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Are those not off a W212/218? If they work I'll order those in for sure but I'm not super familiar with the interchangeability on these cars yet. I can make things work/fab some brackets but if those work and are appropriate then I'll just go that route.
Sorry about the delay but it took me a bit to confirm the Brembo bracket number on my caliper (W211 E63). It is in fact a different number than the link I posted. Its number is 19.7661.05. I'm sorry about the confusion and hope this helps.
Sorry about the delay but it took me a bit to confirm the Brembo bracket number on my caliper (W211 E63). It is in fact a different number than the link I posted. Its number is 19.7661.05. I'm sorry about the confusion and hope this helps.
So your car has the 390mm Rotors? Is it possible there are two different brackets with the same part number?
Last edited by crconsulting; Dec 3, 2021 at 03:15 PM.
Yeah, your brackets are W204 C63 AMG. (wider spacing?)
The calipers have the crossover line so they are the older version caliper. But the dimensions are the same.
I believe the brackets that are in that eBay listing (post #17) are for 360mm Rotors and 19.7661.05 is for 390mm Rotors.
They share the same 110mm mounting distance on the steering knuckle.
Let’s confirm machild’s rotor size for further clarification.
Not sure about 212’s but if you run 390mm rotors you may need 19” wheels.
Last edited by crconsulting; Dec 3, 2021 at 03:26 PM.
Sorry about the delay but it took me a bit to confirm the Brembo bracket number on my caliper (W211 E63). It is in fact a different number than the link I posted. Its number is 19.7661.05. I'm sorry about the confusion and hope this helps.
I've ordered in the caliper brackets you linked, as the bolt spacings all seem to match, and I figure offset can be set up with washers worst case and I can get some brackets CNCd after the fact. Appreciate the help guys! After this I've got a trans tune left and then I can start working on power mods.
So your car has the 390mm Rotors? Is it possible there are two different brackets with the same part number?
This reveals that numbers are not always accurate. The picture i'm posting here is of my 360 caliper and it, in fact, has the same Brembo number as the one you posted while also your's notes that it is for a 390mm rotor. You can see where yours is noted as for 390 mine is blank. I have also posted two Centric pics in a Word doc from their data base which shows both the caliper for a 390 rotor (top pic in the attachment) and for the 360 rotor which is the lower pic. Note the difference between the two brackets. Please note, that in their pics they list the caliper for the 390 as number as Cst# 20.9553.01 (whcih is the correct caliper Brembo number) while for the 360 rotor they list Cst# 19.7661.05 which is a Brembo bracket part number and not a caliper part number. And, is also the number I have listed on 360 rotor caliper bracket.
I've ordered in the caliper brackets you linked, as the bolt spacings all seem to match, and I figure offset can be set up with washers worst case and I can get some brackets CNCd after the fact. Appreciate the help guys! After this I've got a trans tune left and then I can start working on power mods.
This reveals that numbers are not always accurate. The picture i'm posting here is of my 360 caliper and it, in fact, has the same Brembo number as the one you posted while also your's notes that it is for a 390mm rotor. You can see where yours is noted as for 390 mine is blank. I have also posted two Centric pics in a Word doc from their data base which shows both the caliper for a 390 rotor (top pic in the attachment) and for the 360 rotor which is the lower pic. Note the difference between the two brackets. Please note, that in their pics they list the caliper for the 390 as number as Cst# 20.9553.01 (whcih is the correct caliper Brembo number) while for the 360 rotor they list Cst# 19.7661.05 which is a Brembo bracket part number and not a caliper part number. And, is also the number I have listed on 360 rotor caliper bracket.
Yeah that is Interesting…
Either Guido had a bad Monday or it’s the same bracket reused which gives different distance depending on knuckle it's used on. It (both 19.7661.05 brackets) look identical.
MB may have repurposed it and took off the “390”. It wouldn't be the first time. I think that is the same bracket they used on R230
I also think the bracket on eBay is correct too, perhaps a later “AMG blessed” design. Maybe different bolt size on steering knuckle? But they look the same size…
20.9747.47 is clearly marked 212 chassis with 360mm brakes and looks identical to the one on the 360mm caliper/bracket in your attached Centric document (19.7661.05). Spacing and height all look correct. The difference being they are pictured with the early caliper with the crossover tube. Whereas 20.9747.47 is coupled with the later caliper without crossover tube. But one would think they all share that 256mm distance to bolt the caliper to the bracket.
