Gabri343

0-60 in 4.6s
0-100 in 9.8s
0-120 in 13.3s
0-150 in 21.0 s (some 3 seconds or more faster than a E55 AMG)
standing qtr mile in 12.8s @ 119mph
standing km in 22.6s @ 154mph

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=47650

04E55 AMG

WOW.....Our E55's are going into the third production year and will be faster in both 0-60 and 1/4 distances then the new M5 based on this latest article.

My opinion.....The days of the M5 having bragging rights over the E55 are long over. The bar has been raised by AMG to the point that the glory years of the M5 over the W210 E55 are a thing of the past.

reggid

some people just never learn....... so tell me exactly how you know this? They never tested both cars!!!!
Don't forget some other mob got 0-62 in 4.4 and 1/4 in 12.45 s so who knows

Mardeth

Yea, and 1/4 mile and 0-60 performance numbers that this article claimes are better than M5, you seem to ignore all the others...

CynCarvin32

i ask a question.. a simple question...

do any E55 owners care about the ability of a car to turn and stop in a high performance driving environment? Or does everyone just mash their foot to the floor and go "hooo ahhhh ohhh ahhh".

I mean really... power is great but the M5 hands the E55 its *** in every braking and cornering situation.... no questions asked.

A car that can get to 100mph quickly is great but the road does turn and most people who use their AMG car for this type of driving (going, turning, and stopping -- many times over) will say it comes up short.

Drag racing is great but I am sick of hearing people say the E55 is BETTER because it can go FASTER in a STRAIGHT line. Is the E55 a muscle car or should it be a performance sedan?

The M5 is the better performance sedan and that is what BMW wanted to build.

jefrose55

*yawn*

Bilal

Cyncarvin, you have an E55 right? You consistently track it right? It understeers like crazy and completely is inadequate in such "high performance driving situations" right?

Well, if track ability is so important to you, because as far as I can see, you have to be a completel loon to drive like you would on the track as you do on the road, then why didn't you wait for the M5 or get another better handling sports sedan? Why?

If you say you bought it because of the comfort as such, then you totally contradict yourself. No one buys an "AMG" and expects it to hand the *** to every other equivalent car in the world when it coems to braking and handling and feel. The SL55 can't touch the 911 or the 360/430 or Gallardo for feel or handling. The E55 can't touch the M5 or RS6 in certain situations, can it? But AMG gives us what WE'RE looking for, and that simply is "a fast, comfortable and SPORTY, Mercedes-Benz". AMG don't advertise their cars with such a heavy emphasis on track ability do they?

Now we have proof, the M5 IS faster than the E55, ok only marginally so, but faster nonetheless but why is this board constantly filled with "just placed my order for a 2005 E55" or "picking the beast up tomorrow" type posts? People DON'T care the M5 is faster in a straight line or around a race track, they didn't like it for various reasons, that are obvious. So for these type of people the E55 is a superior car to them. If you think the M5 is the superior car then buy it. To me and to the vast majority here at mbworld, superior is the car WE choose individually not what the journo's think or what the Nordchleife lap times dictate. It is not an attack on those who think every car should handle well, more pwer to them, but to say a car is superior in the real world because it laps track X in time Y is ludicrous IMO.

And for Gabri343, I know you're a diehard M fan, but posting BMW M news at mbworld is as pointless as a one-legged man at an ****-kicking contest. The people here prefer Mercedes-Benz.

MB AMG

Wow, the M5 is faster than the E55. Boring.

CynCarvin32

thanks for the post bilal... go drive moms A-Class. For someone who has never driven a powerful MB let alone any car... you sure manage to post a bunch of stuff.

When u have driven a E55 and or M5 let me know. Reading magazine reviews only gets you so far.

Maybe if my E500 was not 5x more fun to drive than the E55 I would be more understanding. If the AMG car is WORSE than the spec car something is very wrong.

regards.

