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well i installed bosch 630cc injectors on my previously tuned m113k yesterday and i was going to take the car on a recovery truck to my tuner to tune it for the new injectors. and out of curiosity, i started the car .. the car started fine and for 5 minites the AFR wa about 11.5 then it got back to 14.5 and O2 sensors was reading fine ( between 0.2 and 0.8) so i thought to give it a little test drive around the block ... the car seemed completely normal and AFR was exactly like before the injectors !!!! so anyway i thought let me push it a bit ( half throttle ) . again got 12PSI and AFR is around 11.5( abit richer then normal which is 12.5) again very weird!! .. so i pushed full throttle and its 10.5 AFR and car seems very fine !!!!!!! HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE ?!!!!! ANY THOUGHTS ??
ON A SIDE NOTE : MY CAR MODES ARE :
- 180CP .
- 84 MM supercharger pulley
- secondary cat delete
- bosch 010 pump
- split cooling
- methanol injection ( using water ONLY no methanol ).
well i installed bosch 630cc injectors on my previously tuned m113k yesterday and i was going to take the car on a recovery truck to my tuner to tune it for the new injectors. and out of curiosity, i started the car .. the car started fine and for 5 minites the AFR wa about 11.5 then it got back to 14.5 and O2 sensors was reading fine ( between 0.2 and 0.8) so i thought to give it a little test drive around the block ... the car seemed completely normal and AFR was exactly like before the injectors !!!! so anyway i thought let me push it a bit ( half throttle ) . again got 12PSI and AFR is around 11.5( abit richer then normal which is 12.5) again very weird!! .. so i pushed full throttle and its 10.5 AFR and car seems very fine !!!!!!! HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE ?!!!!! ANY THOUGHTS ??
ON A SIDE NOTE : MY CAR MODES ARE :
- 180CP .
- 84 MM supercharger pulley
- secondary cat delete
- bosch 010 pump
- split cooling
- methanol injection ( using water ONLY no methanol ).
speed density is a hell of a thing isn't it. since no MAF is used its easier and safer for the ECU to adapt quickly, its just matching fuel to the air seen. I would go ham on it until its tuned, but unlike an MAF metered car you can drive to the tuner.
speed density is a hell of a thing isn't it. since no MAF is used its easier and safer for the ECU to adapt quickly, its just matching fuel to the air seen. I would go ham on it until its tuned, but unlike an MAF metered car you can drive to the tuner.
i did go to the tuner yesterday but he only changed the dead time at 10V from 1.2 ms to 1.1 ms that is all !!! sounds very weird to me !
he also told me that in his car he always set them to the max which is 3 ms !!! any thoughts?
The ECU may be able to calibrate with narrowband oxygen sensor feedback in closed loop mode (ie idle and low throttle input). But it should run very rich in open loop mode as it uses fuel tables to determine the injector opening times which are calibrated to a different sized injector. If your previous injectors were 550cc then it wouldn't be a huge difference but it will definitely be off if you go WOT. From stock injectors the difference will be a lot more. The ECU cannot calibrate to new sized injectors in open loop so don't get on it, it can adjust mild fuel trims over time but it isn't self learning using a wideband. Both speed density and airflow metered systems will behave in the same way to injector changes, alpha N also not that this is used often.
The ECU may be able to calibrate with narrowband oxygen sensor feedback in closed loop mode (ie idle and low throttle input). But it should run very rich in open loop mode as it uses fuel tables to determine the injector opening times which are calibrated to a different sized injector. If your previous injectors were 550cc then it wouldn't be a huge difference but it will definitely be off if you go WOT. From stock injectors the difference will be a lot more. The ECU cannot calibrate to new sized injectors in open loop so don't get on it, it can adjust mild fuel trims over time but it isn't self learning using a wideband. Both speed density and airflow metered systems will behave in the same way to injector changes, alpha N also not that this is used often.
what u r saying make perfect scene to me . i dont know what to do know !! i pushed full throttle today and i felt the car is not normal !! . what should i tell him ?
what u r saying make perfect scene to me . i dont know what to do know !! i pushed full throttle today and i felt the car is not normal !! . what should i tell him ?
Just get a retune. If it is on the dyno then get them to check all the AFR's at all rpm and throttle positions and adjust fuel tables and ignition timing as necessary. If it is a canned tune via eurocharged or somewhere else then they can adjust the tune accordingly for you to upload based on your injector size and other mods. If it is close, then drive easy, it will run rich not lean so not especially unsafe, worse case would be destroy cats and foul spark plugs. If it is a decent distance then put it on a truck.