Last edited by crconsulting; Dec 3, 2021 at 04:45 PM.
I've ordered in the caliper brackets you linked, as the bolt spacings all seem to match, and I figure offset can be set up with washers worst case and I can get some brackets CNCd after the fact. Appreciate the help guys! After this I've got a trans tune left and then I can start working on power mods.
Originally Posted by machild
Hope it all works out for you.
Come back and let us know when you get them....
Haha, Or if we have to start a go fund me page
Come back and let us know when you get them....
Haha, Or if we have to start a go fund me page
Should have them some time at the end of next week/beginning of the following one. Regardless, I'll figure it out. Managed to get convert an AWD gasser wagon into a RWD oil burner (with no check engine light on to speak of lol), I think I can get this done. Plus as @machild mentioned, would be good to know if the brackets off the 212/218 cars fit the older ones. Brackets appear to be a different design, but if the dimensions all match then that's kind of irrelevant at the end of the day, and it'll be good to know if we have alternative options available to us. I am going to be running 360mm discs (have racingbrake 2pc discs ready to go) and might consider upgrading to the 390s later, but since the car will be driven year round up here (and 19" low profile winters suck to get a hold of) I'll probably stick with 360s/18"s.
Should have them some time at the end of next week/beginning of the following one. Regardless, I'll figure it out. Managed to get convert an AWD gasser wagon into a RWD oil burner (with no check engine light on to speak of lol), I think I can get this done. Plus as @machild mentioned, would be good to know if the brackets off the 212/218 cars fit the older ones. Brackets appear to be a different design, but if the dimensions all match then that's kind of irrelevant at the end of the day, and it'll be good to know if we have alternative options available to us. I am going to be running 360mm discs (have racingbrake 2pc discs ready to go) and might consider upgrading to the 390s later, but since the car will be driven year round up here (and 19" low profile winters suck to get a hold of) I'll probably stick with 360s/18"s.
Sounds like you are good at figuring out problems. If you have not already chased this down, you may want to confirm before you get too far down the road that the knuckle mounting point is set to use the 14M bolt that the E63 caliper requires. I'm fairrly sure some W211 models use different mounting bolt sizes for the caliper. If your current setup uses a 12M caliper mounting bolts then look at simply drilling up to the 14M size as compared to changing out the knuckle. There may well be enough material with the mounting boss to allow for the larger size - but make sure.
Sounds like you are good at figuring out problems. If you have not already chased this down, you may want to confirm before you get too far down the road that the knuckle mounting point is set to use the 14M bolt that the E63 caliper requires. I'm fairrly sure some W211 models use different mounting bolt sizes for the caliper. If your current setup uses a 12M caliper mounting bolts then look at simply drilling up to the 14M size as compared to changing out the knuckle. There may well be enough material with the mounting boss to allow for the larger size - but make sure.
Since I've got the standard CDI knuckles they will be 12mm mounting bolts. I've got a 9/16" drill bit ready to go through them when I'm ready to put on the AMG brakes. Worst case I figure can grab some spare knuckles from a few local yards and just freshen up the ball joints and drill them out on a bench. They are common enough now in yards that it won't be a problem. Appreciate the heads up!
Yes, spacing between bolts is 140mm for R231, W221, W222
I believe that is the spacing for adapter 20.9747.47 for the W218, W212 etc…
though I haven’t verified that. But going off the drawing and visually it looks like a shorter distance. 110mm would be about right.
Also look at the casting number for caliper, it’s 20.A495.04 & 20.A495.03 which is the same across the line on C190’s W218, W212 etc…
Caliper casting number for the R231 W221 is different. They are 20.B282.05 and 20.B282.06
It’s what got me thinking about bore sizes, but I think it’s more about hose placement.
