DIY: ECUMaster Digital ECU Tuner3 Piggyback
I'm writing this thread to document and share my experience with the ECUMaster DET3 piggyback fuel AND IGNITION controller. It is a piggback controller that intercepts and alters MAP sensor data (to tune fuel) and CPS sensor data (to tune spark) to the ECU. It has 4 aux inputs for 10 bit logging (1 must be used for the MAP sensor though), as well as power outputs that can be used to run various other systems/lightsts/etc based on adjustable criteria. It also has two independent, switchable map sets (which I plan to utilize for pump gas/race gas maps).
Big CON here: This thing does NOT have the ability to log ACTUAL ignition timing compared to TDC. Currently I'm working on a way to tie knock detection into an analog input that I will utilize for tuning timing which I will discuss further down. Purchasing: I got this on E-Bay, international sellers, for a grand total of $280. If you buy it from a US vendor it will be $450. I also tried to purchase from an oversees store for even less who refunded my order and said US sales had to go through ECUMasterUSA or an authorized vendor. So if you want to buy this and save $150, wait the two weeks(for international shipping) and buy it on E-Bay ;-) Installation: The DET3 user manual is here and contains a lot of good info, get familiar with it.
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbw...4dc1014787.png
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbw...f64a90844c.pnghttps://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbw...901f40cd23.png
Software Setup:
Tuning: So tuning with this is pretty straight foreward. The logging feature is pretty user friendly. Logs are ran real time and can be saved, and old ones loaded to review at any time. A very nice feature is the "ai1" "ai2" "ai3" and "ai4" buttons at the top of the DET3 actually takes info from the current log and lays it over top of which ever table you are currently looking at. So if you want to see exactly where your wideband AFR was recorded on the current log you can overlay that data to see which cells you want to adjust. Here is the overlay view: https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbw...eabe1e3d34.png I spent an hour ish playing yesterday (some where safe-ish) and I was able to fine tune fuel to get me pretty close to 12 across the board. What I found is I was knocking and had to pull too much timing. My car "felt" much better with extra fuel (low 11s) and more timing. I didn't want to run 12afr and less timing anyways but I did want to test that I could do it. Here is my fuel map putting me in the low 11s vs the fuel map putting me in the high 11s and the logs, and these are third gear runs: I believe a good way to test your own tuning changes would be to use the "Road Dyno" function. You have to put in some gearing and aerodynamics info which I haven't messed with yet, but any recorded log you can choose start and end points and send to the road dyno graph. Comparing that graph with before and after changes may be a good tool to utilize. Low 11s: Note: each "unit" of change on the fuel map is a certain amount of voltage (adjustable in the aux output menu I talked about earlier) that is hidden from or added to the map sensor signal that actually goes to the ECU. https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbw...6b93a64ca4.png https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbw...4c4292cddd.png High 11s map: https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbw...3eb7e29257.png https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbw...c21d3b7aa7.png Timing is a little bit tricky without a good way to monitor for detonation. Right now I'm using the graphing feature in torque. It's still very easy to see if you have detonation, but what you can't do is tune timing across the RPM range because you can't really tell what POINTS have detonation because the resolution is garbage. The goal would be to have a high resolution knock logging and squeek out as much timing throughout the whole RPM range without knocking. All I'm doing right now is really making adjustments to the entire MAP while keeping an eye on torque for knock. Here is two pulls on torque 30 seconds apart, the first one with knock and the second one after I pulled 1 degree of timing out across the board: EDIT: Timing retards function in 6 degree increments in the software! Adding timing is 1 degree at a time but for some reason there is a note in the manual that I missed previously that states when retarding timing the reduction will not actually be 1* but the amount of timing of a tooth on the fly wheel (60 teeth, 360* of timing, hence the 6 degrees of retard). 