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Needswings tweeked manifolds E55

 
Old 12-26-2017, 08:44 AM
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Mercedes SLK 32 AMG
Needswings tweeked manifolds E55

Hi,

Steven here from Berlin / Germany.
anyone using the new tweeked manifolds on the E55 supercharged engine? This could be a step up for you guys running the big boys pullies for example 180 cp or 77 sc where heat is a concern.

http://www.needswings.com/teflon-vel...take-manifolds

Btw I did the "bypass mod" to my SLK32 AMG in the past and saw a huge boost reduction as well (4-5 psi) at peak power on a stacked pulley combination. I think a single bypass should be enough to get the full benefit.

https://34plus2.jimdo.com

IMO most of the restriction comes from the "y-pipe" in front of the the intake manis, same with the E55/SL55/CLS55. After bypassing the cylinder banks the 2 single manifolds are acting as a BIG Plenum - restriction gone. It`s like having two doors open from the y-pipe all the time (instead of one). More volume, better efficiency and the supercharger is even consuming less power due to less heat @ the same pulley ratio. I don`t have the E55 compresor map in my hands but I would guess the gain will be around 10 whp alone from a boost reduction of 5 psi if not even more (lower pressure ratio). And this comes only from the elimination of the superchargers parasitic loss (due to less heat). The main benefit is the lower intake air temperature from the boost reduction.

Would be nice if you share your experience. Let me know what you are thinking about it.


Steven

Last edited by No2fast; 12-26-2017 at 11:58 AM.
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Old 12-26-2017, 12:20 PM
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Still trying to wrap my head around this. So your gaining 10 horsepower and loseing 4-5lb's of boost. Now you can spin the blower back up to the same boost you had making even more power?

I did a similar trick on my Ford Renegade engine welding a larger section to the intake plenum. Saw gains but not a loss in boost.
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Old 12-26-2017, 03:14 PM
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Wait your dropping 4 to 5 psi from this cross over mod???
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Old 12-26-2017, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by oneslow55 View Post
Wait your dropping 4 to 5 psi from this cross over mod???
agreed not really getting this .... i know reducing pressure shows lower boost pressure due to less restriction ... being boost is just a measurement of restriction. Hence why ur boost goes down adding headers but u gain power. But not really getting the whole crossover thing .... would love to see some back to back dynos as im always wanting more power haha.
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Old 12-26-2017, 06:29 PM
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Take a look at the green lines from the E55 compressor map (i copied from the internet):

@14.7 psi boost-->supercharger power loss @ aprx 55 kw (PR 2.0 / Volume flow 26).
@ 9.7 psi boost (-5psi) -->supercharger power loss aprx 40 kw (PR 1.65 / Volume flow 26).
That means a 5 psi pressure gains about 15kw or 20 hp.
These gains are coming only from the parasitic losses (heat) of the supercharger (less boost, same volume flow).
If you change pulley ratios to the limit the gain will be even higher, because the efficiency of the blower will suffer and the green lines will staying closer together.

Yes guys, I know it is hard to believe. I hope I can go deeper into this. You all know you have a supercharger which pumps X amount of air fixed to a given pulley ratio ( twinscrews aka fixed displacement superchargers). A supercharger is an ordinary pump, no more no less. Under best conditions you have the same amount of input and output volume air. But not when adding restrictions to the pump, simple example: imagine a garden water pump. Fixed volume and when changing from 3/4" to 1/2" garden hose you will see a pressure drop at the pump and much more volume at the output. Same with the supercharged engine: intake valves, exhaust, manifiolds etc.are all restrictions to the pump/sc. When removing these restrictions you will see a pressure drop. Btw this happens also when adding headers - you will see a pressure drop.

I am no scientist. Maybe I am wrong. But Needswings would be wrong as well.

