sdg1871

Correct. And in fact getting performance mods installed by a MB dealer probably raises the chance that a warranty claim will be denied because of the mods. That dealer then knows you car is modded.

PeterUbers

Amen -- some forum goers on mbworld wax lyrically about how their mods are covered under warranty because their Benz stealership installed them yada yada...

Nope! Incorrect! And don't start crying mag-moss on me either i have yet to read about a person winning their case against a car manufacturer who is denying warranty claim.... thanks to citing magnussen moss

rory breaker

Wow....gotta love the internet. Even on a forum like this where the majority are mature, the mob mentality always exists to some extent and everyone is an expert I guess right? I don't proclaim to know it all, but what I do know is from personal experience...this not my first rodeo.

Normally I just wouldn't respond but in case anyone searching later wants the facts...

Fact - Dealerships do NOT set the t's and c's of an OEM's warranty

Fact - Some dealerships DO choose to sell, install, AND WARRANTY certain products

Fact - Historically this has most commonly been Renntech (they are the only ones I'm aware of, as they are the only ones I've had PERSONAL experience with - versus other folks who speak about others experiences as if they were their own - but there may be others on a much smaller scale, I do not know)

Fact - MB is well aware of some dealerships selling, installing and warrantying Renntech products

Fact - In order to support this warranty, a dealership doing the above is required to staff (3yrs ago it was 2, I don't know if that's changed) techs who have been trained to install and service Renntech modifications. Because of the ongoing cost associated with this, that's why most dealerships do not opt to do it

Fact - The dealers who provide this guarantee choose to do so at their own risk. Remember, dealerships are not corporate owned, they are franchisees who operate under a franchise agreement, but ultimately have some leniency in some areas to encourage differentiation in competitive markets. This is one of those areas.

Fact - If you take your car to another dealer that has NOT guaranteed your warranty work with the above mods, they have every right to deny your claim if they feel the modification caused the issue, and send you back to the dealer who did the install saying "go talk to them!"

Fact - AMG themselves have chosen to be very lenient in ensuring that Renntech dealerships have hands on support from them to ensure the enthusiast population within the AMG community has the best possible experience when choosing to engage in the above program

The above information is from a consolidation of personal experiences with MB corporate, the AMG training group, a dealership GM, and a Renntech-enabled dealership themselves. Not what I read on a messageboard then spit as facts like some others. Some of this information may have changed over time, but this is what I have learned from various interactions, listening and learning.

The most recent, and most explicit, being the dealership themselves installing RT and guaranteeing their support of MB's (note how that's phrased) OEM warranty in their dealership, with the mods, this week.

Hope that helps some folks.

abcut973

Not trying to start a fight here but I'll just post these threads from AMG private lounge as informational:

http://www.mercedes-amg.com/privatel...=1#post1228131

http://www.mercedes-amg.com/privatel...l=1#post897442

http://www.mercedes-amg.com/privatel...l=1#post899902

rory breaker

Not a fight, we all benefit from the discussion as long as it stays civil.

That is absolutely correct - MB, the holder of the original equipment manufacturer (OEM) warranty, CAN deny a warranty claim on an RT car. As some pointed out earlier, there is a precedence set here on whether or not that will hold up, but certainly they can deny it. Case law isn't the point here so let's not go there, the point is that should a dealer perform warranty related service on an RT car with documented RT mods, MB could certainly deny coverage.

If a dealer chooses to service a car and provide a warranty for a Renntech tune, they can, they will, and they will put it in writing as the AMG Chief Editor suggests. It's THEM warrantying the car, as a dealership, with their resources and their staff to fix it on their dime.

MB corporate would like to think they have ultimate control over their network of dealers but it simply isn't true. Franchisees are their customers, we are the end customer, and there is a whole world of politics behind dealers/OEM relations that goes waaaaaay deeper than most of us will ever know. This is the main reason Tesla wants to shift the model to corporate owned stores, so they don't have to deal with the politics of the traditional franchise dealer model. Since in the current model, dealers have a tremendous amount of pull (such as the case where they choose to warranty a modified vehicle themselves and take on that cost while MB looks the other way).

If penalties were as severe as he suggests, why would ANY MB dealer risk their business to do it? Dealers advertise their support of Renntech openly. Like Mr Vetter couldn't do a quick google search and do something about it if he's so appalled? That doesn't happen, because the dealers are NOT risking their business. Dealers have leeway here should they choose it, it's on their own dime.