3rd gear with erratic timing due to knock retard: https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbw...8aa7231ba4.jpg 3rd gear pull about 30 seconds later after pulling 1 degree of timing across the board on the DET3: https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbw...54fc3bc889.jpg Note: The timing you actually see via OBDII is the FOOLED timing being sent to the ECU. So the value you see logged here is actually +/- what ever you have added into your timing MAP on DET3. Real Time Knock Logging Solution: I found a device called knocksenseMS(link to website here for more info) that can be wired in with the factory knock sensors. It has adjustable sensitivity and comes with both an LED indicating light as well as a 0-5V analog output that can be wired into the DET3 to (hopefully) precisely log knock and allow for some much better timing tuning instead of flat timing across the board. I have already made the purchase and it is on the way. After I'm able to install and test I'll provide some more info about it here. There are two versions, the standard version does not have the analog output, but the MS(megasquirt) version does. Edit: Got this up and running. Works great, tapped into my even side knock sensor wire, and it converts it to a 0-5V output with adjustable sensitivity. Doing some testing, if your timing is fuel quality limited (based on knock) I don't know that there is really much use for this. It seams that the ECU is very fast in responding to knock and adjusting timing accordingly. But, I have this, and it works, but unless I do some race gas tuning and get to the point where i can add more timing than what my tune is calling for I don't think it really provides much value. |
I would bet that timing changes with MAP (in does in every other engine on the planet). Just keep that in mind. Generically one would expect a higher MAP reading to correlate to less timing but unless someone knows the original calibration it's tough to say.
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Added a wiring diagram.
Originally Posted by kevm14
(Post 8130763)
I would bet that timing changes with MAP (in does in every other engine on the planet). Just keep that in mind. Generically one would expect a higher MAP reading to correlate to less timing but unless someone knows the original calibration it's tough to say.
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Great write up and thread, thanks for taking the time and effort to create this. Awesome work!! :urock:
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Added some info on actually tuning with it.
Something strange did happen yesterday, the car shut off on me twice. Both times it was when coming to a stop in a parking lot right as the RPMS hit kind of the low point it would idle at the car just died. Turned right back on no issues, no cells. I may try switching the CPS wires to shielded wire in case it's noise on the wires causing some issues. The knocksense I just bought is coming with a bunch of shielded wire so maybe I'll use some of the extra. I may also try turning up idle RPM via star and see if it happens any more (maybe just a bandaid I know). It only happened twice during several hours of stop and go traffic and lots of playing yesterday.
Originally Posted by C32owner
(Post 8131949)
Great write up and thread, thanks for taking the time and effort to create this. Awesome work!! :urock:
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Originally Posted by drothgeb
(Post 8132586)
Added some info on actually tuning with it.
Something strange did happen yesterday, the car shut off on me twice. Both times it was when coming to a stop in a parking lot right as the RPMS hit kind of the low point it would idle at the car just died. Turned right back on no issues, no cells. I may try switching the CPS wires to shielded wire in case it's noise on the wires causing some issues. The knocksense I just bought is coming with a bunch of shielded wire so maybe I'll use some of the extra. I may also try turning up idle RPM via star and see if it happens any more (maybe just a bandaid I know). It only happened twice during several hours of stop and go traffic and lots of playing yesterday. Thanks! Also I forgot to mention in the aux output settings there is "Analog output max" which is what you would adjust if you needed to have a functional MAP clamp. |
Originally Posted by ctravis595
(Post 8132604)
i just commented on your thread in the Facebook groups, but I wanted to add that I recommend some way to check fuel pressure. I think you may find inadequate flow is causing the car to die after slowing down. I’ve seen this happen with clogged fuel filters and failing pumps
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Originally Posted by drothgeb
(Post 8132586)
Added some info on actually tuning with it.
Something strange did happen yesterday, the car shut off on me twice. Both times it was when coming to a stop in a parking lot right as the RPMS hit kind of the low point it would idle at the car just died. Turned right back on no issues, no cells. I may try switching the CPS wires to shielded wire in case it's noise on the wires causing some issues. The knocksense I just bought is coming with a bunch of shielded wire so maybe I'll use some of the extra. I may also try turning up idle RPM via star and see if it happens any more (maybe just a bandaid I know). It only happened twice during several hours of stop and go traffic and lots of playing yesterday.Thanks! Also I forgot to mention in the aux output settings there is "Analog output max" which is what you would adjust if you needed to have a functional MAP clamp. |
Hey every one, couple of updates here!