Steven

Berlin Germany

Last edited by No2fast; 12-27-2017 at 07:22 AM.
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Old 12-26-2017, 06:35 PM
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I am having trouble believing this... but I am happy to be proven wrong. The engine is the restriction, the intake manifold is only a very small part of the equation, sure more equalised pressure, better cylinder filling efficiency but 4psi, seems a bit exaggerated. The y pipe is hardly a restriction on these cars, nothing like the C32 which was tiny, I could feel the gains after swapping an SL55 one in. You barely drop 1psi with headers for reference and the stock headers have an absolutely tiny outlet, a humongous restriction.
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Old 12-26-2017, 07:24 PM
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I just got off the phone with the owner to get the scoop on this. It's never been dyno tested and he is guessing at 10 hp by seat of the pants feel.
The theory is there but the reduction in boost is hard to believe.
If this where to be the real deal the real power would come from spinning the blower faster to get the boost back which in turn would give you far more power than before.
The cross over is basicly giving you double the volume of air so to speak when the intake valve opens which in turn will produce more power.
I don't know about this........doing ALOT of research and shop talk about the theory.
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Old 12-26-2017, 07:54 PM
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I don't think those hoses are anywhere near large enough to be able act in that way. For reference if you lower the boost through improving the engines volumetric efficiency, you will be making much more power at the lower boost. A 4psi reduction entirely due to this should be the equivalent of 100whp or more, ie 4 lots of headers or throttle bodies. I will wait for the back to back dyno runs.
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Old 12-26-2017, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by tw2 View Post
I don't think those hoses are anywhere near large enough to be able act in that way. For reference if you lower the boost through improving the engines volumetric efficiency, you will be making much more power at the lower boost. A 4psi reduction entirely due to this should be the equivalent of 100whp or more, ie 4 lots of headers or throttle bodies. I will wait for the back to back dyno runs.
completely agree an for reference i just changed from those POS stock manifold with their horrendous 1.6 inch outlet an 1.3 inch primary openings adding my new 1.75 primaries an 3in true collectors an my boost went down by 2.2 psi but feels like 50+ whp was added. Top end is insane and dont seem like i lost any down low. So if you were to see a drop of 4 psi with the above mod thus improving the efficency of the system you would see a lower boost reading but have more whp. An this in turn WOULD allow the blower to be spun faster with less heat buildup. But logs ... dyno runs ... and such would need to be done to prove this an it would equate to ALOT more than 10 whp .... speaking of which your not gunna be able to feel 10 whp.
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Old 12-27-2017, 05:17 AM
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Hi,
thanks for your comments. I am pretty sure there will be a boost drop on the 55 supercharged engines as well. Maybe not 5 psi, but I would bet at least 2-3 psi in general. I you take look at the E55 compressor map a pressure drop from PR 2.0 to 1.8 (2-3psi) means a lower power consumption to the blower (about 10kw or 13 hp). Compressor map found here, watch the green line. https://mbworld.org/forums/attachmen...-lys2300ax.jpg

I had a much better idle on my SLK32 as well. Think of an extra t-pipe on exhaust engines close to the engine. Same happens here with a big t-pipe on the intake side.
You don`t get all the volume out of the blower with a y-pipe feeding to separate sides in pulses. It is definately a restriction to me.
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Old 12-27-2017, 05:17 AM
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its nothing to data log a car before and after if your going to go through the trouble of coming up with a idea like that
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Old 12-27-2017, 05:24 AM
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Originally Posted by 99lightning View Post
its nothing to data log a car before and after if your going to go through the trouble of coming up with a idea like that
Yes, true. Thatīs why I am asking you about your experience. itīs not a big deal logging boost before and after a mod like this.
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Old 12-27-2017, 07:17 AM
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Something like this should never go to market UNTIL it was Dyno proven. You need to have concrete evidence before you make claims. Bottom line is if this setup is true, I would be fabricating some tubes up right now and testing it out because it's one of those ideas of "Wow this is great !! ".
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Old 12-27-2017, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by SICAMG View Post
Something like this should never go to market UNTIL it was Dyno proven. You need to have concrete evidence before you make claims. Bottom line is if this setup is true, I would be fabricating some tubes up right now and testing it out because it's one of those ideas of "Wow this is great !! ".
Correct. But I am not working for Needswings nor have a special relationship to them. I made a similar mod to my SLK32 with great success. I am asking the E55 community because I can catch a SL55 for a good price and would like to know if anyone makes a similar experience like me but on their E55`s cars.. Need to fix some things on the car first but I am always looking for some nice performance addons in advance
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Old 12-27-2017, 08:45 AM
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exactly sicamg, at least have some info something before taking that money. Thats one thing i always hated about this platform yet on a cts v side you can get the real info times 10 on any combo. dont those surge tanks have kinks in them in the back?
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Old 12-27-2017, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by 99lightning View Post
exactly sicamg, at least have some info something before taking that money. Thats one thing i always hated about this platform yet on a cts v side you can get the real info times 10 on any combo. dont those surge tanks have kinks in them in the back?