W218/212 caliper&adapter
this might sound a bit off topic but are there any other calipers that use this 140mm center to center spacing for caliper mounting? reason i ask is all 90s and 2000s Hondas use the exact same spacing and I'm looking for a new cheap big brake upgrade, pls let me know as i think this would be of great interest to a lot of other communities
this might sound a bit off topic but are there any other calipers that use this 140mm center to center spacing for caliper mounting? reason i ask is all 90s and 2000s Hondas use the exact same spacing and I'm looking for a new cheap big brake upgrade, pls let me know as i think this would be of great interest to a lot of other communities
No reason you can't use these calipers on a different model car, but you will likely need custom machined brackets.
No reason you can't use these calipers on a different model car, but you will likely need custom machined brackets.
im kinda hoping i can bolt these calipers directly to a honda knuckle. honda uses m12 bolts for their earlier models so that will require drilling of the knuckles to fit the larger bolts but the later models use m14 bolts which is the same as the mercedes calipers making them a bolt on affair. then i can measure up what i need an then find a rotor that fits, im hoping for something around 320mm as the caliper is closer to the knuckle than that of the mercedes.
people do a similar upgrade using a brembo caliper from a genesis coupe which uses a 340mm from factory, but due to the caliper being closer to the knuckle on the honda you end up using a 320mm rotor from a nissan rogue (reason im not doing the genesis coupe brembos is the genesis coupe never released in my country (australia) and importing a 10kg caliper gets expensive)
anyway i was thinking of getting a ''test'' caliper from a w222 (like pictured below) and bolting it on and doing measurements to see what will work, im aware i will have to swap the left and right around due to the bleeder nipple and caliper position but anyway should be a fun little project
im kinda hoping i can bolt these calipers directly to a honda knuckle. honda uses m12 bolts for their earlier models so that will require drilling of the knuckles to fit the larger bolts but the later models use m14 bolts which is the same as the mercedes calipers making them a bolt on affair. then i can measure up what i need an then find a rotor that fits, im hoping for something around 320mm as the caliper is closer to the knuckle than that of the mercedes.
people do a similar upgrade using a brembo caliper from a genesis coupe which uses a 340mm from factory, but due to the caliper being closer to the knuckle on the honda you end up using a 320mm rotor from a nissan rogue (reason im not doing the genesis coupe brembos is the genesis coupe never released in my country (australia) and importing a 10kg caliper gets expensive)
anyway i was thinking of getting a ''test'' caliper from a w222 (like pictured below) and bolting it on and doing measurements to see what will work, im aware i will have to swap the left and right around due to the bleeder nipple and caliper position but anyway should be a fun little project
You won't know until you know. Items to keep in mind are things such as the location of the caliper over the rotor. In that, when the caliper is mounted on the spindle is the caliper located so that the rotor is centered within the caliper. The MB rotor is 36mm thick and so the caliper is designed for that. Can you get a rotor on the Honda at the same thickness? Also, the brake pads of this caliper will require a certain sized rotor 'face' (72mm) in order to have full and correct contact. Depending on the spindle design, you may find that the caliper will work but with a different mounting bracket that correctly locates the caliper correctly in relationship to the rotor. With a custom bracket you would be able to use the smaller M12 mounting bolts and not have to modify the spindles. You may have considered all of these issues, but these are a couple to chew on. There will be other issues such as how to mount the flexible brake line/hose. Maybe convert to a banjo style connection? Best of luck.
The 8 piston was somewhat of two calipers in one with four pistons for each of the four brake pads used with the caliper. The E class 8 piston caliper has a total of four 28mm pistons and four 32 pistons for a total square of 11,354mm area. When MB went to the 6 piston caliper in 2007 on the 211/219 63s, those calipers had two 34mm, two 36mm, and two 38mm pistons for a total square area of 12,233mm. The clamping force of the 6 piston version was nearly 8% greater. Note: the 6 piston caliper used on the 211 360 and 390 rotors are exactly the same with the only differnece between the two in the bolt on mounting bracket which moves the caliper 15mm away from the axle center line for the larger diamter 390mm rotor.
