Has anyone tried Chinese rods?
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From: Phoenix
222 S-65
OP Chinesium rods are a crap-shoot. I have ordered them for small block Chev that got several machine steps done to use them in a Frenchie bent six that I stroked for more displacement. The steel was obviously of different hardness between the two sets of the same part number!
That said.... They lived just a fine in a +T application with CP forged pistons and programmable EMS. This was an amusing rabbit hole I wandered down. Many many broken drivetrain parts followed making BIG power.
Using different rods and pistons says you will get to balance the reciprocating assembly. This is a deep rabbit hole you are looking into.
Best at wishes with your project. Keep in mind that the project is only fun once it is running again!
That said.... They lived just a fine in a +T application with CP forged pistons and programmable EMS. This was an amusing rabbit hole I wandered down. Many many broken drivetrain parts followed making BIG power.
Using different rods and pistons says you will get to balance the reciprocating assembly. This is a deep rabbit hole you are looking into.
Best at wishes with your project. Keep in mind that the project is only fun once it is running again!
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2005 e55
It would probably be cheaper to get another platform than attempt a 1khp m113k. Especially if you’re going to turbo it. It’s probably not the most popular option around here, but it’s hard to beat an LS swap for reliability and power potential… Just a thought
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From: Tacoma
05 E55 (06 E55 RIP)
I think you will be surprised, I’m a bad way… I don’t see more than 650-700+whp holding for long under some abuse. Then you’ll need a trans…
It would probably be cheaper to get another platform than attempt a 1khp m113k. Especially if you’re going to turbo it. It’s probably not the most popular option around here, but it’s hard to beat an LS swap for reliability and power potential… Just a thought
It would probably be cheaper to get another platform than attempt a 1khp m113k. Especially if you’re going to turbo it. It’s probably not the most popular option around here, but it’s hard to beat an LS swap for reliability and power potential… Just a thought
id wager its cheaper to throw forged pistons in a K and swap to a ZF *8sp that it would be to LS swap the car. the fallacy of LS swapping is that you can get a $14 5.3 at pick and pull and then throw is $600 turbo kit at it and make 800whp. The reality is that it might do 800 a fiew times before it exploded. Not to mention the fab work and still having to solve the trans issue. Ive been around a lot of LS swapped stuff, the cheapest I've seen one done is 2.5K. and that was into 350z drift car, not a clean daily drivable swap that isn't hacked in there.
the other thing to remember is simply, why? The E55 is probably the only car I can remember being usually faster than its dyno numbers. Meaning a 550-600whp E55 is going to be faster than that. some of the fastest E55s on the planet are all around 600whp, and running 10.3s@138. that is rolling, and for a full weight street car that looks so unassuming its shocking. my 550ishwhp car moves out better than that number, I can door to door all day with a redeye. those cars typically trap 126+.
Do a carefully and thoughtfully pulley/LT/Cooling setup and enjoy a car that will fun like a raped ape with nearly stock reliability and go hurt some feelings bro.
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2005 e55
im going to go ahead and uh sort or disagree with there. The pistons are the limit of a stock K. 700whp seems to be the danger zone. As mentioned its not so much the pistons limits, its the trans. While the 722.6 is one of the strongest automatics of its time and even holds up well today, the prodigious torque made by the engine is too much. a 700whp E55 likely is approaching 1000wtq at very low rpms relatively.
id wager its cheaper to throw forged pistons in a K and swap to a ZF *8sp that it would be to LS swap the car. the fallacy of LS swapping is that you can get a $14 5.3 at pick and pull and then throw is $600 turbo kit at it and make 800whp. The reality is that it might do 800 a fiew times before it exploded. Not to mention the fab work and still having to solve the trans issue. Ive been around a lot of LS swapped stuff, the cheapest I've seen one done is 2.5K. and that was into 350z drift car, not a clean daily drivable swap that isn't hacked in there.
the other thing to remember is simply, why? The E55 is probably the only car I can remember being usually faster than its dyno numbers. Meaning a 550-600whp E55 is going to be faster than that. some of the fastest E55s on the planet are all around 600whp, and running 10.3s@138. that is rolling, and for a full weight street car that looks so unassuming its shocking. my 550ishwhp car moves out better than that number, I can door to door all day with a redeye. those cars typically trap 126+.
