Belmondo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talos
There are also hundreds of "horror stories" for the S-Class... every once in awhile, you get a bad apple when you buy German.


Plus W220 may be an apple, while new 7 is nothing more than an ugly fruit at your local Safeway

VelocitE55

E55 is a beautiful car that will leave you in da dust whether you red-line or not . Pure and simple.[/QUOTE]


Agreed.

Talos

Sure, if you drive a slower vehicle...

makken85

First of all, my quote was refering to another quote asking, basically, "what's the point of having a high redline when you can have power at a low rpm." I was simply stating that a lot of M owners perfer to rev their cars rather than have relatively boring acceleration at a low rpm.

It seems to me that a lot of E55 owners derive joy from absolute speed. There's nothing wrong with that, to each his own. A lot of M owners derive more joy from engine speed than absolute speed. and there's nothing wrong with that either. Case in point, I was driving my sister's Acura teg 5spd today through some country back roads, and although I didn't ever exceed 80 or so mph, I sure was having fun running 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gears to their redlines, then perfectly rev matching a downshift to second for that occassional 35mph corner.

This obviously goes back to my original point; 2 different markets. The joy of the E55 is the nondramanic acceleration. The joy of the M is the high reving engine. Neither car is completely superior to the other, they just have superior aspects.

It's like comparing a Citizen Quartz watch to a Zenith mechanical. The citizen quartz, in all likelyhood will keep better time than the Zenith, does that make it a superior watch? Some people buy the watch for accurate time keeping, some buy it because it's a sexy piece of mechanical engineering.

And yes, I agree, the E55 is a beautiful car that can dust most sports cars. Does that make it better than a Ferrari 360? A Porsche 911? A Range Rover? An M5?

W210

Like you said, it all depends on the user. To me, it's not a fantasy car which I only debate on the internet. It is a car I use my hard earned money to buy and having to live with it day in day out.

Personally, I appreciate:

1. comfortable ride
2. effortless performance
3. quietness of the cabin
4. comfort features
5. good ergonomics
6. stealth factor
7. smooth

M5 will probably corner better, but it'll also be louder, harsher, less user friendly.

Everyday when I take things in and out of the trunk, I will miss the MB truck closer, and when it's raining or foggy, I'll miss the fog lights. When I make my dozens of calls, I'll also miss dearly the better phone system in the MB with a proper keypad. When I have to overtake someone, I'll miss the E55 simplicity, no Power, EDC, M, SMG buttons to worry about.

For my daily workhorse, the E55 is a better solution over the M5, 360, 996TT, or whatever. Sure, if I mainly use the car for those mountain roads, I may pick the M5 over the E55, or no, I will pick a proper sports car.

Now, if the M5 looks better inside and out, I may fall for it. As of now, even my wife doesn't understand why I leave a deposit with BMW for such an ugly car. I don't either but hey it's refundable, we'll wait and see I do have an open mind.

BoBcanada

True! + You can make E55 faster just for another couple of thousands.... 550hp+

Bilal

That picture of the Vision SLR shows it has a V8 kompressor engine. Is it correct that the Vision SLR came out in 1999/2000? If so, then the development time of the V8 kompressor motor is very long. Its practically bulletproof.

And reggid, as for AMG not matching the M3 motor, thats nonsense. The reason that the C32 and SLK32 were 3.2 V6 kompressors was because of engine bay space. Now the new SLK55 has the ubiquitous AMG 5.5 V8 motor, and so does the C55. Mercedes wanted to facelift the C-class and its driving behaviour, and AMG wanted to replace its mini pocket rocket 3.2 motor with a big NA V8, which is what the American market prefers, me too as well, and that V8 has the sound they wanted. That is why AMG has done modifications first time to the sheet metal of the C55. That 5.5 displacement also has a reason.

Back in the mid 90's, Mercedes said that they only wanted to use 3 valves per cylinder and SOHCams because it was the only quickfire method to meet emissions regulations. Now Mercedes has invented the new 3.5 V6 with tumbler flaps and whatnot to produce a DOHC 4 vale per cylinder motor.

Mercedes has always been big on torque. Using simple engine development techniques, they have assured big HP and torque numbers through large displacement. As many will agree, an engine with an abundance of torque and high hp, preferably NA, is the ideal engine. My personal favourite for mid engined cars, is AMG's 7.3 V12 motor. Putting this into an E-class is not the best idea in the world, Brabus is already guilty of that. No front engined chassis can support such a heavy motor up front.

With the SL55, AMG was going to take the brand to new heights, through high HP numbers. Now even though AMG can exploit DaimlerC's development budget, they do not make "completely new engines". So with a limiting factor of 3 vales per cylinder and SOHC and a 5.0 V8 configuration engine which is more than a decade old, teh only option was to bore out the cylinders to increase displacement, use different cams, and raise redlines. But even then, the HP of this V8 was always going to be handicapped by its simple architecture. Then after supercharging Mercedes' 3.2 V6 to achieve such high HP, AMG decided with the SL55, that supercharging an already potently tuned and torquey V8 was going to make an immensely powerful engine.

Now with the latest AMG models, I do feel there is a handicap to these cars, their transmission. 7G tronic, hopefully AMG tuned for faster responses will be the perfect compliment to AMG engines. The more gears the better, whether these gears accompany a torqueless motor or one with mountains of pulling power, its always beneficial.