Just get a retune. If it is on the dyno then get them to check all the AFR's at all rpm and throttle positions and adjust fuel tables and ignition timing as necessary. If it is a canned tune via eurocharged or somewhere else then they can adjust the tune accordingly for you to upload based on your injector size and other mods. If it is close, then drive easy, it will run rich not lean so not especially unsafe, worse case would be destroy cats and foul spark plugs. If it is a decent distance then put it on a truck.
my tuner is actually doing on desk tuning .which i have no idea how its done , and i'm not sure if he is aware of the tables am talking about (( this time he just adjusted the dead time with DAS thats it ! .
my tuner is actually doing on desk tuning .which i have no idea how its done , and i'm not sure if he is aware of the tables am talking about (( this time he just adjusted the dead time with DAS thats it ! .
No offense your retune should have been done at the same time as the new injectors,tunes for these cars are dirt cheap.I personally would rescale them and not hoping the ecu adjusts which it can't at times.
my tuner is actually doing on desk tuning .which i have no idea how its done , and i'm not sure if he is aware of the tables am talking about (( this time he just adjusted the dead time with DAS thats it ! .
I am not aware of any tuning done via DAS but maybe he is onto something, or maybe regular tuners also use similar methods via their tunes. Just for interest, you can do a small amount of changes that would be done in DAS via OBD2 tunes but most more advanced things are limited. Ie you can turn off the O2 sensor codes for having no cats but you can't get rid of the oxygen heater circuit code without DAS/xentry.
Most retunes consist of a single file uploaded via laptop in 10-15 minutes. Eurocharged, raceIQ and oe tuning do this. They have several tunes that they developed on the dyno with various mods with a higher margin of safety added in for car to car variation ("canned tunes"). They can also do datalogging using street tuning, same thing but you log your AFR's, ignition etc while driving around, email the logs and they will adjust the maps in a stepwise fashion until they are spot on with you loading an updated file a few times in a row until it is perfect. Not as good as dynotuning but most of the way there. I have had 4 canned eurocharged tunes on 3 different cars and they have been spot on when tested on the dyno.
I am not aware of any tuning done via DAS but maybe he is onto something, or maybe regular tuners also use similar methods via their tunes. Just for interest, you can do a small amount of changes that would be done in DAS via OBD2 tunes but most more advanced things are limited. Ie you can turn off the O2 sensor codes for having no cats but you can't get rid of the oxygen heater circuit code without DAS/xentry.
Most retunes consist of a single file uploaded via laptop in 10-15 minutes. Eurocharged, raceIQ and oe tuning do this. They have several tunes that they developed on the dyno with various mods with a higher margin of safety added in for car to car variation ("canned tunes"). They can also do datalogging using street tuning, same thing but you log your AFR's, ignition etc while driving around, email the logs and they will adjust the maps in a stepwise fashion until they are spot on with you loading an updated file a few times in a row until it is perfect. Not as good as dynotuning but most of the way there. I have had 4 canned eurocharged tunes on 3 different cars and they have been spot on when tested on the dyno.
Nothing beats a street tune. Remember ,you drive on the street not a dyno the street dyno will yield true results and true dial in to the ecu.
I am not aware of any tuning done via DAS but maybe he is onto something, or maybe regular tuners also use similar methods via their tunes. Just for interest, you can do a small amount of changes that would be done in DAS via OBD2 tunes but most more advanced things are limited. Ie you can turn off the O2 sensor codes for having no cats but you can't get rid of the oxygen heater circuit code without DAS/xentry.
Most retunes consist of a single file uploaded via laptop in 10-15 minutes. Eurocharged, raceIQ and oe tuning do this. They have several tunes that they developed on the dyno with various mods with a higher margin of safety added in for car to car variation ("canned tunes"). They can also do datalogging using street tuning, same thing but you log your AFR's, ignition etc while driving around, email the logs and they will adjust the maps in a stepwise fashion until they are spot on with you loading an updated file a few times in a row until it is perfect. Not as good as dynotuning but most of the way there. I have had 4 canned eurocharged tunes on 3 different cars and they have been spot on when tested on the dyno.
i was really happy with my tune with my previous mods before i install the 84mm pulley and the injectors . the car was very stable. no unexpected behaviours on the idel nor on cruising . my time was 8.9S (100 to 200) . but now the car feels very weird on idle and on engine braking. also i did a pull yesterday and i got 9.1s from 100 to 200 !!!
i got a worse time with smaller pulley and the injectors . i assume the AFR might be the reason for that . i was 10.8 on full throttle at 6600RPM . i think i'm now more richer ( in 9 or something) i will do a test for AFR today with innovate wide band and will see where is my AFR stands.
Nothing beats a street tune. Remember ,you drive on the street not a dyno the street dyno will yield true results and true dial in to the ecu.
True but a proper load holding dyno session will get the job done very reliably. I did that with my other car, we went through various loads at various rpm's to make sure the AFR's were perfect all over the board.