The similar appearing 6 piston calipers used on the 212/218 bodied cars actually have smaller pistons at 32, 34, 38 for a total sqaure area of 11,379mm - the same as the 8 piston calipers used on the E55. Hope that helps.
do you think the W212 and W218 went to smaller front pistons to allow for further brake balance to be rear bias? these chassis also have 360mm rear brakes versus ours of 330mm. I am planning to upgrade my rear to their 360mm rears and thinking should i also just swap out the front calipers to the later ones to keep the same brake balance.
Originally Posted by machild
Yes, it would be good to confirm if the 212/218 360 brackets will correctly mount the 211/219 six piston caliper on the 211/219 knuckle.
the brackets and calipers are not cross compatible. the W211 and W219 calipers and bracket union uses an M10 bolt but the W204/W212/W218 caliper to bracket union use an M12 bolt.
do you think the W212 and W218 went to smaller front pistons to allow for further brake balance to be rear bias? these chassis also have 360mm rear brakes versus ours of 330mm. I am planning to upgrade my rear to their 360mm rears and thinking should i also just swap out the front calipers to the later ones to keep the same brake balance.
The rear calipers on the 212's have piston sizes of 32mm & 30mm compared to the original 211's of 30 & 28. So, not only is there more leverage with the larger diameter 212 rotors but more clamping with larger overall piston area. Your thought of increasing the rear bias may well be the reason they went the route of decreasing the front caliper poiston area on the 212's.
Proper bias is important and with the 211 they moved farther toward adding more front bias when they went to the 6 piston caliper.
The brackets and calipers are not cross compatible. the W211 and W219 calipers and bracket union uses an M10 bolt but the W204/W212/W218 caliper to bracket union use an M12 bolt.
Assuming you are speaking of the front calipers, which bolt are you referring to, the bolt holding the mounting bracket to the caliper or the bolts holding the caliper bracket to the steering knuckle? Based on the sizing you are speaking of it sounds like it is the former. Yes, the mounting brackets between the different generations of the 6 piston calpiers are not compatible.
Since it has been some time and I don't remember if I have mentioned this, to use the 212 rear calipers on the 211 platform you will need to make a couple of small changes to the caliper and the brake line connection to the caliper. If you already know that I won't type it out here again, but if you you are not aware of it then let me know and I can go over it for you.
Assuming you are speaking of the front calipers, which bolt are you referring to, the bolt holding the mounting bracket to the caliper or the bolts holding the caliper bracket to the steering knuckle? Based on the sizing you are speaking of it sounds like it is the former. Yes, the mounting brackets between the different generations of the 6 piston calpiers are not compatible.
Since it has been some time and I don't remember if I have mentioned this, to use the 212 rear calipers on the 211 platform you will need to make a couple of small changes to the caliper and the brake line connection to the caliper. If you already know that I won't type it out here again, but if you you are not aware of it then let me know and I can go over it for you.
I appreciate your time, and I would certainly like to know what it would take to make the W212 rear calipers work. Despite the lack of pistons, it would seem that the larger rotor diameter would add up to better rear brakes than the stock W211 setup.
I appreciate your time, and I would certainly like to know what it would take to make the W212 rear calipers work. Despite the lack of pistons, it would seem that the larger rotor diameter would add up to better rear brakes than the stock W211 setup.
Neal - good to hear from you. The E Class 212 moved the rear caliper to the rear side of the axle line. The caliper is designed to have the larger pistons of the overall four pistons to be on the leading side of the caliper so that as the rotor is rotating those larger pistons are on the leading edge as the brakes are applied. To move the caliper to the 211 platform with the caliper on the front of the axle line the the caliper needs to be rotated from the 212 position to the 211 position 180* degrees. This casues the brake bleed nipple on the bottom of the caliper in the 211 location. Good news is that the caliper is drilled, threaded and pluged for the new now required upper location. The plug has been lock-tight in so heat will be needed to free the plug up for removal and installing the bleed nipple in that location.
The other issue is the way the flexible brake line connects to the caliper. The correct installed situation has the brake hose connecting lower side of the installed caliper and in an upper angle. When the caliper is rotated 180* degrees around the axle line, the connection is on the upper side and not only will the brake hose not connect it iwll end up being the highest point and making bleeding very difficult. The solution is to replace the brake line hose with a banjoe fitting hose designed for a standard 10mm banjoe bolt. I can get all the spec for this conversion if you are really interested. I hope that helps, but ask if you have more questons.