Again, this is coming from real world experience, not a thread I have read on the internet where someone says something so it's gospel, which could happen when people read a thread like the above without more context. There's always more to it, and to that point any and all of this could change at any moment, but these are the facts as I have experienced them, not listened or read about them.

abcut973

That is actually good to know that authorized dealerships will stand behind their installs against MB corporate recommendation. I think they can do it knowing Renntech has been around for a while and has put good R&D in their products. So reliability is there.
I'm curious to know what issue did you experience proven to be due to a modification and that was covered by the dealership?

rory breaker

This particular case was described to me directly from the folks at AMG that made the call to support the owner (and similarly, the dealer) despite the clear indication in the logs that the car was modified.

And yes you're right...ask one of those dealerships how many times they have had to eat the cost on an RT warranty repair. Slim to never. If it didn't make $, it wouldn't make sense. The reason MB needs to say their stance is so strong is because this opens the door for all sorts of gaming (which exists on multiple levels) in terms of dealerships looking the other way and repairing a car they shouldn't, under warranty, with MB Corporate footing the bill for something they, by their t's and c's, shouldn't have to. Can't have that.

TTA850

Thanks for posting this information, and to see it coming from the AMG team themselves - one reason people keep trying to sell me on Renntech is they claim to not void the warranty but obviously that's not the case. I've always felt you can't be afraid to pay if you want to play with performance parts, just hope you go with the best made parts and best tuners to have the least problems. I had MBH headers, catless x-pipe, ROW boxes with K&N filters, and OE tune on my C63 for 27k miles (pretty hard ones too) and it never missed a beat. Hope to do as much research as I can to hopefully be as lucky with my E63.

Nanook

Very nice..luv the color !!

rory breaker

Exactly...modifying these cars you have to be willing it to accept the risk, anything can change, MB may decide to prioritize this and toughen up, or the other way, or nothing...who knows. I remember your C was a bit of a freak, excited to see what you do with the E.

While we are on the topic of dispelling forum myths - no matter what a tuner tells you, AMG can (and has) detected tunes that claim to "leave no trace." In the event of something catastrophic where AMG would get hands on w a warranty claim...they will find it, and (especially if you didn't tell them) they will exercise their right to deny. No hiding when the right folks get involved.

Nanook

I have the Renntech tune and have had zero issues....I'm sure AMS is a worthy consideration as well..

Lenin

Of course the tune can be detected. It's like comparing two files. Maybe an MB dealer does not have the expertise, but the factory has the tools for it for sure. More than that. Renntech can do it and EC can do it. The files are encrypted but they are still different.

rory breaker

Definitely. What I am referring to is the claims that some tuners make around how, via handheld flash capability (which we do not have available for the M157 at the moment that I'm aware of), that the tune can go totally undetected since they do not require any ECU modification, drilling/smoothing over, etc it's just a load via OBD.

IE "run the tune, and you can flash back to stock anytime when you bring to the dealer for service."

If AMG gets ahold of the ECU, they will be able to identify the anomalies if the dealer can't themselves.

jmg1848

or don't mod your car...they are quite potent as is

PeterUbers

amen .. i thought i was crazy for NOT considering a tune.. but i get why people want to do it

sdg1871

The M157 engine is one of the most tunable engines in the world among production engines. There is almost no other engine I am aware of that with a simple tune such as that from Renntech that can gain 124 horsepower and 249 lbs-ft of torque from the stock rating. With just a tune you can have a five passenger family sedan that will stomp a Ferrari 458 or a McLaren 12C in a straight-line race. To me that kind of power is hard to resist. But to each their own.

rory breaker

Agreed - bang for the buck for the tune is insane. To have a 700/850 car for just a few grand more...can't fight it!

PeterUbers

I agree ... It's very impressive

sdg1871

Yes, especially the torque gain. I am not sure of a single production car with a gas powered motor that makes 839 lbs-ft stock short of a Veyron, a Hennesey Venom GT or a Agera (and all of those are in excess of $1 million) and a Porsche 918 (close to $1 million if you can even find one close to MSR)P:

http://www.autosnout.com/Car-Torque-List.php

http://blog.dupontregistry.com/featu...s-most-torque/

PeterUbers

It makes it all the more interesting to imagine if the 4.0TT will have similar headroom after a tune

sdg1871

I really doubt it due to the much smaller displacement that the 5.5 L M157. But one can dream.

rory breaker

Audi + their aftermarket are doing amazing things with their 4.0TT in that realm (700+/700+)...I bet AMG will not be outdone there. Will be interesting to see.

sdg1871

I can't see the 4.0L TT V8 even with a tune making the kind of torque the tuned M157 engine makes. But we will see what the Renntechs of the world come up with.

PeterUbers

It is nice to know it I get bored of the stock power I can do the renntech tune at any time

I would just hope the day to day driving does not change

sdg1871

I have never heard any Renntech tune customer complain about lack of daily drivability nor have I heard such a complaint from any AMS tune customer.
I will certainly let the board know what I think about that in late January after my car arrives.