Biturbo...initial thoughts
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'03 E55, Range Rover Sport Supercharged, Ducati 748R
Biturbo...initial thoughts
Ive been away from the boards for a while and recently come back and didn't see much talk from guys that moved from the supercharged motor to the TT.
It's been a long time since I played with my first turbo car, an '86 Dodge Conquest (rebadged Mitsubishi Starion). It was fun making that little 2.6L 4 banger take out Cameros and 5.0s of the day. Back then we used brass mechanical boost valves and makeshift bypass valves. Turbo lag was crazy, especially with the upgraded larger turbo. It was fun but no matter how well you got used to anticipating the power surge it was still unpredictable.
Turbo lag today, especially on these larger displacement applications has gotten infinitely better, as I expected, but it is still there...and I still don't like it. I know that turbos are much more efficient at making power and I know without a doubt this biturbo will be faster than either of my E55s but the power application of a supercharged motor is something I will definitely miss. Instant, constant, consistent, and predictable power. I always knew where I was in the throttle and didn't have to anticipate for or recover from a power delivery.
I know this car is better in every way to the 55 platform and vendor support is already well beyond the first 7 years of the trials and errors we went through making or sourcing our own parts for the 55s. I'm sure I'll come to enjoy it as much as I did the old motor but I just wanted to share some initial thoughts with the board. I'm sure I'll get flamed by some for expressing my opinion but that's never bothered me in the past. I look forward to some mild modding and 1/4mile testing in the near future.
It's been a long time since I played with my first turbo car, an '86 Dodge Conquest (rebadged Mitsubishi Starion). It was fun making that little 2.6L 4 banger take out Cameros and 5.0s of the day. Back then we used brass mechanical boost valves and makeshift bypass valves. Turbo lag was crazy, especially with the upgraded larger turbo. It was fun but no matter how well you got used to anticipating the power surge it was still unpredictable.
Turbo lag today, especially on these larger displacement applications has gotten infinitely better, as I expected, but it is still there...and I still don't like it. I know that turbos are much more efficient at making power and I know without a doubt this biturbo will be faster than either of my E55s but the power application of a supercharged motor is something I will definitely miss. Instant, constant, consistent, and predictable power. I always knew where I was in the throttle and didn't have to anticipate for or recover from a power delivery.
I know this car is better in every way to the 55 platform and vendor support is already well beyond the first 7 years of the trials and errors we went through making or sourcing our own parts for the 55s. I'm sure I'll come to enjoy it as much as I did the old motor but I just wanted to share some initial thoughts with the board. I'm sure I'll get flamed by some for expressing my opinion but that's never bothered me in the past. I look forward to some mild modding and 1/4mile testing in the near future.
Last edited by chiromikey; Mar 10, 2016 at 12:39 PM.
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From: Palatine, IL
Speedriven
I don't agree with you about the lag, honestly, but I will say that I don't think the same potential is there with the biturbo platform (specifically, the 7 speed trans.). If you want a fast car and a toy, built the 55K's engine, build the trans., recon the interior and paint, and for a lot less money you can have a 1000+ HP blower car that will have (essentially) a 0 mile drivetrain.
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'03 E55, Range Rover Sport Supercharged, Ducati 748R
It's not just more torque, but the way that is always instantly and consistently delivered. Maybe once I get a few mods and a tune I'll get to like the power delivery a little better.
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2024 c300 , 2006 E55, 2005 e320, 2007 gl450, 2025 glc300, 2025 e450
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E63
I think its instant torque that the superchargers have over turbo charged ones cos the turboed cars (at least comparing the E55 to E63) have waaaay more torque
Last edited by kponti; Mar 10, 2016 at 01:42 PM.
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From: Canada
2004 E55 AMG
Doesn't the tune vs tune comparisons of car E55 vs E63 TT
makes more torque?
Maybe it's the un-refinement of the E55 which gives the "impression" of ruthless power where as E63 delivers "don't worry we got this"
E55 is more like "I'ma kill them all" ..
To be honest since my car only has a tune/sc pulley/Bigger HE - I would swap cars in an instant because tune/down pipes/filter is all I will get on the TT as well. Plus better fuel mileage (i know -no one buys these cars for that but I get great mileage from my E55 cause I rarely get to engage the SC)
makes more torque?
Maybe it's the un-refinement of the E55 which gives the "impression" of ruthless power where as E63 delivers "don't worry we got this"
E55 is more like "I'ma kill them all" ..