That’s one thing that made me hate this plateform ,no true data ever provided ,no fuel systems ,no true refined tuning ,and bogus claims on dyno sheets with only numbers showing not actual power band curves fully displayed ..Th stock surge tanks have kinks and small ends
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Old 12-27-2017, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by SICAMG View Post
I just got off the phone with the owner to get the scoop on this. It's never been dyno tested and he is guessing at 10 hp by seat of the pants feel.
The theory is there but the reduction in boost is hard to believe.
If this where to be the real deal the real power would come from spinning the blower faster to get the boost back which in turn would give you far more power than before.
The cross over is basicly giving you double the volume of air so to speak when the intake valve opens which in turn will produce more power.
I don't know about this........doing ALOT of research and shop talk about the theory.
science
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Old 12-27-2017, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by VictoryRoadPerformance View Post
science
haha

But seriously at the very least all they need is an android app, an obd2 dongle and record boost before and after on a graph, no one is going to believe this 4-5psi otherwise. For all we know this was calculated on the flow bench. Obviously a dyno is required but actually logging boost would be a huge start.

Last edited by tw2; 12-27-2017 at 01:57 PM.
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Old 01-05-2018, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by tw2 View Post
haha

But seriously at the very least all they need is an android app, an obd2 dongle and record boost before and after on a graph, no one is going to believe this 4-5psi otherwise. For all we know this was calculated on the flow bench. Obviously a dyno is required but actually logging boost would be a huge start.
anyone have concrete numbers from this setup?
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Old 04-25-2018, 01:43 AM
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Bit of a res, but did any one ever end up trying this and getting real data?
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Old 04-25-2018, 04:36 AM
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Seems as though, most intakes have a plenum and runners. This would in a way create a shared space for the left and right plenum.....hard to imagine Mercedes wouldn't join them if there was as much claimed benefit. That being said, I like surprises. So, some one spend your money and surprise us with some logs.
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Old 04-25-2018, 04:01 PM
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I could see it being a benefit, especially if the end of the surge tank is the biggest bottleneck post-SC because it basically doubles the available piping for a piston to receive air from (Instead of one surge tank after the split, it can get air from both surge tanks still.

Definitely interested in any ones experience
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Old 04-26-2018, 07:22 AM
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As I stated before the theory is there....but they are claiming a HUGE loss of boost from this and that I just can't see. Also that loss combined with a 10 hp increase seems out of whack does it not i?
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Old 04-26-2018, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by SICAMG View Post
As I stated before the theory is there....but they are claiming a HUGE loss of boost from this and that I just can't see. Also that loss combined with a 10 hp increase seems out of whack does it not i?
I completely agree. All the numbers that have been stated both pressure drops and hp have been either total nonsense or guesses. Just hoping maybe some one had pulled the trigger on this on the m113k and could tell us what they actually saw haha.

Last edited by drothgeb; 04-26-2018 at 11:04 AM.
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Old 04-26-2018, 01:51 PM
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Plus if you look at the tubes they are awfully small to feed a cylinder {volume} at 6,000 rpm....maybe down low but up top I just don't see it. But again the theory appears to work.....I guess ?? Who knows.
Unrelated but along the same lines sort of with intake volume:
What I am doing,shot in the dark, is having the two intakes Extrude honed to pick up some air flow so I will let you know what that doe's.
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