P.S. never tracked the E55 for it cant even manage a moderate canyon drive. Why go to a track and destroy the car for no real reason. There is no fun in that.

amg55

I've tracked the E55 and SL55, as well as a couple BMW 5's.
I think the central theme of Bilal's comments makes perfect sense.
I didn't buy my E55 for the handling.

I do a ton of interstate driving and I need a comfortable sedan, but I enjoy the straight line accel immensely. I'd virtually NEVER get to enjoy the M5's worthy handling attributes if I owned one.................and that's why I don't own one. It wouldn't suit my driving needs.

FWIW, the E55 was a very worthy car at 140 mph in some moderately aggressive track maneuvering. In a slalom or road course there is no MB which will match the M3 or M5.
But again, that fact is pointless in my world.

Erratic

From everything we've seen so far it looks like the M5 is marginally faster from a 0-60, and gains a larger advantage at higher speeds. I don't understand the this notion that permeates throughout this board that handling doesn't matter. Obviously neither car is a hardcore racing machine. There are few situations in which either of these cars would have a chance to for a high speed acceleration run, but you ALWAYS utilize a cars handling characteristics.

mhh

Sorry, I'm missing something. How can your E500 be more fun that an E55? I've recently ordered an E500, but I'm certainly not expecting it to be more fun than an E55!

Fast55

If these numbers are correct, the M5 is NOT faster than the 55. If so, it took BMW 3 years to come up with something that IS faster? And I challenge you to keep your license and enjoy the handling advantage the M5 does have over the E. Hangin' it out around a corner at 9 tenths will draw the man's attention like ***** draws flys. Much safer rolling into the throttle here and there enjoying the monster torque of the 55. This is pointless, they're two different cars with different missions.

CynCarvin32

No the E500 is not going to be as fast as the E55 but 302 hp is more than enough. There is a whole lot more to a car than straight line speed. You can drive the E500 at the limit and feel totally secure. In the E55 the steering effort is so heavy that you need to be a gorilla to keep it on line...let alone deal with a bit of oversteer if you get on the gas to hard. The brakes are not linear and the level of understeer is somewhere between massive and destructive.

This picture is of the drivers front tire on an E55 that spent a day at willow springs raceway (big track). The car was brand new (matter of days) and it needed new tires and new brake rotors after 1 day at the track. Tire wear like that points to massive understeer and poor chassis dynamics. No BMW would look like that after a track day... not even a 745Li.

Enjoy the E500 for I think it is one of the best cars made by mercedes right now. The 7 speed keeps the motor in its power band at all times and that makes up for any lack of power. My car will beat a C32 through first second and part of third gear.... after that the power difference takes over but thats impressive for a E500 I think.

W210

I personally find the E55 much more fun to drive than the E500. Much less body lean, dive and squat under hard acceleration and braking. The steering too light for my taste.

Owning the E55 for a year has definitely spoiled me, anything else just seems so underpowered.

It's interesting most critics of the E55 had never lived with one for any meaningful period of time. One has to own one to understand the car's virtue. The suspension is tuned perfectly for a daily workhorse, the RS6, M3, 997, Elise may be fun on the track, they are not suitable (too punishing a ride, too much squeaks and rattles) for my personal needs travelling from home to office everyday on less than perfect roads. And the power, yes the effortless power of the E55, is purely addictive.

Bilal

Thank you amg55.

Cyncarvin, I have never driven a powerful MB or indeed any other sports car. But I do know that the majority of MB's are made with a "heavy" driving characteristic. Best described as "the car doesn't want you to throw it around, and it will do its best to stop you". That is why the ESP on all Mercs is impossible to fully disengage (as ASR gets activated once you turn off ESP), the steering is heavy (AMG's idea of feel), they understeer like crazy (safest form of handling on streets for most drivers). Generally, the car will feel heavier to drive than it is and will put you off from driving it at a 10/10 limit. I guess this is what Mercedes natural handling and feel trait is. Every marque has its own driiving "theme", and this is Mercs.