Do a carefully and thoughtfully pulley/LT/Cooling setup and enjoy a car that will fun like a raped ape with nearly stock reliability and go hurt some feelings bro.
id wager its cheaper to throw forged pistons in a K and swap to a ZF *8sp that it would be to LS swap the car. the fallacy of LS swapping is that you can get a $14 5.3 at pick and pull and then throw is $600 turbo kit at it and make 800whp. The reality is that it might do 800 a fiew times before it exploded. Not to mention the fab work and still having to solve the trans issue. Ive been around a lot of LS swapped stuff, the cheapest I've seen one done is 2.5K. and that was into 350z drift car, not a clean daily drivable swap that isn't hacked in there.
the other thing to remember is simply, why? The E55 is probably the only car I can remember being usually faster than its dyno numbers. Meaning a 550-600whp E55 is going to be faster than that. some of the fastest E55s on the planet are all around 600whp, and running 10.3s@138. that is rolling, and for a full weight street car that looks so unassuming its shocking. my 550ishwhp car moves out better than that number, I can door to door all day with a redeye. those cars typically trap 126+.
Do a carefully and thoughtfully pulley/LT/Cooling setup and enjoy a car that will fun like a raped ape with nearly stock reliability and go hurt some feelings bro.
I haven’t seen many 700whp e55s, let alone ones that stayed together more than a couple of months… let’s say pistons are the limiting factor. How much would it cost to build an m113k with just pistons, sleeves, and a minor head port? VRP has sleeves BLOCK ONLY for 4k, then 2k+ for pistons, then all the nickel and dime stuff that adds up when building a motor. One can buy a brand new 480hp LS3 from GM for less than 10k…
If one was going the used route, you can buy a 5.3-6.2 for 1500-8k WITH trans. There’s a 2013 Camaro LS3 pull out WITH 6speed on eBay for 7,899 obo rn… The hardest/most expensive part of the swap would be getting it running, ie electronics imo
Now the WHP part I agree with. The E IS faster than the dyno numbers! 550whp goin 10s is moving. Period! But in this day and age, it’s a stoplight to stoplight car. It won’t hang too long in a roll race with todays cars! Maybe it IS our trans! I’d love to swap an 8spd but, who has done it and will it work reliably?
You are correct in the last sentiment. LT, pulley, cooling, and tune is the safest route to keep these cars running without much issue! I would like to do a blower swap, and interchiller… or get a CTS-V, W212 E63. I’m at 130k now running like a champ
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2005 e55 AMG
Block sleeved was 2,500.00, pistons 2,400.00 and heavily reworked rods another 500.00 so it can be built cheaper.
The Trans is a great light to light transmission but.... I can tell you for a fact that only having two gears when I roll race sucks and you need a lot of torque on the shift to keep this car moving.
The Trans is a great light to light transmission but.... I can tell you for a fact that only having two gears when I roll race sucks and you need a lot of torque on the shift to keep this car moving.
Last edited by SICAMG; Dec 19, 2022 at 08:36 AM.
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2005 e55
So maybe 7-8k+- with labor and no head work in your opinion? There was another post thread were folks were saying to rebuild an m113k will easily cost more than 10k! In that thread they were saying more like 12k+. I believe you were a part of it? It may have started about pistons were available and the convo went to block sleeves if I recall…
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95 SL600
The reality is that it might do 800 a fiew times before it exploded.
That’s just not true, I have done it quite a few times with head studs 317 heads , cam and rod bolts. While it wasn’t $14 and $600 for the turbo kit, it was much less than any m113. These engines lasted about 3 years at around 800whp with an unlocked converter. If tuned correctly and with proper supporting hardware, they are very strong.
That’s just not true, I have done it quite a few times with head studs 317 heads , cam and rod bolts. While it wasn’t $14 and $600 for the turbo kit, it was much less than any m113. These engines lasted about 3 years at around 800whp with an unlocked converter. If tuned correctly and with proper supporting hardware, they are very strong.