As I said earlier, a NA engine with gobs of good torque and a low redline is the preferred method for AMG and I personally prefer this as well. Now that Mercedes has given AMG a new configuration of engines, AMG has already started development work on a 6.3 V8 with 500hp and 600NM, and yes all naturally aspirated! Now AMG could have squeezed every last drop of the engine to produce this power from smaller displacement, but AMG's age-old philosophy dictates that torque is very important as well as top end power. You may never see a 9000rpm redlining Mercedes engine, because of Mercedes' character and nature of their engines. Also engine longveity is also compromised. Simple, engines don't like revs. A Mercedes after all, has to be a Mercedes, and thats goes for AMG as well, it has to be built to last.

As for BMW, I cannot comment on them because I am not familiar with their philosophy. What I can say is all BMW engines are tuned for high HP from as little a displacement as possible. Any equivalent displacement Mercedes engine will not produce the same HP as a BMW motor, a BMW M motor even more so, only because of Mercedes' simple engine architecture, but this is all changing now due to the move back to 4 valves per cylinder. But torque will always be high up on Mercedes's and AMG's list, so don't expect to see lower displacement NA engines with high HP outputs.

The next generation of Mercedes engines and AMG ones maybe turbocharged for more torque, due to AMG and Mercedes moving away from kompressors, only due to excessive fuel consumption.

I hope this clarifies some issues regarding AMG engines vs. BMW M. Sorry for the long post, and please feel free to correct or add to this post.

makken85

I've always thought that Mercedes wanted their engines to be uber-smooth. I remember reading somewhere that Mercedes kept the 3 valve per cylinder design because it offered a smoother cold start. Keeping with this philosophy, Mercedes should be creating low displacement per cylinder engines (like a 4 litre V12). As well as keeping their engines NA. (FI engines tend to have a non-linear power curve).

As for BMW, they generally tune their cars for most usable power (area under the curve) over highest peak power. BMW M is a bit different though. They're more concern with high end power and driver involvement. BMW M never has (this is BMW M, not BMW as a whole), and probably never will make an FI car, because it goes againist their driver involvement philosophy; simply put, they don't like the lag in turbo systems.

BMW M started out creating actual racecars, The first BMW M car, the M1, was specfically built to beat porsche in racing, and the only reason it was sold to the public was because they needed a few road versions in order for them to actually race it. Since then, all their cars have been road versions of actual racecars. However, the current M5 is the first BMW M to have an engine (the 4.9L V8) not used in a racing league.

Bilal

Thank you for contributing information regarding BMW M. You are absoluetly right BMW M, it can be said, has a very hardcore driver involvement goal. These two companies are utterly different from another. I understand you would like Mercedes to make low displacement/high cylinder engines, but that would make them BMW! Smoothness is also very high up on the agenda, but it is true that Mercedes' current V6 engines are a little coarse at the top end. I know BMW make very smooth powerplants, and the new 5.0 V10 is an amazing pice of engineering, but I feel its 8250rpm redline and super quick gearing is unsuited to a large sedan. But after all it is a BMW "M", so it was always going to be this way or no way.

I am happy that the companies offer us two completely different styles. The wise at mbworld will all accept this as well.

Zlaatan

Couldn't have said it better myself.

BlownV8

The three valve engines were due to emission requirments.

Don't forget that BMW used to turbocharge their cars.

reggid

They still do :p

makken85

only for their diesels... There is a rumor that a turbo'd straight 6 may be coming out, but that's just specuation, and i doubt it will happen.

and yes, BMW did used turbos at a point (remember the 2002 ti? )

BlownV8

I should have said they used to turbocharge their gas engines.

Jon200

there will be a turbocharged I6 for the forthcoming 3 series

reggid

i have heard the same but haven't seen anything to confirm or unconfirm it. There is a need to bridge the gap from 255hp (330ci) - 400hp (m3) though.

makken85

actually, i believe the gap makes the M3 a bit more special.

there really isn't a place for a new turbo engine though. The 2.5L i6 is rumored to be bumped up to ~210ish hp. the 3.0L is now at 258hp, after that we have a 3.5L V8 (so far, not for sale in the US) which has around 270hp, then the 4.4L V8 with 325hp. So I think they have the whole ranged pretty well covered. I for one, would LOVE to see the 3.5L V8 make it over here to the states.

Guest0001

Very informative. Thank you very much. Always enjoy your posts man.

Kain

New M5 info direct from Mr. Donnie Isley of the BMW Performance Center.

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=45904

reggid

the 3.5 and 4.4 aren't and won't be available in the e90 though, so the range is covered but not for the 3 series

makken85

Sorry, i forgot to state this in my first post:

Since BMW is planning to put the 4.0L V8 into the E90 M3, We know a V8 can fit under the hood; If that is the case, then it would easier and probably make more sense for BMW to put one of their V8's into the 3 series than to spend time and money developing a new turbo 6 cylinder.

The turbo 6 would not fit anywhere else either. The 7 series uses the 3.5L and 4.4L V8, and the 6 and 5 series already has the 4.4L V8 in them, so it's a lot more likely they'll fit the 3.5L V8 in there. So the new FI'd 6 would really only make it into the 3 series, and i honestly do not believe BMW would take up a whole new engine unless they could use it across platform lines.

This is all specuation though, but so far, everything I've seen makes a good arguement aganist the development of a turbo'd 6.

Jon200

yeah that's the purpose of the turbo I6 apparently, makes sense though

If it does happen, people who can't afford the M4 V8 will mod the I6T to death to beat it