Me personally, I like to drive with the autobox in manual mode and then overtake cars with the torque curve, as you know diesels are very famous for that. This can be highly entertaining. I tend to avoid driving at high speeds through corners, for some reason I feel as I am "wrecking" the car (brakes, suspension, tyres) etc. So to me it makes no sense to drive a "high performance" practical car like the M3 or M5 or RS6 or Jaguar S-type R. I also have an inferiority complex if I'm driving anything less than a Mercedes. :p Now I'd personally like much more power in a better package, maybe a bit more comfort, I do not mind if the car drives like a "Benz" (aforementioned characteristics) because thats what I want. I don't care if the E55 is just an E500 with 500hp and a firmer ride, I'd take it in the knowledge that it was a BENZ with 500hp and drove like how I wanted it to drive, as a Benz. By this logic all AMG Mercs would fulfil my driving needs. An SL55 especially so, due to the exhaust.

Anyways, thats just my opinion. I feel that you are naive in expecting such characteristics from an AMG Mercedes. You should know anything that weighs 2 tons, has a 5 speed autobox and is based on a Merc platform will be anything like to drive as an M car or makes a good basis for a drivers car. Maybe this is AMG's inability to make a good handling car, and they cover it up by shoving 500hp into their cars and hope the customer doesn't notice? Do you really think AMG is that inexperienced? They weren't born yesterday. A lot of what AMG does is subject to Mercs rules and regulations, for reasons of driver safety, don't expect an M5 dynamic with a three pointed star anytime soon. AMG is getting good sales so maybe there are people who accept the E55's limitations and applaud its merits, anyone who realizes this after ownership for 2 months is either a first time AMG buyer and just came from a Porsche or M car, or they are really naive.

Surprising how much I write having never driven a Powerful MB.

CynCarvin32

I'm glad you enjoy your car. From how you describe your driving style you do not push the car much for you have not noticed the drawbacks of the vehicle. For the average driver the E55 is a great car but an AMG vehicle needs to be capable of pleasing more discerning drivers for it is the performance model for the make. This comes down to driving style. I have put 13k miles on the E55 and E500 (6k on the SL55) and I can say the E500 is far more fun. I have let fellow board members drive the cars and one member almost ran off the road because the E55 failed to turn in on a local on ramp. This board user drives a CL55 Kompressor and said the E55 was nowhere near an SL,S, or CL and I can agree 100%. I the E500 is so fun to drive I melt its tires twice as fast as those on the E55.

The E500 undergoes a transformation when you push past 6-7/10ths and becomes a very firmly sprung. The AirMatic system shuts off part of the air shock (increasing the effective spring rate and shock valving) and the car hunkers down for some real business. While the E500 lets the driver throttle steer to correct for understeer, the E55 will simply keep on plowing until you are 100% off the throttle for a second or more. If you need to tighten your line in the E500 you simply back off the throttle and the car tucks in instantly (and will go into a 4 wheel drift in need be). That would NEVER happen in the E55 without planting your foot to the floor and overwhelming the rear tires with 516 ft/lb of tq.


Tire wear shows how a car is behaving and the E55 kills the front tires. On the other hand the E500 has 100% even tire wear front to back and left to right. I ordered a set of Goodyear Eagle F1 GS-D3's that should be on the E500 by Friday and that should take it up another notch for these stock sport contact tires are a real joke.

CynCarvin32

Reviews like yours are why AMG builds cars the way they do. If someone asked for a real performance sedan they would build it. I'm not alone in saying the E55 has terrible steering feel for AMG is putting in new steering bushings and a faster ratio rack to make the car feel more alive (and guess what it wont feel nearly as heavy off center). If the car was just right with dead steering they would have left it alone Bilal. Heavy steering is the oldest trick in the book when it comes to trying to create artificial steering feel. Luckily AMG has decided they no longer want to use the trick that has been employed but such great firms ad VW and Chevy.

