in the second. The second one is relatively new. I don't know how much intimate knowledge people with the W211 E55 have about their s/c set up. It is almost identical to the Kleemann. For this reason, I made a mental note to check if the two two systems (ie Kleemann and AMG) will have the same problems. IT turns out from this forum that they do indeed have the same problems.
.........one way to tell that you have a water pump problem is a subtle loss of power. But because these cars have so much power, such a small loss may not be detected. A second way to tell is by the sound of the s/c........when the water pump fails, their is a subtle grinding noise that experienced mechanics can detect by listening to the engine with a stetescope. this is by far the earlist way to tell. Later on, the noise can become audible to the naked ear.
.............waterpumps are relatively cheap to replace. They cost about $600. The problem is that if the water pump fail;ure is not detected early, it can lead to failure of the s/c itself which is quite expensive.
.............In North America, you are lucky if your MB dealer mechanic knows what a water pump is, let alone be able to diagnose it with a stetescope. If their is no fault code on the computer, they give you the customary blank stare. In summary, water pump failure is something that owners of cars with AMG s/c and and/or the almost identical Kleemann s/c should be vigilant for.
Ted
Just to clarify- There are two version of the KLEEMANN SC system, one has a mechanical water pump, the later version an electric one. We moved to this design primarily for drive axle reasons, not water pump reasons.
The system on your CLK has the mechanical one, the system on your G has the electric.
Its interesting/important to note that the MB electric pump is a 19 liter per minute pump that is (originally) used in the heating system for "stationary heating" use. It was never designed to run constantly to the best of my knowledge.
The electric pump in the Gen 2 KLEEMANN system is a 90 liter per minute pump with a 100% duty cycle and a 22,000 hour rating MTBF.
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300ce
What application/chassis is this that you have 2 Kleemann cars on?
How many miles when the water pump failed? Was the issue resolved? How did it get resolved?
..........The first car is a CLK32K. The second car is a G55K.
.........Both water pump failures were on the CLK32K. The initial failure was around 20,000 miles post s/c. It was resolved completely to my satisfaction between MBautowerks and Kleemann USA. I ended up with a new s/c anda new water pump. The second water pump problem was recently diagnosed by Mbautowerks and I am yet to deal with it, because I am currently swamped by work related issues. Luckily, the diagnosis was made prior to s/c failure. Having a Mbautowerks close by has been an incredible asset.
..........As Kleemann has stated, the design on the water pumps are different and it appears that water pump failures on Kleemann cars are restricted to the V6 application.
Ted
How many miles when the water pump failed? Was the issue resolved? How did it get resolved?
..........The first car is a CLK32K. The second car is a G55K.
.........Both water pump failures were on the CLK32K. The initial failure was around 20,000 miles post s/c. It was resolved completely to my satisfaction between MBautowerks and Kleemann USA. I ended up with a new s/c anda new water pump. The second water pump problem was recently diagnosed by Mbautowerks and I am yet to deal with it, because I am currently swamped by work related issues. Luckily, the diagnosis was made prior to s/c failure. Having a Mbautowerks close by has been an incredible asset.
..........As Kleemann has stated, the design on the water pumps are different and it appears that water pump failures on Kleemann cars are restricted to the V6 application.
Ted
Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 109
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Hi Brandon,
Does it mean that all Kleemann Kompressors (V6 & V8) now come with the electric pumps ?
Thanks
Originally posted by BrandonG
There are two version of the KLEEMANN SC system, one has a mechanical water pump, the later version an electric one. We moved to this design primarily for drive axle reasons, not water pump reasons.
There are two version of the KLEEMANN SC system, one has a mechanical water pump, the later version an electric one. We moved to this design primarily for drive axle reasons, not water pump reasons.
Thanks
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 266
Likes: 1
2003 E55
Originally posted by Ted Baldwin
[B.........one way to tell that you have a water pump problem is a subtle loss of power. But because these cars have so much power, such a small loss may not be detected. A second way to tell is by the sound of the s/c........when the water pump fails, their is a subtle grinding noise that experienced mechanics can detect by listening to the engine with a stetescope. this is by far the earlist way to tell. Later on, the noise can become audible to the naked ear. Ted [/B]
[B.........one way to tell that you have a water pump problem is a subtle loss of power. But because these cars have so much power, such a small loss may not be detected. A second way to tell is by the sound of the s/c........when the water pump fails, their is a subtle grinding noise that experienced mechanics can detect by listening to the engine with a stetescope. this is by far the earlist way to tell. Later on, the noise can become audible to the naked ear. Ted [/B]
Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 133
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From: Puerto Rico
MB E55 2004
Guys:
I got the water pump changed today and I changed the anti freeze coolant for Water Wetter with destilled water. The car feels great, it maintains the punch power even after 20 min of hard driving. In past it lost the intesity after intense driving. I will be doong some test on the car this weekend.
Keep you guys posted.
Regards,
E55 POWER
I got the water pump changed today and I changed the anti freeze coolant for Water Wetter with destilled water. The car feels great, it maintains the punch power even after 20 min of hard driving. In past it lost the intesity after intense driving. I will be doong some test on the car this weekend.
Keep you guys posted.
Regards,
E55 POWER