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2005 e55 AMG
So maybe 7-8k+- with labor and no head work in your opinion? There was another post thread were folks were saying to rebuild an m113k will easily cost more than 10k! In that thread they were saying more like 12k+. I believe you were a part of it? It may have started about pistons were available and the convo went to block sleeves if I recall…
To me the bottom line is....I could care less what it cost, not that I want to waste money, but if you have a goal and want to build a car it's going to cost money. If dollar signs are all you are going to see find another hobby. I have had guys break my ***** on a Mustang I built and put $27,000 into plus racing costs into it and had it for 15 years of fun. All the while looking at their $65,000 pick up truck they are paying on for the next 5 years....plus interest.
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From: Tacoma
05 E55 (06 E55 RIP)
The reality is that it might do 800 a fiew times before it exploded.
That’s just not true, I have done it quite a few times with head studs 317 heads , cam and rod bolts. While it wasn’t $14 and $600 for the turbo kit, it was much less than any m113. These engines lasted about 3 years at around 800whp with an unlocked converter. If tuned correctly and with proper supporting hardware, they are very strong.
That’s just not true, I have done it quite a few times with head studs 317 heads , cam and rod bolts. While it wasn’t $14 and $600 for the turbo kit, it was much less than any m113. These engines lasted about 3 years at around 800whp with an unlocked converter. If tuned correctly and with proper supporting hardware, they are very strong.
"I did it". WITH heads, head studs, cam(no springs/retainers??)/bolts. Found a hot rodded Tahoe in that junkyard eh?😉 those parts have cost. 🙈
All that swap to swap a motor....and be maybe 2-3mph more in the 1/4 vs a car like mine with less than 1.5K in mods, that was really my point, I was decently um, inebriated in that post lol. you don't need 1k HP or a xx whatever a LS swap costs xx to have a seriously quick E55.
I dunno, I know my LS hate is showing, but im working on it and trying to focus that hate into EVs 😂
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From: 6-7k
911,350Z,E63
It’s funny bc you E55 guys revel in torque (nothing wrong with that the car is fantastic and so moddable) and then crap on EVs which offer even better torque curves. Sure you miss the sound but what you gain in response and handling (with low COG) is huge.
NF
NF
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2006 E55
the other thing to remember is simply, why? The E55 is probably the only car I can remember being usually faster than its dyno numbers. Meaning a 550-600whp E55 is going to be faster than that. some of the fastest E55s on the planet are all around 600whp, and running 10.3s@138. that is rolling, and for a full weight street car that looks so unassuming its shocking. my 550ishwhp car moves out better than that number, I can door to door all day with a redeye. those cars typically trap 126+.
I can think of several platforms (LSx, for instance) that I'd play around with than this motor - for a fraction of cost for BIG power. It's always nice to push the envelope, but there's a fine line between stupidity and madness!
Just my .02
PS Nobody gives a flying F about EV - let's refrain from that conversation in here. HAHA!!
Last edited by ArmoE55; Dec 20, 2022 at 01:49 PM.
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From: The Netherlands
2005 CLS55 AMG W219 C219
I can't agree more with this comment. This car surprises so many people on the road it's ridiculous. A few bolt-ons and you're keeping with full out sports cars, even some of the newest ones. Imagine an almost 20 year old sedan with old tech, slow *** tranny shifts, keeping up with the cars of today. A pulley, headers, and tune is enough.
I was very suprised to see that my CLS55 did a 9.72 sec on the 100-200kph with 2 people on board and RON95 petrol. This is a very good starting point, as it only can get better at this point
[edit]
In the Netherlands, you have a lot of people who drove a 12-14 second petrol/diesel car (0-100kph) who bought a EV car which now does 7-8 seconds (0-100kph) and then think they can outrun everyone at the stoplights haha.
Last edited by nd-photo.nl; Dec 20, 2022 at 01:56 PM.
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95 SL600
I can't agree more with this comment. This car surprises so many people on the road it's ridiculous. A few bolt-ons and you're keeping with full out sports cars, even some of the newest ones. Imagine an almost 20 year old sedan with old tech, slow *** tranny shifts, keeping up with the cars of today. A pulley, headers, and tune is enough.
I can think of several platforms (LSx, for instance) that I'd play around with than this motor - for a fraction of cost for BIG power. It's always nice to push the envelope, but there's a fine line between stupidity and madness!
Just my .02
PS Nobody gives a flying F about EV - let's refrain from that conversation in here. HAHA!!