Your driving style sounds like you should be in a S400 CDI and nothing more Bilal. Why in the world would you want all that power when you plan to lump around and bumble with the torque curve? A CDI V8 turbo makes nearly the same torque but gets more than 9 mpg when flogged.

If the car is well sorted and properly designed, brisk driving will never destroy the chassis, breaks or tyres. Look at E36 BMW's. Those cars can drive for 20 sessions on 1 set of race tires while a C32 will kill 1 set in 2 days at the track. A M5 does not self-destruct under pressure so why should a MB E55? You want a car to drive like a Benz so buy a Benz not an AMG Benz. When people just buy the car for the motor, we get cars that cannot round a bend.

I believe you are naïve in trying to tell people about how a car should drive or what an AMG car should be when you have never even driven one. You are not what MB envisions when building an AMG car and if they did envision you in the process the car would be like a German built Buick. You wanted to put the SL600 ABC suspension on in a SL55 to make it ride better. FYI the SL55 rides far better than an E55 or E500 in Sports II so why try to make it smoother? That about sums up my point right there Bilal. You are not an AMG customer so don't try to dilute the car to fit you. Your ideal car would be an SL600 with a RENNtech or MKB exhaust or a Brabus S400 CDI.

If BMW and Audi AG can get large 4 door cars to excel in a straight line and when the road curves there is NO reason why a customer should not expect the same from MB/AMG. The E500 is a blast and logic would say the E55 should surpass it. Trouble is… almost every magazine says the AMG version is less dynamic when the car needs to turn and stop when compared to its underpowered brother. I could post numbers for an E320 non sport which equalled or was .5 mph slower than an E55 through the cones and pulled the SAME g load on the skid pad. Does a M5 kill an 530i through the cones? You better believe it.

W210

No, you're right I do not push the car to the limit on ramps and I do not track the car.

I suppose if I were a lateral g type of driver, I would have picked a BMW, Porsche or Lotus.

However, I have certainly made full use of the power on many occasions and it's addictive.

I guess we all have different priorities, even though I use the car extensively as a point and squirt car on a daily basis and should appreciate the extra traction, I still haven't bothered replacing those stock Continentals. And believe it or not, I personally prefer seeing MB adding (even more weight) to the E55 with 4matic for better traction before improving cornering ability!

For my use, the drawback of the vehicle is the lack of traction and too much engine and exhaust noise (kill me I prefer Lexus and 745i quietness over Ferrar roar) and not cornering ability.

reggid

To enjoy the handling of a BMW doesn't require to corner at 9 tenths that is rather foolish and i see that comment all the time aswell as the one where it is said "who drives on the racetrack anyway" or something along those lines.
Its more about the way the car feels and the way it makes you feel in complete control and the ease at which the ulimate limit can be approached or exceeded in my case.
It seems most new cars isolate the driver more than ever and that goes for both BMW and MB. Realistically the M5 ultimate grip levels would likely be only slightly above that of the E55 since the grip level is ~95% dependant on the tyre and ~5% on weight distribution and suspension etc

They are totally different, i agree. I get annoyed when people say one is better than the other or the E55 has more torque or that the M5 handles better. Why? because they were meant to be that way and were designed that way.

-The M5 was not supposed to have low down torque else they wouldn't have it rev to 8000+rpm. They could easily increase the displacement or use FI, but they didn't.......funny that.

-The E55 was not designed to coner like a M series BMW otherwise it wouldn't have the excellent ride of a MB.

i suppose the arguments will go on and at least it keeps some of the kids off the street.

Bilal

Your arguments are perfectly valid. I am not doubting your statements.

