E63 AWD vs cls63 RWD roll race
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CLS63 AMG
it also makes sense if 4matic has less moving parts than Quattro that it should be more efficient it's simple.
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2014 E63s amg 4matic, 2009 C63, 2006 E55 AMG , 2001.5 AUDI S4 stg 3+ w/meth
probably the extra 165 + lbs the awd has vs rwd... at higher speed with increases wind resistant , every incrimental mph is harder to gain and if you're carrying another 165lbs + then each mph is that much harder to gain
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I know Audi used Torsen center diff's in many of their earlier models, but the Audi RS7 ( that ~compares with the S63 AMG ) actually uses a design similar to the 4MATIC, with a planetary gear with torque bias. There is a good animation 1 min into this video:
"www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7Q-KIKPrgA"
I have a Torsen in the rear of my Rx7, and a few trips to the local road course would turn the synth diff oil black from the heat ... but that's from a lot of cornering with a lot of throttle.
"www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7Q-KIKPrgA"
I have a Torsen in the rear of my Rx7, and a few trips to the local road course would turn the synth diff oil black from the heat ... but that's from a lot of cornering with a lot of throttle.
Last edited by kevink2; Dec 25, 2016 at 11:37 PM.
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CLS63 AMG
I know Audi used Torsen center diff's in many of their earlier models, but the Audi RS7 ( that ~compares with the S63 AMG ) actually uses a design similar to the 4MATIC, with a planetary gear with torque bias. There is a good animation 1 min into this video:
"www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7Q-KIKPrgA"
I have a Torsen in the rear of my Rx7, and a few trips to the local road course would turn the synth diff oil black from the heat ... but that's from a lot of cornering with a lot of throttle.
"www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7Q-KIKPrgA"
I have a Torsen in the rear of my Rx7, and a few trips to the local road course would turn the synth diff oil black from the heat ... but that's from a lot of cornering with a lot of throttle.
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Thanks for the correction Amg63, it's a typo .. I meant E63 AMG, which has been the subject of this thread.
I was answering this reply by gaspam, to my post 41, about whether he thought the E63 AMG 4MATIC had a center diff .
I knew the Mercedes had a center diff, but in a pm, you did not believe me based on this quote from gaspam " its doesnt have a center diff ..." which was taken out of context. I hope it is clear now.
The point of my prior reply should not be lost here. The RS7 QUATTRO awd center diff is NOT a Torsen, it is actually very similar to the E63 4MATIC AMG center diff (perhaps the design patent ran out). So there is little difference in losses there, comparing the two.
BTW, the Torsen does have many parts (actually gears), but it is the high friction (by design) when active that creates relatively high losses in the form of heat
.
I was answering this reply by gaspam, to my post 41, about whether he thought the E63 AMG 4MATIC had a center diff .
Originally Posted by gaspam
perhaps my vernacular was confusing , what i meant was the 4 matic center diff is not like the quattro one... quattro is torsen diff and our is open diff
The point of my prior reply should not be lost here. The RS7 QUATTRO awd center diff is NOT a Torsen, it is actually very similar to the E63 4MATIC AMG center diff (perhaps the design patent ran out). So there is little difference in losses there, comparing the two.
BTW, the Torsen does have many parts (actually gears), but it is the high friction (by design) when active that creates relatively high losses in the form of heat
.
Last edited by kevink2; Dec 26, 2016 at 11:56 AM.
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CLS63 AMG
Thanks for the correction Amg63, it's a typo .. I meant E63 AMG, which has been the subject of this thread.
I was answering this reply by gaspam, to my post 41, about whether he thought the E63 AMG 4MATIC had a center diff .
I knew the Mercedes had a center diff, but in a pm, you did not believe me based on this quote from gaspam " its doesnt have a center diff ..." which was taken out of context. I hope it is clear now.
I was answering this reply by gaspam, to my post 41, about whether he thought the E63 AMG 4MATIC had a center diff .
I knew the Mercedes had a center diff, but in a pm, you did not believe me based on this quote from gaspam " its doesnt have a center diff ..." which was taken out of context. I hope it is clear now.
It seems like in the reply above you were saying the Quattro system in the rs7 is a very similar design to the 4matic system in the E63. I'm curious to know what it is that makes them so similar?
it seems as of now that the open diff setup on 4matic is at least one difference it has that makes it a more efficient AWD system than the Quattro found in the RS7 as gaspam meant to say earlier. Not sure what other differences they have and would be interesting to get more info on this.
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See my reply above for all your questions. That reply lagged yours due to my editing. I also answered this question yesterday, post 53.
Last edited by kevink2; Dec 26, 2016 at 12:06 PM.
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CLS63 AMG
Well then I'm sure they must have some differences we just don't know about right now.
The RS7 with equal modding does show itself to be slower at higher speeds than the E63
perhaps it's not because of the differences in the efficiency of the AWD systems they use, and it's for other reasons.
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From: miami / delray beach
2014 E63s amg 4matic, 2009 C63, 2006 E55 AMG , 2001.5 AUDI S4 stg 3+ w/meth
the difference in the RS7 quattro vs older quattro is the newer uses crown gear differential vs torson in the older quattro... the crown gear differential allows variable torque splits, This differential uses wet clutch plates activated by worm gears to progressively shift torque between the axles.... its still more moving parts than 4matic hence why 4matic weights something like 30% less than quattro.... the original point remains as to why our awd system doesnt cause as much driveline loss some other systems... that doesnt necessarily make one better than the other though as many would argue that quattro is best for what it was originally designed for, traction in less than perfect surfaces like hauling *** around a WRC circuit in dirt and snow 
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Now I'm not sure where that audi planetary center diff was used, but I agree on the system you posted for the latest RS7. This is a great video of that latest Audi RS7 awd system, with crowned gears:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_09y...ature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_09y...ature=youtu.be
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CLS63 AMG
No wonder E63S traps higher and pulls on an equally modded RS7 from a highway roll. All makes sense now as our AWD is permanently fixed torque split while the Quattro is more complex with its variable torque split AWD system.
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CLS63 AMG
So the video showed a PP rwd vs Non-S AWD. With AWD being same torque level with S it's likely it would never get caught by the RWD from a dig.
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just wanted to clarify we have noticed the brakes in the E63 in the video against the RWD are the standard grey calipers and not the red calipers which have to come on the S model.
So the video showed a PP rwd vs Non-S AWD. With AWD being same torque level with S it's likely it would never get caught by the RWD from a dig.
So the video showed a PP rwd vs Non-S AWD. With AWD being same torque level with S it's likely it would never get caught by the RWD from a dig.
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I wonder how many people would not buy the E63 if the only option available was the E63S, so essentially what percentage of overall E63 buyers would not buy the car if they have the spring for a little more car and could only choose the S.
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E55 AMG & C63 AMG
With that logic - an RS7 with similar mods should pull the E63... considering the torque split can be switched to a more RWD-bias.....
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CLS63 AMG
Makes sense to me.
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