Car is running great, no issues what so ever with the DET3 since install, very functional and definitely zero regret in going this rout. Self tuning my fuel work great. The shut off when coming to a stop did not happen another time after posting that it happened a couple times after initial install. Maybe it has to do with the adaptive crank signal or something along those lines, I can't really say but it has not happened again. I had planned to switch my crank signal wires to shielded wires but didn't end up needing to. I found out that the timing retard function of the DET3 actually pulls 6 degrees of timing per -1 placed in the software. There are some notes in the manual that I missed at first that the timing retard function will reduce timing in increments of how ever many degrees are on the fly wheel teeth (60 teeth, 360* of timing, 6 degrees of timing actually pulled per -1 in the software). However adding timing works normally 1 degree at a time. So it's best too have a tune with too little of timing and use the software to add timing as needed because there is much less control in retarding timing. I got the knock sensor adapter I linked above working. The value it provides is debatable because it has a manual sensitivity adjustment though, so how much value it provides is going to depend on how the user sets the sensitivity. However it does consistently convert the knock sensor signal to a 0-5V output that lights up and LED and is logged in the software consistently. I have also done some test runs of the launch control (rev limit for drag racing, not traction control). It works by retarding timing by an adjustable amount and adding fuel for some extra cooling (since ignition is happening with the exh valve open already, get some flames in the headers probably). I figured the ECU would freak out and die when I tried to use this, but it did not! The only issue was breaks having trouble holding the tires. Could just be a function of fine tuning where the timing retard needs to be set, but I also got the idea from cnterline to wire the SC clutch in series with the launch control so there wouldn't be boost while trying to use the function. So now the idea is to wire a lunch control switch, in series with the break switch, to the DET3 to activate launch control as well as a relay controlling the SC clutch. I'm working on getting this sorted out and hopefully soon be able to share some feedback of the first E55 using launch control haha. Unfortunately the drag strip doesn't open until March here so 60ft testing will be a ways out. |
Outstanding! Mine will be here in the next week or two (coming from Poland) and I can't wait to get started. I will be using the parametric output for meth activation and using my meth on off switch to switch maps when I have the meth activated. Then going to 50/50 and see what reduced fuel and a little timing will do.
I will also fine tune the main tune and if everything goes well I can send it to my tuner to hard code. With the dyno function even if the number are off the corresponding gain/loss should get very close to if not right on a dyno tune. Really appreciate the time this took and the experimentation. I love that this platform can still see improvements 17 years later! |
Drothgeb where is the Tach signal actually coming from ?
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Originally Posted by SICAMG
(Post 8232455)
Drothgeb where is the Tach signal actually coming from ?
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Oh OK. Was just wondering as I am switching Nitrous controllers and need a tach input and wasn't sure.
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Originally Posted by SICAMG
(Post 8232591)
Oh OK. Was just wondering as I am switching Nitrous controllers and need a tach input and wasn't sure.
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Mine is in! Thanks to drothgeb for the write up and help with definition files. No major issues installing .I did go a little different as I am using the parametric output for my meth system.
Currently logs are limited as I can not get any traction in 3rd gear. At all. Need to find a better spot to get some good logs. I found that traction control will close the throttle body as well as killing timing. I don't have the secondary logged anymore but I would think looking at the boost that i is opening up as well. Interesting to see how the system works to keep traction. Hard to tune though. |
OK so.....this system is actually starting from the existing tune already in the ECU and your building from that correct ?
Meaning if my current tune has 25* timing I am working off of that in either direction. |
Originally Posted by SICAMG
(Post 8233383)
OK so.....this system is actually starting from the existing tune already in the ECU and your building from that correct ?