The thing is, AMG builds cars with a comfort bias. This is true of all their cars. And AMG cars sell well as a result of this. Now they could upon request make a real well handling sport sedan, even with a manual or SMG type transmission, but for every car they make like this, they may end up losing 2 or more customers who complain its not comfortable or easier to drive anymore, does that seem logical? Just look at the sales figures for the SL55. It continues to sell at 4 times the predicted sales figures? Why? Ok, it looks, good, it sounds good, its a Benz, but most importantly it offers a synthesis of two key aspects of a cars character, power and comfort, and it is on this basis alone the car or teh AMg brand as a collective sells as good as it does. Now way does the SL55 possess the traits of a true sportscar in replicating a Porsche or Ferrari handling or feel, (this varies from person to person) but it does so well in sales figures? Explain why? By no means is it a drivers car, look at the weight reasons et al. But it sells.

AMG as a brand as a result of the SL55 have taken the brand to such heights and as a result of their engines have gained automotive respect amongst the most serious sportscars of our time, only due to their straight line performance.

Now I KNOW you are wanting a Mercedes with sporting character to back it up. There's no harm in that, but why don't you tell AMG this? Why don't you go down to Affalterbach and say to them, "I want you to make me an E55 with this, that and those." Do you really think my statements have any effect on AMG on how design a cars handling whatsoever? Am I personal friends with their manager? Am I even one of their customers>? NO. (not yet anyway)

The point is, after analysing their cars you understand that as a company their wishes are not entirely fulfilled as big brother in Stuttgart is watching over them. After analysing their sales figures and future plans you begin to see what types of cars they make, why they make them, and why they keep their customers happy. Customers of the 55K cars wanted more power, AMG gave them the 65's, are these cars dynamic in anyway shape or form? Can they give an M car a serious fright on a twisiting road? Hell no, but guess what I heard>? The 65 cars are fully sold out and AMG may not be able to fulfil all customer demands (AMG Owners Club Chairman statement). Why if these cars have no dynamic appeal whatsoever do they sell as good? People accept their limitations and fulfil their sporting needs with other vehicles.

I am no way indicating how AMG should design its cars, let me keep reiterating this point, I don't care if AMG envisions me or not when designing their cars, the point is, they don't envision you either, otherwise their cars won't fall as badly dynamically short as they do. What AMG do is a COMPROMISE between what I want and what you want. They can go either way, they can build cars for me, basically an S500 with a preposterously monster engine or they can go the full length and build an M car beater, but they don't because thats not what their customers want, if they wanted that they would tell them! This point my supports MY PERSONAL theory for what an AMG car should be Why don't you tell them you want a dynamic car>?! They'll build it if you have enough money under AMG Unique Manufacturing.

As you say, if they build a car for me, it would turn out to be a Buick. I take great offence in this as American cars are well, inadequate at best IMO. The point is, AMG makes a compromise between an E500 and an M5, what you get is an E55. Now you say, the E500 is more fun and the E55 is dynamically incompetent, true? Well, why the hell is the car selling so well? What have they done to make it as bad as it is? What have they done to make it as good as it is? And why have they done these things>?

As for me, I prefer a smoother ride. I know by your account and by others opinions the SL55 is very smooth, but is it slightly firmer than the SL600? Of course it is. Here in the UK, we have the worst roads imaginable. A hard ride can ruin your interior and lead to rattles. I never drive fast round corners anyway, so why not make the SL55 ride as well as the SL600? The 55 carries no torch above the 600 when it comes to handling, they both have similar power, why have a firmer ride in the 55? It may give you a better "feel" it does nothing for me personally. That is why if one day I had the chance I would ask them ( I already have) to replace AMG springs with Merc ABC springs, cost is around 3k GBP. I wouldn't ask them to make ALL SL55's ride smoother, (not unless I was a person of power and influence) just make mine a smoothie.

Even though I am comfort biased, I could not live if my car didn't have the supercharged V8 in it, only in SL55 guise please due to the exhaust. Now I should stick to 600's but they're not special enough as an AMG.