Could the calipers just be simply swapped left to right to solve both issues? I am intrigued by this. I am building another car now which requires the electric parking brake. I have already figured out the CAN interfacing to the W221 electronic parking brake module, and I was planning on using that, but I can be persuaded to change course, if it means gaining better braking performance
Could the calipers just be simply swapped left to right to solve both issues? I am intrigued by this. I am building another car now which requires the electric parking brake. I have already figured out the CAN interfacing to the W221 electronic parking brake module, and I was planning on using that, but I can be persuaded to change course, if it means gaining better braking performance
p.s. - Always good to see your posts!
In a word - no. Let's start with the original installed of these calipers on the right (passenger) side of the car. Caliper orientation has the larger piston in the lower positon so that when the car is going forward the rotor clockwise rotation has the larger pistons on the leading edge. When we move that caliper to the left (driver's) side the rotaion of the rotor is reversed and is now counter clockwise and the leading is now at the top of the caliper not the bottom as it was on the right side of the car. If the calipers are simply swapeed sides the pistons are still in the same locatiion, but the rotor rotation direction is reversed which puts the larger pistons in the incorrect location.
By keeping the caliper on it's original side and simply rotating it around the rotor it keeps the pistons in the correct orientation to the rotor rotation direction. But, that is where the other issues of bleed nipple and brake line connect come in. But these calipers are adaptable to the changes - many calipers are not adaptable as there are not secondary location of the bleed nipples avaliable.
OK, I did not realize from the pics of these that they were multi-piston calipers. I thought they might be single piston. I am definitely intrigued by this, and it may be a good fit and upgrade from the CLK55 calipers I am using right now. The CLK55 calipers were a zero sum upgrade from the SLK32 (SRT6) calipers I had been running with EBC Yellow Stuff pads. Running EBC Blue Stuff pads with the CLK55 calipers, but again, no gain that I can tell at all from them over the 'smaller' brakes. This was on my Crossfire w/M113K. New car is a a Crossfire with an M156, and I am always looking for a parts bin engineering solution for the various systems, and W211 is a great resource for many of them.
OK, I did not realize from the pics of these that they were multi-piston calipers. I thought they might be single piston. I am definitely intrigued by this, and it may be a good fit and upgrade from the CLK55 calipers I am using right now. The CLK55 calipers were a zero sum upgrade from the SLK32 (SRT6) calipers I had been running with EBC Yellow Stuff pads. Running EBC Blue Stuff pads with the CLK55 calipers, but again, no gain that I can tell at all from them over the 'smaller' brakes. This was on my Crossfire w/M113K. New car is a a Crossfire with an M156, and I am always looking for a parts bin engineering solution for the various systems, and W211 is a great resource for many of them.
Okay, I got you. The SLK32 (R170) has the rear brake configuration of caliper mounted behind the rear axle line. This is the same way the W212 E Class is configured. So, that is a plus. The next issue is the rotor. The spec on the rear Crossfire is 330mm diameter and ~55.4mm total height. (Note: when lookin up specs for rotors and such there are some variations.) The height is critical as it puts the rotor braking surfaces in the correct plane for the caliper brake pads to make correct contact. To use the 212 caliper you will have to find a rotor that has the same height, thickness, and 360mm diametor. The SLK55 (R171) rear rortors are stated to be 360mm diameter, 26mm thick, and height of ~58. That rotor will sit 3mm closer to the center of the car due to the height differnece. Depending on where the caliper mounting ears are on the rear knuckle you may need to shim the caliper 3mm toward the center of the car. Also, the 212 caliper uses 12mm mounting bolts while the Crossfire (assuming it is the same as the R170) should be 10mm. Hopefully, there is enough material to drill out the 10mm holes to 12mm.
I hope this helps.
This info is based on a very quick look around. There may be a rotor that meets the spec's and allow the caliper to be mountied in the original location without modifiction. But, this could/should/may allow to use the 212 caliper without moving the bleed nipples or come up with a banjoe connection setup.
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