Originally Posted by ls1_mast
i was really happy with my tune with my previous mods before i install the 84mm pulley and the injectors . the car was very stable. no unexpected behaviours on the idel nor on cruising . my time was 8.9S (100 to 200) . but now the car feels very weird on idle and on engine braking. also i did a pull yesterday and i got 9.1s from 100 to 200 !!!
i got a worse time with smaller pulley and the injectors . i assume the AFR might be the reason for that . i was 10.8 on full throttle at 6600RPM . i think i'm now more richer ( in 9 or something) i will do a test for AFR today with innovate wide band and will see where is my AFR stands.
Sometimes it is better to leave a good setup alone. You probably have way more heat now which is hurting performance. And your tune is likely very far off.
True but a proper load holding dyno session will get the job done very reliably. I did that with my other car, we went through various loads at various rpm's to make sure the AFR's were perfect all over the board.
Sometimes it is better to leave a good setup alone. You probably have way more heat now which is hurting performance. And your tune is likely very far off.
my intake temps are almost the same . +2 degrees Celsius maybe.. no i have no heat sook issue i'm using torque on my android car screen 100% of the time so i can monitor everything and my temps are really good. i'm sure intake temps are not the issue here
Just get a retune. If it is on the dyno then get them to check all the AFR's at all rpm and throttle positions and adjust fuel tables and ignition timing as necessary. If it is a canned tune via eurocharged or somewhere else then they can adjust the tune accordingly for you to upload based on your injector size and other mods. If it is close, then drive easy, it will run rich not lean so not especially unsafe, worse case would be destroy cats and foul spark plugs. If it is a decent distance then put it on a truck.
FWIW, The SLR produced 617 hp out of the box. Yes there are significant differences from the block, heads intercoolers, cams, fuel coolers and more, but I can confirm that when the proprietary SLR 6 port injectors are added to a well tuned 113k the results were quite impressive. Spray patterns and atomization are greatly improved which also reduces the temperature of the spray. These blue wonders were pricey 12 years ago and as I recall MB would only provide them to SLR owners. I do not believe they were ever available from Bosch.
Maybe you need a new tuner. All injectors require tunes.
to be honest with u i thought about it but i never used a canned tune. and this guy offered to do it for a good price. this is my first Mercedes. i always had American cars and i used to tune it my self by HP tunner.
if you have any information ( in details ) about ur tuning options pls PM me.
to be honest with u i thought about it but i never used a canned tune. and this guy offered to do it for a good price. this is my first Mercedes. i always had American cars and i used to tune it my self by HP tunner.
if you have any information ( in details ) about ur tuning options pls PM me.
ok , i logged my AFR yesterday with innovate vide band and its as follows :
idle 650RPM:14.2 to 14.5
cruising 1500RPM 14.2 to 14.5
full throttle 3500RPM 10.2 to 10.3
4500RPM 10.0 to 10.1
5500RPM 9.8 to 10.0
6500RPM 9.8
FWIW, The SLR produced 617 hp out of the box. Yes there are significant differences from the block, heads intercoolers, cams, fuel coolers and more, but I can confirm that when the proprietary SLR 6 port injectors are added to a well tuned 113k the results were quite impressive. Spray patterns and atomization are greatly improved which also reduces the temperature of the spray. These blue wonders were pricey 12 years ago and as I recall MB would only provide them to SLR owners. I do not believe they were ever available from Bosch.
FWIW, The SLR produced 617 hp out of the box. Yes there are significant differences from the block, heads intercoolers, cams, fuel coolers and more, but I can confirm that when the proprietary SLR 6 port injectors are added to a well tuned 113k the results were quite impressive. Spray patterns and atomization are greatly improved which also reduces the temperature of the spray. These blue wonders were pricey 12 years ago and as I recall MB would only provide them to SLR owners. I do not believe they were ever available from Bosch.
I know that the slr injectors ate great , there is no doubt this is true . Very reliable injectors . Here is a picture of the 630cc bosch injectors tip
I know that the slr injectors ate great , there is no doubt this is true . Very reliable injectors . Here is a picture of the 630cc bosch injectors tip
Notwithstanding the 6 ports, a closer look at the SLR injector reveals subtle design differences. While my Queen of Stealth has never been on the rollers, the immediate increase in performance was not imaginary.
02-26-2021, 10:40 AM
bosch 630cc on m113k without tune ?!!!!!!
so anyway i thought let me push it a bit ( half throttle ) . again got 12PSI and AFR is around 11.5( abit richer then normal which is 12.5) again very weird!! .. so i pushed full throttle and its 10.5 AFR and car seems very fine !!!!!!!
HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE ?!!!!! ANY THOUGHTS ??