Anyways, back to the topic at hand. The thing is, this argument will go on forever, it is a tug of war between E55 owners who want comfort-biased type of cars and with the E55 community you represent. AMG is in the middle. There is absolutely NO reason why AMG shouldn't build cars like you want. Under Unique manufacturing they could probably build an M5 beater, only for you. The problem lies in where AMG decides to move. If they move to our side, they'll lose you, and vice versa. On the evidence of their cars, it seems they are perfectly in the middle, and thats fine as is, for me personally.


BMW and Audi are more hardcore cars for the ultimate enthusiasts. They have hard ride and vicious characters. If this type of car suits you, why need to have an AMG car that can do this as well? AMG offers something different in this market segment, that is entirely comfort based. Let me add, a more sporting AMG car would come at the expense of comfort, no questions about it

jeeze, I've had enough of this...I forfeit my future arguments...

AMGB

I totally agree with Bilal comments. By the way, thanks for the info about the future transmission of AMG on the other board.

I work with auto companies. DaimlerChrysler is one of our clients. MB in Australia and Mexico is one our our clients as well. And, sales is what drives the way a car is built and nothing else.
Why did DCX build concept cars, to generate traffic at the dealership to sell PT Cruisers and 300C. They also do it to increase the franchise's value. But making a great handling car does not mean more sales.

For instance, Toyota did a study on the Camry when they started selling well. When they ask their customers what they wanted, performance was 16th on their list. So when the next model came out, they only increased the horsepower by 5hp and concentrated on quietness and quality. And look at the Camry now, #1 in sales. Now, Toyota makes money on the Camry and can spend more money in other areas, and maybe some in performance.

You cannot believe how hard the car companies try to predict what the overall people will buy and not what the overall people would want.

So, MB makes a great balance in luxury and now great performance in the real world streets. That is the balance I want, and that is why AMG sales are so high.

P.S. We also work with BMW, and believe me, they would trade some performance right now(5 series) to outsell the E-class. ThE-Class in its 3rd model year is still outselling the new 5-series.

amgB

Bilal

Thank you! Don't mention it. DSG is the logical next step. Auto when you want and SMG when you feel like it. It would make their cars complete, coupled to a big torquey V8....there I go explaining what I want from AMG.... :p

On a serious note, does anyone think that when a CVT transmission arrives in a very powerful car it will make acceleration dependant on top end power? Will torque be rendered usless? I have no expereince with CVT transmission, so please be patient. If a CVT is found to handle the torque of the 65 AMG engine, will it make it faster than it is currently?

reggid

look at it this way if there are two cars and one has 500hp@6000rpm and the other 400hp@6000rpm the 500hp has more torque at 6000rpm so torque is not useless. It is likely that bottom end torque will still be good for normal driving conditions but will be useless in a race since the engine and transmission will be trying to always put as much power to the road as possible which is at the topend. Its a bit like a turbo diesel what use is having peak torque at 1500rpm if you like revving engines out to 5000rpm all the time you wouldn't be utilising the engine fully.

As everyone knows torque and power are related so its not wise to talk about them as though they are unrelated to each other.

Bilal

I agree, its just so hard to explain their difference. They both give you acceleration in some sort of form.

The question now is, what if the car with 400bhp at 6000rpm uses forced induction and has more torque at 6000rpm as opposed to the 500bhp engine? I know its very difficult to maintain torque at high revs as it starts dropping off with most engines as peak power takes over.

So what if the 400bhp engine with FI has lets say 800NM lower down the rev range and this starts dropping off at 6000rpm, but you still get some 600NM at this area of the rev range. The 500bhp engine in comparison has a steady 500-600NM throughout the rev range, but at peak power point is only developing 400NM. Firstly, is this possible?

Secondly, if so, then if both engine are put into cars with equal weights and both have a CVt transmission....

Which car will accelerate more?


Which car will have the higher top end speed?

***(providing they have similar CW values and tire sizes and frontal areas and weight, basically identical cars with two different engines...)