Meaning if my current tune has 25* timing I am working off of that in either direction. I am looking more to use it to tune for 50/50 water meth. When i switch meth system on it changes maps so i can dial it in a little better.. Ability to fine tune current tune as well.. i have the dyno tool set up close but really im looking for relative change. But with no traction it is tough as a lot goes into esp. |
Originally Posted by seanol
(Post 8233387)
Exactly. But timing retard is 6 degrees per unit. Advance is 1 degree. So if you need to remove timing it is a big jump.
I am looking more to use it to tune for 50/50 water meth. When i switch meth system on it changes maps so i can dial it in a little better.. Ability to fine tune current tune as well.. i have the dyno tool set up close but really im looking for relative change. But with no traction it is tough as a lot goes into esp. |
Wow. Self tuning, possible launch control, knock sensitivity adjustment and conversion to speed density for us Bosch 2.8 guys all for under $500? I am seriously interested now
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I found something interesting Sean. An ethanol sensor with a 0-5v output. This could be used to modify timing on a linear scale(or how ever you wanted to set the scale) based on ethanol percent for ethanol mixes.
Now that you mentioned it I'm thinking about how much ethanol the stock fuel system can handle as well. Apparently the M157 EC tunes an E40 tune is very common because the factory fuel system can't supply E85. This one is sold out but I bet there are others that are similar: https://getyours.com/product/ethanol...-temp-display/ |
Originally Posted by drothgeb
(Post 8238090)
I found something interesting Sean. An ethanol sensor with a 0-5v output. This could be used to modify timing on a linear scale(or how ever you wanted to set the scale) based on ethanol percent for ethanol mixes.
Now that you mentioned it I'm thinking about how much ethanol the stock fuel system can handle as well. Apparently the M157 EC tunes an E40 tune is very common because the factory fuel system can't supply E85. This one is sold out but I bet there are others that are similar: https://getyours.com/product/ethanol...-temp-display/ Also got the software to run on my Win10 tablet so I can have it displayed on my cd adapter in front of the radio. Makes dialing it in a little easier. Just need some traction! |
Originally Posted by seanol
(Post 8238095)
I thought of that as well. For now I will keep to meth but once I can get some parts to remove the restriction in the fuel lines I think it is more doable. With 630cc injectors and no restriction I should be able to keep up with fuel demand. I think if I can find a way to just change the line to remove the restriction it would help out a lot.
Also got the software to run on my Win10 tablet so I can have it displayed on my cd adapter in front of the radio. Makes dialing it in a little easier. Just need some traction! |
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Just ordered the det3 kit for my twin turbo 113 build, I will be using raceiq cams, lower compression, bigger injectors, etc. I will try to report back as I go, I will be starting very conservatively… I understand adding and subtracting fueling for a safe afr, and a general sense of how ignition timing works, but I’m unsure how the tuning ties into cam selection
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Originally Posted by drothgeb
(Post 8130716)
I'm writing this thread to document and share my experience with the ECUMaster DET3 piggyback fuel AND IGNITION controller. It is a piggback controller that intercepts and alters MAP sensor data (to tune fuel) and CPS sensor data (to tune spark) to the ECU. It has 4 aux inputs for 10 bit logging (1 must be used for the MAP sensor though), as well as power outputs that can be used to run various other systems/lightsts/etc based on adjustable criteria. It also has two independent, switchable map sets (which I plan to utilize for pump gas/race gas maps).
Big CON here: This thing does NOT have the ability to log ACTUAL ignition timing compared to TDC. Currently I'm working on a way to tie knock detection into an analog input that I will utilize for tuning timing which I will discuss further down. Purchasing: I got this on E-Bay, international sellers, for a grand total of $280. If you buy it from a US vendor it will be $450. I also tried to purchase from an oversees store for even less who refunded my order and said US sales had to go through ECUMasterUSA or an authorized vendor. So if you want to buy this and save $150, wait the two weeks(for international shipping) and buy it on E-Bay ;-) Installation: The DET3 user manual is here and contains a lot of good info, get familiar with it.