I can think of several platforms (LSx, for instance) that I'd play around with than this motor - for a fraction of cost for BIG power. It's always nice to push the envelope, but there's a fine line between stupidity and madness!
Just my .02
PS Nobody gives a flying F about EV - let's refrain from that conversation in here. HAHA!!
My son bought a 2002 C32 with 72,000 miles on it that lived most of its life with a larger crank pulley, apparently the m112k with its pressed on cam lobes didn’t like that. Two of them spun slightly and decided to take out the exhaust valve and engine. These are temperamental engines and I am happy with them just running in stock form.
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From: Phoenix
222 S-65
Yes I leave all my amg Mercedes stock (C32 SL55 E55 CLS55) as well as my 997 turbo. The Mercedes and Porsche 996 cars that I have swapped ls1 and forced induction on are the ones I will throw Chinese rods in.
My son bought a 2002 C32 with 72,000 miles on it that lived most of its life with a larger crank pulley, apparently the m112k with its pressed on cam lobes didn’t like that. Two of them spun slightly and decided to take out the exhaust valve and engine. These are temperamental engines and I am happy with them just running in stock form.
My son bought a 2002 C32 with 72,000 miles on it that lived most of its life with a larger crank pulley, apparently the m112k with its pressed on cam lobes didn’t like that. Two of them spun slightly and decided to take out the exhaust valve and engine. These are temperamental engines and I am happy with them just running in stock form.
Cam lobe(s) spinning has nothing to do with boost. That is a mechanical issue that would happen regardless.
Lot of hate for Chinesium rods here by guys who have obviously never had an engine open.
EV stuff... not for this guy. Likely never.
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From: Virginia
N/A
You can’t look at a rod and tell me its metallurgy.
FYI: I’ve built plenty of engines.
Just my 02!
Last edited by Fountain35; Dec 26, 2022 at 05:54 PM.
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95 SL600
I don’t know the correlation, but there definitely is some.
Thread Starter
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Merc
So anyway, moving the subject back to making 2000hp...
Let's ignore chinesium rods for now and discuss pistons. Where does the limit lie? What causes failure?
In my view, I would say that the issue with NA pistons is the CR being to high. The dynamic CR will change once I get a set of cams, so that shouldn't be much of a problem. It then boils down to longevity.
I understand that K pistons had a thicker crown and thicker walled gudgeon pin. Is changing pistons for stronger items absolutely necessary?
FYI this engine is intended for a w163.
The torque curve won't hit the trans hard at low rpm like a supercharger. I'll look into strengthening it later.
Let's ignore chinesium rods for now and discuss pistons. Where does the limit lie? What causes failure?
In my view, I would say that the issue with NA pistons is the CR being to high. The dynamic CR will change once I get a set of cams, so that shouldn't be much of a problem. It then boils down to longevity.
I understand that K pistons had a thicker crown and thicker walled gudgeon pin. Is changing pistons for stronger items absolutely necessary?
FYI this engine is intended for a w163.
The torque curve won't hit the trans hard at low rpm like a supercharger. I'll look into strengthening it later.
Last edited by Hooblah; Dec 27, 2022 at 06:49 AM.
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2005 e55 AMG
The pistons have to be changed since they are cast. But a good forged piston can go into the 2,000 hp zone if built correctly....of course we are talking of a street strip engine not on Nitro/Alcohol.
The piston in a K engine is really the weak link and always has been.
The piston in a K engine is really the weak link and always has been.
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From: Germany RLP
W211 E220, W211 E55, W203 C55
In Germany i've seen several instances where the pistons have cracked in the middle. But i'm not sure how good the fuel delivery in these cases were. If your fuel pumps are faulty, you'll lean out and cause higher combustions temps, without even noticing. People tend to look at different pistons here when going for 600hp+ at the crank (German dyno number). However we have different roads here, so you can stress the engine more than in other countries perhaps.
I can agree with chinese certificats being inaccurate. But maybe it will work, somebody has to be the first to try
I can agree with chinese certificats being inaccurate. But maybe it will work, somebody has to be the first to try
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2005 e55 AMG
No...Not 2,000hp with an M113K. I was saying a forged piston in general can go very high.
To the Op....a Weistec at 22psi has made 700 to the tire and is documented. So that is roughly 800 at the crank...on a stock engine. Finding another 200 should not be too hard with a little Nitrous as well