To be honest since my car only has a tune/sc pulley/Bigger HE - I would swap cars in an instant because tune/down pipes/filter is all I will get on the TT as well. Plus better fuel mileage (i know -no one buys these cars for that but I get great mileage from my E55 cause I rarely get to engage the SC)
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From: Kuwait
CLS55 2006, CLS 63S 2015
chiro what model year are you running?
also to take note, the bi turbo is deceptively fast. Just look at the speedo too compare, it does not make the drama a 55k would, but it does get going
I agree my moded 55k feels more violent
Which is faster, I can not tell for sure, but have a feeling the biturbo is in stock format
i have yet to perfect the ability to duplicate my self to do a side by side
, but i should really do it to find out
also to take note, the bi turbo is deceptively fast. Just look at the speedo too compare, it does not make the drama a 55k would, but it does get going
I agree my moded 55k feels more violent
Which is faster, I can not tell for sure, but have a feeling the biturbo is in stock format
i have yet to perfect the ability to duplicate my self to do a side by side
, but i should really do it to find out
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Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,649
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'03 E55, Range Rover Sport Supercharged, Ducati 748R
chiro what model year are you running?
also to take note, the bi turbo is deceptively fast. Just look at the speedo too compare, it does not make the drama a 55k would, but it does get going
I agree my moded 55k feels more violent
Which is faster, I can not tell for sure, but have a feeling the biturbo is in stock format
i have yet to perfect the ability to duplicate my self to do a side by side, but i should really do it to find out
also to take note, the bi turbo is deceptively fast. Just look at the speedo too compare, it does not make the drama a 55k would, but it does get going
I agree my moded 55k feels more violent
Which is faster, I can not tell for sure, but have a feeling the biturbo is in stock format
i have yet to perfect the ability to duplicate my self to do a side by side
, but i should really do it to find out
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From: Toronto
CLS63 PP
Exactly what others have said...the delivery of instant torque from a PD blower. My W219 with a 190mm crank pulley definitely felt faster off the hit, but the torque of the turbos just swells over revs. My CTS-V was near 700 whp and was a violent monster any time you got on it at any RPM or gear. You definitely have to consider the whole package though. In every way the w218 is better than the w219 I had. Handles better, feels more soid, way better interior and function. About the only thing I wish I would have done, was gotten a 2014 s for the AWD up here in Canada.
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2014 E63S; AMS 100 octane ECU dyno tune; EDOK TCU tune; BB intakes; sprintbooster
I totally agree the power delivery of the biturbo is laggy down low... I recall the e55 being instant smile while the biturbo I have to look down at the speedometer to realize I'm about to get arrested because I'm going so fast but it didn't feel like I was
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From: Canada
2004 E55 AMG
So yeah, it's all about un-refinement in E55 and refined power of E63 with turbo. E55 is more like "I'll murder ya'll" and E63 -is more like "he won't know where he got hit" lol
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Joined: Jan 2007
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From: Kuwait
CLS55 2006, CLS 63S 2015
and to the guys with the rwd....if you came from a 55k and got the awd 63s..am serious...first thing i said to my self was...this thing does not need moding
How long that last thoughs is yet to be seen X-)
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From: miami / delray beach
2014 E63s amg 4matic, 2009 C63, 2006 E55 AMG , 2001.5 AUDI S4 stg 3+ w/meth
...then got upd airbox, and now looking for true turbo-back downpipes
will keep stock turbos until my CPO warranty runs out, plus it doesnt seem like any of the off the shelf turbo swaps improve acceleration much until after about 110-120+ mph, which by then i shut it down on the street anyways (most of the time) though i have found that 150mph comes up deceptively quick in these cars and all of the sudden i look to speedo and realize i am going a lot faster than i thought lol
Last edited by gaspam; Mar 12, 2016 at 05:35 PM.
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From: Buffalo
13' GL450
Bump, for bringing up an old thread. I am pondering meth injection for cooling purposes as well. I have a 13 gl450 with stage 1 tune from OE Tuning. OE claims I should be seeing 18psi max. I put it hat number to the test. Downloaded the torque pro app and seen a max psi of 12 with about 80*F IAT at cold start up with ambient air approx 68*F. Decided to tap into my intake manifold with an actual boost gauge to double check boost numbers. The torque app was spot on with the boost gauge. I am unsure of what IAT numbers the gl450 starts pulling timing. At the track with ambient air temps of approx 82*F and sitting in the staging lanes with engine on Im at about 111*f IAT. Then down track in seeing max boost of 9 psi. Im hoping this meth injection method will work for me and lower my IATs therefore maybe producing the max boost that OE claims.