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbw...4dc1014787.png
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbw...f64a90844c.pnghttps://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbw...901f40cd23.png
Software Setup:
Tuning: So tuning with this is pretty straight foreward. The logging feature is pretty user friendly. Logs are ran real time and can be saved, and old ones loaded to review at any time. A very nice feature is the "ai1" "ai2" "ai3" and "ai4" buttons at the top of the DET3 actually takes info from the current log and lays it over top of which ever table you are currently looking at. So if you want to see exactly where your wideband AFR was recorded on the current log you can overlay that data to see which cells you want to adjust. Here is the overlay view: https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbw...eabe1e3d34.png I spent an hour ish playing yesterday (some where safe-ish) and I was able to fine tune fuel to get me pretty close to 12 across the board. What I found is I was knocking and had to pull too much timing. My car "felt" much better with extra fuel (low 11s) and more timing. I didn't want to run 12afr and less timing anyways but I did want to test that I could do it. Here is my fuel map putting me in the low 11s vs the fuel map putting me in the high 11s and the logs, and these are third gear runs: I believe a good way to test your own tuning changes would be to use the "Road Dyno" function. You have to put in some gearing and aerodynamics info which I haven't messed with yet, but any recorded log you can choose start and end points and send to the road dyno graph. Comparing that graph with before and after changes may be a good tool to utilize. Low 11s: Note: each "unit" of change on the fuel map is a certain amount of voltage (adjustable in the aux output menu I talked about earlier) that is hidden from or added to the map sensor signal that actually goes to the ECU. https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbw...6b93a64ca4.png https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbw...4c4292cddd.png High 11s map: https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbw...3eb7e29257.png https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbw...c21d3b7aa7.png Timing is a little bit tricky without a good way to monitor for detonation. Right now I'm using the graphing feature in torque. It's still very easy to see if you have detonation, but what you can't do is tune timing across the RPM range because you can't really tell what POINTS have detonation because the resolution is garbage. The goal would be to have a high resolution knock logging and squeek out as much timing throughout the whole RPM range without knocking. All I'm doing right now is really making adjustments to the entire MAP while keeping an eye on torque for knock. Here is two pulls on torque 30 seconds apart, the first one with knock and the second one after I pulled 1 degree of timing out across the board: EDIT: Timing retards function in 6 degree increments in the software! Adding timing is 1 degree at a time but for some reason there is a note in the manual that I missed previously that states when retarding timing the reduction will not actually be 1* but the amount of timing of a tooth on the fly wheel (60 teeth, 360* of timing, hence the 6 degrees of retard). 3rd gear with erratic timing due to knock retard: https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbw...8aa7231ba4.jpg 3rd gear pull about 30 seconds later after pulling 1 degree of timing across the board on the DET3: https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbw...54fc3bc889.jpg Note: The timing you actually see via OBDII is the FOOLED timing being sent to the ECU. So the value you see logged here is actually +/- what ever you have added into your timing MAP on DET3. Real Time Knock Logging Solution: I found a device called knocksenseMS(link to website here for more info) that can be wired in with the factory knock sensors. It has adjustable sensitivity and comes with both an LED indicating light as well as a 0-5V analog output that can be wired into the DET3 to (hopefully) precisely log knock and allow for some much better timing tuning instead of flat timing across the board. I have already made the purchase and it is on the way. After I'm able to install and test I'll provide some more info about it here. There are two versions, the standard version does not have the analog output, but the MS(megasquirt) version does. Edit: Got this up and running. Works great, tapped into my even side knock sensor wire, and it converts it to a 0-5V output with adjustable sensitivity. Doing some testing, if your timing is fuel quality limited (based on knock) I don't know that there is really much use for this. It seams that the ECU is very fast in responding to knock and adjusting timing accordingly. But, I have this, and it works, but unless I do some race gas tuning and get to the point where i can add more timing than what my tune is calling for I don't think it really provides much value. |
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